Dispensationalism

[marks]

Ezekiel 36:24-38 KJV
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[marks]

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[PinSeeker]

The Church of Jesus Christ is the Israel of God. But the Church has not "replaced" anything. The people of God in the Old Testament are the Israelites, for sure, and for the most part ethnic Jews ~ some foreigners were welcomed in along the way, foreshadowing the grafting in of Gentiles in the New Testament. But that is not to say the Church has "replaced" anything, but that God's people are no longer just ethnic Jews, but including both ethnic Jews and Gentiles. Christ "has made us both one and has broken down in His flesh the dividing wall of hostility" (Ephesians 2:14), and "all are one in Christ Jesus... Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:28-29) Paul speaks of who are true Jews at the end of Romans 2:

"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)​

Together, we make up the whole of God's Israel. As Paul also says: "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:25-26). And as the writer of Hebrews (possibly Paul) says, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2). There is no "replacement," but rather inclusion; this was always the intention by God.

To answer to the original post, there are not five, or seven dispensations ~ even dispensationalists disagree on how many dispensations there are ~ but only one. God has never and never will deal with people in different ways at different times. Hebrews 1:1-2, cited above, speaks to this, too; He spoke by the prophets to our fathers (in copies/types and shadows, Hebrews 8:5), but since then He has spoken to us by His Son (the Real Thing, Jesus), but He said the same things. Even Jesus said on several occasions that Moses and the prophets all wrote of Him, essentially saying that all of Scripture is about Him (Luke 16:31, John 5:46, Luke 24:44). I once heard a sermon where the pastor referred to dispensationalism in a tongue-in-cheek manner as "a series of Plan Bs," as if God said, "Well, that didn't work, so let me try this," several times over. There was never a Plan B (or a second, third, or fourth Plan B... or a Plan C, D, E, or F or G, if you prefer that...). There was only ever a Plan A. God never changes. He is the same always. He is the great I AM.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[marks]

I once heard a sermon where the pastor referred to dispensationalism in a tongue-in-cheek manner as "a series of Plan Bs," as if God said, "Well, that didn't work, so let me try this," several times over. There was never a Plan B (or a second, third, or fourth Plan B... or a Plan C, D, E, or F or G, if you prefer that...). There was only ever a Plan A.

For myself, I don't think of dispensational differences to show a "plan A" and "plan B" or the like.

Do you believe the promises to Jacob/Israel in Jeremiah will be kept? In Isaiah and Ezekiel, that the remaining Israelites will be returned to their promised land, all of them, in salvation forever?

Much love!

 

[farouk]

For myself, I don't think of dispensational differences to show a "plan A" and "plan B" or the like.

Do you believe the promises to Jacob/Israel in Jeremiah will be kept? In Isaiah and Ezekiel, that the remaining Israelites will be returned to their promised land, all of them, in salvation forever?

Much love!

@marks It's as much about Who? as it is about What?

The church and Israel in Scripture are manifestly not the same. 1 Corinthians 11.26 is linked with the church, not Israel.

 

[marks]

To answer to the original post, there are not five, or seven dispensations ~ even dispensationalists disagree on how many dispensations there are ~ but only one. God has never and never will deal with people in different ways at different times.

How do you account for animal sacrifices? Why are they not offered now?

Another question . . . If it is true that God always deals with all people in the same way, why did only Israel receive the Word of God? And what about before they did?

I'm not trying "pin the tail on the dispensation", I'm hoping to present an opportunity to see dispensations in the Bible without the baggage people want to hang on it.

God gave Adam a garden and a command that He did not give to others, which is it's own "dispensing" from God to Adam of those things, and what came through them.

God gave Moses and Israel a Law He had not given to others, this also is it's own dispensing" from God to Adam of those things, and what came through them.

Your thoughts?

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

For myself, I don't think of dispensational differences to show a "plan A" and "plan B" or the like.

Um, but that's what they are, really.

Do you believe the promises to Jacob/Israel in Jeremiah will be kept?

Yes, of course; all God's promises have their 'yes' in Christ. This is what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:20, and it really wraps up everything I'm about to say in this entire post. That may sound ridiculous, but...

