"The word was a god"?

[Pierac]

Revelation 11:15

“Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Note the end, “He shall Reign”, which in the Greek is, “βασιλευσει”, which is in the singular number. It can refer either, to “His Christ (τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ)”, or, to “our Lord and of His Christ (τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν καὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ)”. It is clear from the Book of Revelation that the latter is the correct way to understand this verse. This is clear that BOTH The Father and Jesus Christ will Reign Eternally Forever.

In chapter 22, verse 1, 3: “And he showed me a river of water of life, bright as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb...No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His servants will Serve Him”.

Here we have, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου (the throne of God and of the Lamb)”, clearly Two distinct Persons, “του θεου, του αρνιου”, but, “του θρονου” (the throne), is in the singular number. Again in verse 3 we have the same in the Greek, “του θρονου του θεου και του αρνιου”, and the singular “του θρονου”. “His (αυτου, masc, sing) servants, shall Worship Him (αυτω, masc, sing). Not only the Father and Jesus Christ are JOINT in their Rule, but they are Served, and Worshipped TOGETHER, as in 5:14.

Only ones personal beliefs will cause them to reject the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible, that Jesus Christ is not only The Creator God, but completely COEQUAL to God the Father.

No doubt whatsoever that Jesus Christ IS YHWH, ALMIGHTY GOD, 100% COEQUAL with the Father in the Godhead.

Really... Then why does Jesus' reign end???

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS (Jesus) FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (Jesus's God). When all things are subjected to Him (Jesus's God), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (God)who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

You don't even see do you ... ByGraceThroughFaith follower of men! I mean... you make it easy to destroy your post!!!
Paul

 

[Pierac]

If you were speaking the truth, you wouldn't need so many words. That is what false teachers do instead of taking scripture as plainly stated.

Really... You actually posted... THIS.... So I was using too much scripture to prove you wrong and thus it makes me a false teacher?

Well... teamventure. I got news for you... I'm not a teacher! So go back to your pastor and ask her how you should reply before you post again...

Really... I see no I in your teamventure... Next time... Don't go beyond your team...

Paul

 

[Gregory]

You rightly say this is impossible.

The idea that Jesus is ' a ' god, is a jehovahs witness falsifcation. They jump through more than there normal hoops to try to prove that Jesus is not God.
In John 1 there is no ' a ' they have to put it in with no lingusit justifcation for it, hence the greater than normal hoops to jump through.

May I suggest you do not use a watch tower new world mistranslation of the bible.
Instead use biblegateway where you can compare many different translations.

I am not a Jehovah's witness, but could you give me the name of the God Jesus is referring to in Revelations 3:12? Not once, not twice, not three times, but 4 times.

Jesus calls this God, "my God".

Who is this "my God" that Jesus refers to?

 

[Pierac]

I am not a Jehovah's witness, but could you give me the name of the God Jesus is referring to in Revelations 3:12? Not once, not twice, not three times, but 4 times.

Jesus calls this God, "my God".

Who is this "my God" that Jesus refers to?

That would be His God!!!
Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again,
Act 2:24 "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power...
to which we are all witnesses.

Act 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."

His Servant...Yep!!!

Act 5:30 "The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross.

Act 10:40 "God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible,

Gregory sees the truth here... do you???
Paul

 

[tigger 2]

I am not a Jehovah's witness, but could you give me the name of the God Jesus is referring to in Revelations 3:12? Not once, not twice, not three times, but 4 times.

Jesus calls this God, "my God".

Who is this "my God" that Jesus refers to?

..................................................
Notice that everywhere Jah is used by itself (except when accompanied by hallel) it has been changed by the “Christian” copyists. However, whenever Jah was accompanied by Hallel (“Praise”), the original Septuagint translators incorporated it with Hallel into a single word and then wrote it out in Greek characters (transliterated it) keeping the Hebrew pronunciation of Hallel and JAH !

“Psalms 113-118 are traditionally referred to as the ‘Hallel Psalms,’ because they have to do with praise to God for deliverance from Egyptian bondage under Moses. Because of this, they are an important part of the traditional Passover service. There is no reason to doubt that these were the hymns sung by Jesus and his disciples on Maundy Thursday when he instituted the Lord’s Supper (Matt. 26:30).

“The word halal is the source of ‘Hallelujah,’ a Hebrew expression of ‘praise’ to God which has been taken over into virtually every language of mankind. The Hebrew ‘Hallelujah’ is generally translated [falsely], ‘Praise the Lord!’ The Hebrew is more technically [more honestly] translated ‘Let us praise Yah,’ the term ‘Yah’ being a shortened form of ‘Yahweh,’ the unique Israelite name for God.” - p. 301, - Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, Unger and White, Thomas Nelson Publ., 1980.

“Hallelujah - Praise ye Jehovah - frequently rendered [falsely] ‘Praise Ye the Lord” - p. 276. “Jah - a shortened form of ‘Jehovah,’” - p. 322, Today’s Bible Dictionary, Bethany House Publishers, 1982.