Okay. The root of the issue is a misunderstanding of who Israel really is. God's true Israel never was, is not, and never will be physical in nature. I mean, it was, is, and forever will be made up of physical... people... ... but not physical in the sense of ethnicity. Again, we can get a clear idea about who makes up God's Israel from... well, several places, really, but as clearly as anywhere else from what Paul says in Romans 2 and Romans 9-11. And, well, Ephesians 1 and 2, and Galatians 3... "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:28-29). THIS is God's true Israel. And in Hebrews 1:1-2, we read, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." See, marks? He used a different method of speaking, spoke through different means, but He did not say different things, really. See? Jesus said all of Scripture was about Him (John 5:46, Luke 24:44). Okay, I'm sort of jumping ahead a bit here. Read on:

In Isaiah and Ezekiel, that the remaining Israelites will be returned to their promised land, all of them, in salvation forever?

Hmmm, well, this had an immediate fulfillment ~ when the Israelites returned from exile ~ and will have an ultimate fulfillment ~ when Jesus returns. The first is a type/shadow, so lesser Israel (mostly ethnic Jews), and the second is the real thing, greater Israel (people of every tongue tribe, and nation that no one can number). Jesus is the Greater David, the True Ruler ~ King ~ of God's Israel. We can do the same thing with the promised land; there is a lesser iteration, and a greater iteration, the former being a type/shadow of the latter. And regarding the greater, Jesus said, marks, that the meek shall inherit... Well, shall inherit not a tiny strip of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, but rather the whole earth (Matthew 5:5). This immediate fulfillment and ultimate fulfillment thing, the lesser and greater thing, the type/shadow and real thing thing... : )... This is the pattern throughout Scripture, and is how we should separate the Old Testament and the New Testament. Not to say there's really a difference, per se, but that what is spoken of in the New Testament is the greater reality that the Old Testament pointed to.

How do you account for animal sacrifices? Why are they not offered now?

I hope our answers to this would be the same, marks. More than this could certainly be said, but the writer of Hebrews is very clear in chapter 7 of his epistle that "...on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." What is this "better hope," marks? Or more appropriately, Who is this "better hope?" Well, of course it's Jesus, Who said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). You know this; Jesus is the Lamb of God. Jesus offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, Himself, and then sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12). Like I said, I think this answer would come from dispensationalists and covenant theology folks alike... at least I hope so... Maybe you posed this as a rhetorical question...?

Another question . . . If it is true that God always deals with all people in the same way, why did only Israel receive the Word of God? And what about before they did?

Well, here I would go back to what I said above, about the disagreement between us, apparently, about who Israel really is. As Paul says, "(n)ot all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.' This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring." And that includes Gentiles, marks, then and today.

I'm not trying "pin the tail on the dispensation", I'm hoping to present an opportunity to see dispensations in the Bible without the baggage people want to hang on it.

Ha! "pin the tail on the dispensation"... that's funny. But I say there is really only one "dispensation," marks, slowly revealing itself in new and better ways, and finally blossoming into the one, complete, everlasting Way.

God gave Adam a garden and a command that He did not give to others, which is it's own "dispensing" from God to Adam of those things, and what came through them. God gave Moses and Israel a Law He had not given to others, this also is it's own dispensing" from God to Adam of those things, and what came through them. Your thoughts?

Hmmmm, well, see above.

Grace and peace to you, marks.

 

[marks]

God gave Adam a garden and a command that He did not give to others, which is it's own "dispensing" from God to Adam of those things, and what came through them.

God gave Moses and Israel a Law He had not given to others, this also is it's own dispensing" from God to Adam of those things, and what came through them.

Your thoughts?

@PinSeeker

On this, the reason I'm presenting this little bit is to try to "re-imagine" with you the Biblical dispensationalism. Again, I think the baby gets thrown out with the bath water.

Yes, it is Jesus Christ being given to us at all times in all generations. The message to man from God, the means by which we receive God's promise, take Abraham for example,

Abraham believed God, and it (his belief) was accounted to him as righteousness. And what did Abraham believe? What was the message? That Jesus would come and die for his sins? That God would raise Abraham from death? No, that Abraham would have a multitude of descendants.

Can you count the stars? That's how your children will be!

God has given us different messages, all bringing us to Christ, but I'd have to disagree, not all saying the same things. Adam was told to not eat from that tree. But that was the only commandment. And none other were given until the Mosaic Law, and mankind was not imputed with sin until the Law was given. So then they sinned, and they died, but were not imputed with guilt.

After the giving of the Law, those who received it became guilty, condemned by it. So then the Law of God condemned one group of men, but not another group of men, because God gave this message to the first group, but not to the second group.

I'd have to say that the message changed, and with different effect. Not only did the message change, but the result of the message was condemnation where it had not existed before.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Okay. The root of the issue is a misunderstanding of who Israel really is. God's true Israel never was, is not, and never will be physical in nature. I mean, it was, is, and forever will be made up of physical... people... ... but not physical in the sense of ethnicity. Again, we can get a clear idea about who makes up God's Israel from... well, several places, really, but as clearly as anywhere else from what Paul says in Romans 2 and Romans 9-11. And, well, Ephesians 1 and 2, and Galatians 3... "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:28-29). THIS is God's true Israel. And in Hebrews 1:1-2, we read, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." See, marks? He used a different method of speaking, spoke through different means, but He did not say different things, really. See? Jesus said all of Scripture was about Him (John 5:46, Luke 24:44). Okay, I'm sort of jumping ahead a bit here. Read on:

All one in Christ, but what of those not in Christ? This is why I like to point to the land promises in the prophets. I think God's true Israel is the people to whom He gave the promised land to, the children of Jacob, the 12 tribes.

In Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, and so when a Jew becomes Christian they cease to be nationally designated, and are "in Christ", His kingdom.

However, not all of Isreal is saved. They will be, when Jesus returns, all of them.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

"for all that they have done", this is spoken to those who disobey the Lord, and some would say, they should be cast away because of it. God will not cast them away.

"shall cease from being a nation", did the sun rise? The moon continue in it's orbit? Then Israel remains a nation.

Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

"the captivity of Jacob", these are Jacob's children removed from the land, captive by the gentiles.

They will be led from captivity, to their own land, all of them, with God's Spirit upon all of them.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

"out of thy mouth, and the mouth of thy seed, or thy seed's seed . . . forever", this a promise to Jacob.

Each of these passages, and a number of others like them, seem very particular, very specific.

I accept them at face value, and believe they will be fulfilled in the regathering of Jacob's children to their promised land. Sure as night follows day.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Hmmm, well, this had an immediate fulfillment ~ when the Israelites returned from exile ~ and will have an ultimate fulfillment ~ when Jesus returns. The first is a type/shadow, so lesser Israel (mostly ethnic Jews), and the second is the real thing, greater Israel (people of every tongue tribe, and nation that no one can number). Jesus is the Greater David, the True Ruler ~ King ~ of God's Israel. We can do the same thing with the promised land; there is a lesser iteration, and a greater iteration, the former being a type/shadow of the latter. And regarding the greater, Jesus said, marks, that the meek shall inherit... Well, shall inherit not a tiny strip of land at the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea, but rather the whole earth (Matthew 5:5). This immediate fulfillment and ultimate fulfillment thing, the lesser and greater thing, the type/shadow and real thing thing... : )... This is the pattern throughout Scripture, and is how we should separate the Old Testament and the New Testament. Not to say there's really a difference, per se, but that what is spoken of in the New Testament is the greater reality that the Old Testament pointed to.

Reading this still leaves me with the same question though. Because in speaking of these particular prophecies, to me, it's a simple matter, whether the remaining alive Israelites - children of Jacob - will be returned to the promised land, being brought to faith and salvation, when Jesus returns. If yes, then the prophecies are fulfilled as written. If not, then they are either abrogated (which I don't believe) or are allegorical (which I don't believe).