“HALLELUJAH ... ‘praise ye Jehovah’; allelouia .... In the NT [Hallelujah] is found as part of the song of the heavenly host (Rev. 19:1 ff).” - p. 1323, Vol. 2, The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Eerdmans Publ., 1984 printing.

“hallelujah: (Heb., hillel, he praises; Jah, form of Yahweh-Jehovah....) Literally, Praise ye Yahweh.” - p. 320, An Encyclopedia of Religion, Ferm (editor), 1945 ed.

“HALLELUJAH - HALLELOUIA [in NT Greek] signifies ‘Praise ye Jah.’ .... In the N.T. it is found in Rev. 19:1, 3, 4, 6, as the keynote in the song of the great multitude in Heaven. Alleluia, without the initial H, is a misspelling.” - p. 520, W. E. Vine, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1980.

“ALLELUIA, the Greek form (Revelation 19:1, 3, 4, 6) of the Hebrew Hallelujah = Praise ye Jehovah, which begins or ends several of the psalms (106, 111, 112, 113, etc.).” – Easton’s Bible Dictionary, Thomas Nelson Publ., 1897.

The NT Greek text does have the initial ‘H’ sound. The “misspelling” is in certain English translations (e.g., KJV) which drop the beginning ‘H’ sound: “Alleluia”! However, most respected modern translations do have “Hallelujah” in Rev. 19 (e.g., NIV, NASB, RSV, NRSV, ASV, REB, MLB, Mo, and Barclay).

“Hallelujah....is derived from halal, which means to praise, and Jah, which is the name of God .... here in this chapter [Rev. 19] the original Hebrew form transliterated into Greek, is retained.” - p. 169, Vol. 2, William Barclay, The Revelation of John, Revised Edition, The Daily Study Bible Series, Westminster Press, 1976.

“Alleluia, so written in Rev. 19:6, foll., or more properly Hallelujah, Praise ye Jehovah ....” - p. 31. “Jah (Jehovah), the abbreviated form of Jehovah ... The identity of Jah and Jehovah is strongly marked in two passages of Isaiah - 12:2; 26:4.” - p. 276, Smith’s Bible Dictionary, William Smith, Hendrickson Publ.

“Trust ye in Jehovah for ever; for in Jehovah [‘Heb. JAH’ - ASV f. n.], even Jehovah [YHWH], is an everlasting rock.” - Is. 26:4, ASV.

And exactly who is the God whom all are commanded to praise? “God who sits on the throne” (19:4) is the Father, Jehovah alone. See all other instances of the God seated on the throne in the Book of Revelation (e.g., Rev. 4:2, 8; 5:6, 7, 16; 7:9). “The Lord our God the Almighty [pantokrator]” (Rev. 19:6) is never used of the Son (nor anyone else), but only the Father, Jehovah alone. E.g., 2 Cor. 6:18 says: “And I will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty [pantokrator].” Yes, the only person called God in the Book of Revelation is always the Father. (Rev. 1:6 - “[Jesus Christ] has made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.”) So how do God’s true worshipers respond when commanded to praise this God Almighty seated on the throne? “HALLELU JAH!” (“Praise JEHOVAH!”).

 

[PinSeeker]

Look... I answered his question..... So You tell me... AS Jesus is not sitting on that throne in Rev chapter 5... But His God is!!!

Well, I agree and disagree at the same time, which, you'll think is ludicrous, but it is what it is. You tell me this, Pierac (and I'm... quite sure... you'll have an "answer"...): Who is "sitting on the throne" ~ in quotes for a reason; that phrase gets terribly misrepresented in all these conversations, as if God is literally and bodily sitting on a big gold chair; more on that in a moment ~ in Revelation 3:21, Jesus, "the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation" (Revelation 3:14), is speaking to the church at Laodicaea, and says, "The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with Me on My throne, as I also conquered and sat down with My Father on His throne." Now, how many thrones are in view, here, Pierac? And Who is sitting on... well, it or them, depending on your answer to the first question, I guess... Again, certainly not to presume to take the place of God, but to question you sort of in the same manner He questioned Job, tell me, if you know.