Personally, I don't see an historical fulfillment, as I'm not aware of a time that the Israelites were regathered to the promised land in their entirety, permanently, in salvation, which is what is prophesied.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I hope our answers to this would be the same, marks. More than this could certainly be said, but the writer of Hebrews is very clear in chapter 7 of his epistle that "...on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." What is this "better hope," marks? Or more appropriately, Who is this "better hope?" Well, of course it's Jesus, Who said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). You know this; Jesus is the Lamb of God. Jesus offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, Himself, and then sat down at the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12). Like I said, I think this answer would come from dispensationalists and covenant theology folks alike... at least I hope so... Maybe you posed this as a rhetorical question...?

It almost IS rhetorical, but not really, because the answer proves the thing I want to show. We have a new covenant built on better promises. The covering of sin was the best they could have, and they did not receive rebirth. Things changed. That's dispensations.

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

Dispensationalism is of God:

By the covenants, and:

Matthew 15:24
“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Romans 1:16
The Jew first and also for the Greek.​

 

[marks]

Dispensationalism is of God:

By the covenants, and:

Matthew 15:24
“I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Romans 1:16
The Jew first and also for the Greek.​

Another simple example, thank you, Scott!

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

On this, the reason I'm presenting this little bit is to try to "re-imagine" with you the Biblical dispensationalism.

Yes, it is Jesus Christ being given to us at all times in all generations.

Sure.

God has given us different messages, all bringing us to Christ, but I'd have to disagree, not all saying the same things.

I think you mean "same things" in a much too literal way, there, marks. What I said was, He did not say different things, meaning, the things He said, though said in different ways, were not different in substance. Think of all of Jesus's "but-I-tell-you" statements. For example, He said, "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28). Was Jesus changing the seventh commandment into something entirely different than it used to be? No, He wasn't. He was telling them it was really something far greater than they ever imagined, a matter of the heart, rather than just the letter. Again, I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "same things," or actually, "not different things." Maybe now you understand.

Adam was told to not eat from that tree. But that was the only commandment. And none other were given until the Mosaic Law, and mankind was not imputed with sin until the Law was given. So then they sinned, and they died, but were not imputed with guilt. After the giving of the Law, those who received it became guilty, condemned by it. So then the Law of God condemned one group of men, but not another group of men, because God gave this message to the first group, but not to the second group. I'd have to say that the message changed, and with different effect. Not only did the message change, but the result of the message was condemnation where it had not existed before.

I think you're inadvertently conflating some things here, marks. I would just point this out: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." (Paul, Romans 5:12). This is the source of condemnation, and it applies to all men since creation ~ acquired by Adam, of course, in Genesis 3, but from conception for all who have come after. Even David, the man after God's own heart, said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." And Paul goes on to say that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

On the other hand, the Law was originally given to Moses and the Israelites as a grace of God, not a judgment. As the Psalmist says in Psalm 1, the man who is blessed when his "delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night." The Law was not given for condemnatory purposes, but for redemptive purposes. It was given in order to give the people of God guidelines on how to please God, and a means of their salvation... actually pointing to the true Means of redemption and salvation, Jesus Christ, and the same thing ~ the same thing ~ is true today. As Paul says, "...the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith ...we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith..." Paul also says, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4) and "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). And back to Jesus, Who clarified, concerning the Law, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:37-40).

This is a central misunderstanding regarding dispensationalism, marks. I say again, there is really only one "dispensation," marks, slowly revealing itself in, cumulatively new and better ways ~ the Mosaic Law being one of them ~ and finally blossoming into the one, complete, everlasting Way, Christ Jesus.

All one in Christ, but what of those not in Christ? This is why I like to point to the land promises in the prophets. I think God's true Israel is the people to whom He gave the promised land to, the children of Jacob, the 12 tribes.

Well, no offense, marks, but with all due respect, you're thinking far too small, my friend. That's not to say your observation is "bad," really, but, well, you're not thinking in the greater sense but only the lesser. Again, I point out Jesus's statement in Matthew 5:5, that "the meek shall inherit the earth."

As for the children of Jacob ~ Jacob was renamed Israel by God, you know ~ and the twelve tribes, I'm going to ask you from rhetorical questions (answers in all caps following the questions):

1. Who do you think John is "seeing" in Revelation 7?
ISRAEL

2. Who is Israel? Remember what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29, Romans 11:25-26, and Galatians 3:28-29.
ALL BELIEVERS, ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST

3. Who are the 144,000? I don't think you're a Jehovah's Witness, so I feel like you'll get that question right...
SAME AS #2

4. Is that 144,000 number a hard, literal 144,000 people?
NO

5. Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 a different group from the great multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation in Revelation 7:9-17?
NO

I really hope you answer 'no' to those last two questions...

In Christ is neither Jew nor Greek, and so when a Jew becomes Christian they cease to be nationally designated, and are "in Christ", His kingdom.

<chuckle> No, they're still ethnic Jews... But they become true Jews, in the sense of what Paul says in Romans 2:28-29.

However, not all of Isreal is saved. They will be, when Jesus returns, all of them.

Well you're right in that not all of Israel is saved. But again, you're misunderstanding who Israel really is. Yes, a partial hardening has come on Israel, as Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, until the full number of Gentile elect ~ that is what he's been talking about in Romans 9-11, God's elect ~ is brought in to Israel. Then the partial hardening will be removed. And this is how all Israel will be saved. By "all Israel," marks, he means all believers, all those of God's Israel. Again, I point out what he previously said in Romans 9:6, that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel." So I disagree that all ethnic Jews will be saved ~ just as I would disagree with anyone who might say all Gentiles will be saved ~ because not all ethnic Jews ~ neither all Gentiles ~ are or will be of God's Israel. I do believe ethnic Jews will come in large numbers to Christ just before Christ will return, as this will indicate that the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in. But no, not all Jews will be saved, only God's elect.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
Ezekiel 39:25-29 KJV
Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
Each of these passages, and a number of others like them, seem very particular, very specific. I accept them at face value, and believe they will be fulfilled in the regathering of Jacob's children to their promised land. Sure as night follows day.

I agree; they are very particular and specific, and I agree with you on the face value thing. The lesser is absolutely there, but it points to the greater. And this is the central shortcoming of dispensational understanding of Scripture.

Grace and peace to you, marks!

 

[marks]

I think you mean "same things" in a much too literal way, there, marks. What I said was, He did not say different things, meaning, the things He said, though said in different ways, were not different in substance. Think of all of Jesus's "but-I-tell-you" statements. For example, He said, "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:27-28). Was Jesus changing the seventh commandment into something entirely different than it used to be? No, He wasn't. He was telling them it was really something far greater than they ever imagined, a matter of the heart, rather than just the letter. Again, I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "same things," or actually, "not different things." Maybe now you understand.

This isn't what I'm referring to.

Murder in act and murder in the mind are both about the same thing, the fleshiness against another person do destroy them, subject to condemnation.

Believing in our risen Lord and believing the promise for descendants are different in what they are, and were different in their effect. Abraham was imputed righteousness because He believed God.

We, just like faithful Abraham, believe God, His message to us, but His message is different, our Risen Lord, and not only does God impute to us righteousness, but we are also baptized into Christ, and regenerated, born again.

I think you're inadvertently conflating some things here, marks. I would just point this out: "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." (Paul, Romans 5:12). This is the source of condemnation, and it applies to all men since creation ~ acquired by Adam, of course, in Genesis 3, but from conception for all who have come after. Even David, the man after God's own heart, said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." And Paul goes on to say that "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Romans 8:1).

Romans 5:12-14 KJV
12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Adam was judicially guilty of disobeying God's command to not eat from that tree. No one after him and Eve had access to that tree, so no one could break that commandment.

Even so, they still sinned, and sin kills. However, those sins were not judicially imputed to them, as God had not given His commandments, and He doesn't hold people accountable when He has not given the commandment.

Sin was there, and they died because of it, but it was not counted against them, the commandment not yet being given.

After the commandment was given, sin was imputed, they broke God's Law.

On the other hand, the Law was originally given to Moses and the Israelites as a grace of God, not a judgment. As the Psalmist says in Psalm 1, the man who is blessed when his "delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night." The Law was not given for condemnatory purposes, but for redemptive purposes. It was given in order to give the people of God guidelines on how to please God, and a means of their salvation... actually pointing to the true Means of redemption and salvation, Jesus Christ, and the same thing ~ the same thing ~ is true today. As Paul says, "...the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith ...we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith..." Paul also says, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes" (Romans 10:4) and "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). And back to Jesus, Who clarified, concerning the Law, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets" (Matthew 22:37-40).

The Law is good, but people are depraved, and therefore the Law is a ministry of condemnation and death, because all break it, and are lawbreakers.

The salvific part of the law was the sacrifice. The rest did not save, it could not make you righteous. Even the sacrifice wouldn't make you righteous, it would only cover sins. But it DID cover them. Now, in Christ's sacrifice, sins are not just covered, they are sent away, as we are made righteous. Recreated righteous, that is.

Was Jesus changing the seventh commandment into something entirely different than it used to be? No, He wasn't. He was telling them it was really something far greater than they ever imagined, a matter of the heart, rather than just the letter. Again, I think you're misunderstanding what I mean by "same things," or actually, "not different things." Maybe now you understand.

There seems to me to be a substantial difference between the requirement of a daily and monthly and yearly and so on sacrifice, that must be perpetuated, to the once for all sacrifice of Christ. A sacrifice that could not remove sins and a sacrifice that could. A sacrifice that could not make you righteous and a sacrifice that does.

That all are saved as they believe God, that is our commonality. That God's message to us is different at times, that is the dispensationalism.

Stopping here . . . our posts are lengthening. Good discussion though, and I appreciate it!

Much love!

 

[marks]

This is a central misunderstanding regarding dispensationalism, marks. I say again, there is really only one "dispensation," marks, slowly revealing itself in, cumulatively new and better ways ~ the Mosaic Law being one of them ~ and finally blossoming into the one, complete, everlasting Way, Christ Jesus.

And maybe this is the simplicity, the "new and better ways", those are the dispensational differences I'm pointing to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well, no offense, marks, but with all due respect, you're thinking far too small, my friend. That's not to say your observation is "bad," really, but, well, you're not thinking in the greater sense but only the lesser. Again, I point out Jesus's statement in Matthew 5:5, that "the meek shall inherit the earth."

One does not negate the other.

Why should we think these prophecies will not be fulfilled as written? Both of them? Israel will live in their glorious kingdom in their promised land, AND the meek shall inherit the earth.

I think we should not be so quick to discount the plain sayings of prophecy. No offense meant!

As for the children of Jacob ~ Jacob was renamed Israel by God, you know ~ and the twelve tribes, I'm going to ask you from rhetorical questions (answers in all caps following the questions):

Have you followed through the OT as Jacob/Israel is called Jacob in this place, and Israel in that place, and noted the surrounding contexts for these? I think when God calls them Jacob, it's to make a particular point, the fleshy part of Israel.

1. Who do you think John is "seeing" in Revelation 7?
ISRAEL

2. Who is Israel? Remember what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29, Romans 11:25-26, and Galatians 3:28-29.
ALL BELIEVERS, ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST

3. Who are the 144,000? I don't think you're a Jehovah's Witness, so I feel like you'll get that question right...
SAME AS #2

4. Is that 144,000 number a hard, literal 144,000 people?
NO

5. Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 a different group from the great multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation in Revelation 7:9-17?
NO

1. Who do you think John is "seeing" in Revelation 7?
He saw the raptured church in heaven, and 144,000 Jewish males on the earth.

2. Who is Israel? Remember what Paul said in Romans 2:28-29, Romans 11:25-26, and Galatians 3:28-29.
God's chosen people whom He brought from Egypt, the children of Jacob. Who is the "Israel of God" except those of Jacob who have believed? Isn't that what Paul teaches? The true Jew is spiritually circumcised.

4. Is that 144,000 number a hard, literal 144,000 people?

Was Jesus in the tomb 3 days? Were there 12 Apostles? How many are sealed on the forehead with the seal of the living God carried to them by an angel? How many does the Bible say? Should we believe it?

5. Are the 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8 a different group from the great multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation in Revelation 7:9-17?

The ones are seen in heaven as the others are seen on earth. The ones are from all nations, the other from a single nation. Isn't that, again, what the Bible itself says?

I really hope you answer 'no' to those last two questions...

I realize that the reason we have these disagreements is because we read the Bible differently, and this discussion does demonstrate that fact. And if I'm to be blamed for holding to what it says, so be it.

<chuckle> No, they're still ethnic Jews... But they become true Jews, in the sense of what Paul says in Romans 2:28-29.

However, Gentiles do not become Jews in Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And this is how all Israel will be saved. By "all Israel," marks, he means all believers, all those of God's Israel.

That's a tautology.

All the saved will be saved. I don't believe that is what he meant, and all the more considering the multiplicity of OT prophecies that say the same.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I agree; they are very particular and specific, and I agree with you on the face value thing. The lesser is absolutely there, but it points to the greater. And this is the central shortcoming of dispensational understanding of Scripture.

?

lesser/greater??

You seem to be treating these prophecies as allegory first, and prophecy second. I hold them to be prophecy pure and simple, and these things will happen. If that's some shoddy second rate interpretation, I'll happily wear that also. I'll be the fool to believe it's true.

Some of these other things you've said, they even have their own places in the Bible, like the meek inheriting the earth. Let that passage say what it says, and this passage to say what it says.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Murder in act and murder in the mind are both about the same thing, the fleshiness against another person do destroy them, subject to condemnation.

You're missing the point. The point was ~ and I used the example of adultery, but it applies here, too, of course ~ that the actual commandment not to commit murder (or adultery) had a far greater meaning than the Israelites of old realized; that it was a matter of the heart rather than merely a command not to commit the outward act. Jesus clarified that. What I said was really not about the sin itself, but to demonstrate in some way the lesser-to-greater ~ or immediate-to-ultimate, or even first-to-second/final ~ pattern throughout Scripture. How ever we put it, the latter does not "negate the other," as you say later in one of these immediately previous posts, but it is the fuller iteration of what was always true, even from the beginning.

Believing in our risen Lord and believing the promise for descendants are different in what they are, and were different in their effect.

I agree in one sense, but in another not so much. Yes, they are different in exactly what they are, but they are not different in their affect. I'm sure you'll remember God's covenant with Abraham and how He put it into full effect. Abraham gathered the animals and split them in half (Genesis 15), right? And then God caused Abraham ~ well, at that time he was still Abram; he became Abraham when the covenant was made ~ to fall into a deep sleep. And then God alone passed between the animal halves, in effect taking both Abraham's end of the covenant and His upon Himself. Right? So, in effect, God was saying, "If I break the covenant, what has been done to these animals will be done to Me. And if you break the covenant between us, what has been done to these animals will be done not to you but to Me." Well, of course, Abraham and his progeny did break the covenant many times over, and God did fulfill the latter half of what I just said ~ in the Person of Jesus.

So, you say ~ and I agree ~ that "Abraham was imputed righteousness because He believed God." Sure. I agree with that in full. And with this, too, that "We, just like faithful Abraham, believe God, His message to us..." But this, "...but His message is different, our Risen Lord..." I fully disagree with. Abraham did not fully understand like we do because we can look back on our risen Lord in person, whereas it was just an idea, so to speak, for Abraham. But he believed God in the same manner we do (or, vice-versa, since Abraham came way before us... .

So what you said here, though, speaks to my point, marks, although I still think that even in saying it, you're still missing it Yes, Hebrews 11, makes clear that we are all saved ~ all of us, in Old Testament times and New ~ in the same way... through faith, which, as Hebrews 11:1 says, is the assurance of what is hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. Yes, Abraham believed God, and this was credited to him as righteousness (the assurance and the conviction came from outside of him ~ from God through the Holy Spirit ~ and the righteousness was not his own, but actually Jesus's and, yes, I agree, credited/imputed to him). This was his being born again. And the same thing happened to all the men and women of old mentioned in Hebrews 11, and the same thing happens to all of us ~ at God's times appointed (in the sense of Acts 13:48... as many as are appointed (by God; this is His purpose of election, expounded upon by Paul in Romans 9 through 11) believe.

...we are also baptized into Christ, and regenerated, born again.

This is backwards. Unless ~ unless ~ you are talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I don't think you are... If you are, then great.

Continued...