You know, regarding the "sitting on the throne" thing... I said I'd get back that in a moment, so here we are, but I guess I sort of gave away what I was going to say even then. But I'll be happy to elaborate... The idea of sitting on the throne, Pierac ~ in Scripture ~ is to be in power over everything, to be preeminent and sovereign over (fill in the blank). David sat on the throne of Israel in the Old Testament, but that he literally sat on a "big awesome chair" in a palace ~ or the temple (because the temple was built by son Solomon after David's passing, as I'm sure you well remember), or a tent (because the tabernacle was in the desert during the Exodus, when David was not yet born). He was in power as King over physical Israel and therefore "sitting on the throne." Likewise, but much higher of course, God the Father "sits on the throne" now (and in Revelation 5, certainly), but God is spirit, as we see in John 4:24, so He does not have a body of flesh and bone like you and me, as I hope you would acknowledge. So again, there is no "big gold chair" in heaven; God is completely sovereign over and in complete power over and control of His creation. In this way He is "sitting on the throne of grace." And this is what it means for Jesus to have ascended to His rightful place "at the right hand of God," which means "in His power," and in this sense, they are both ~ with the Holy Spirit, Who, like the wind (the Holy Spirit is not literally the wind... ) comes and goes as He wishes, and we "do not know where (the wind) comes from or where (the wind) goes"... as it is "with everyone who is born of the Spirit" ~ "sitting on the throne."

Now.... News to you....

Ah yes, "news." LOL!

Act 17:30 "Therefore having overlooked the times of (PinSeeker) ,ignorance...

See, I see that shoe ~ the ingorance one... ~ firmly and securely on your foot, Pierac. Well... those shoes, on both your feet. And those feet are both... well, where they're not where they usually are on people...

God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He (God who sits on the Throne in Rev chapter 5) has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man (worthy to take the book from HIS God on that throne) whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

I agree with this. Yes, yes, I know, you think I'm contradicting myself... LOL!

Come on PinSeeker.... Believe Jesus...

Oh, most certainly, I do. I would bounce that right back at you, the "believe Jesus" part...

Jesus calls himself "a man"...

He certainly did. That, and even more momentous, really, the Son of Man.

John 8:40...

Ah yes, John 8:40, just before He assigned the Name of God to Himself. Yes, I know the passage well, and fully acknowledge all of it for what it is.

Try harder... your looking foolish preaching against scripture!!!!

What was it I said about shoes? And... you're not alone.

Yes, praise Jehovah indeed. To Him be the glory forever and ever. All three Persons of Him.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[teamventure]

Really... You actually posted... THIS.... So I was using too much scripture to prove you wrong and thus it makes me a false teacher?

Well... teamventure. I got news for you... I'm not a teacher! So go back to your pastor and ask her how you should reply before you post again...

Really... I see no I in your teamventure... Next time... Don't go beyond your team...

Paul

Ok fine with me. I'll go on believing in Jesus as God and you go on not believing. We'll see how that pans out in the end.

 

[Keiw]

No, not taking things out of context...


Isa_7:14 ¶ “Therefore the Lord [So 1QIsaa; MT reads Lord] himself will give you a sign. Watch! The virgin [So LXX; 1QIsaa MT read The young woman] is conceiving a child, and will give birth to a son, and his name will be called [So 1QIsaa; MT LXX read she will name him; MT alt. reading and you will name him] Immanuel. [The Heb. name Immanuel means God with us]
Isa_8:8 He will sweep on into Judah, overflowing as he passes through, like flood waters [DSS MT lack like flood waters] reaching up to a person’s neck. His outstretched wings will flow as wide as your land, O Immanuel!”
Isa_8:10 ¶ Take counsel together,
but it will all be for nothing;
go ahead and talk,
but [So 1QIsaa MT; 4QIsae LXX lack but] it will all be for nothing, [Lit. it won’t stand]
for God is with us.” [I.e. a word play on the name Immanuel; cf. 7:14, 8:8]
Mat_1:23 ¶ “See, a virgin will become pregnant
and give birth to a son,
and they will name him Immanuel,” [Isa 7:14]
which means, “God with us.”


Isa 9:6 ¶ For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name is [So 1QIsaa; MT 4QIsac read name will be] called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).

Isa 9:7 ¶ Of the growth of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will rule [DSS MT lack He will rule] over his kingdom,
sitting on the throne of David,
to establish it and to uphold it [So 1QIsaa, referring to the throne; MT reads it, referring to the kingdom]
with justice and righteousness
from this time onward and forevermore.
The zeal of the Lord of the Heavenly Armies will accomplish this.


Luk 2:11 Because hayom, in Ir Dovid, has been born to you a Moshia (Go’el, Savior, Oisleizer), who is Rebbe Melech HaMoshiach HaAdon. [YESHAYAH 9:5(6)]
Luk 2:12 And this will be HaOt [The Sign] to you: you will find a small child, an infant, wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in an evus. [SHMUEL ALEF 2:34; MELACHIM BAIS 19:29; TEHILLIM 86:17; YESHAYAH 7:14]
Luk 2:13 And, suddenly, there was with the malach a multitude of the Tzivos Hashem, the Tzivos HaShomayim (Armies or Hosts of Heaven) praising Hashem, and saying,
Luk 2:14 Kavod to Hashem in the Highest; and on haaretz shalom among Bnei Adam kavvanah tovah (of good intention). [YESHAYAH 9:5-6; 52:7; 53:5; MICHOH 5:4-5]
OJB

Luk 1:43 And why has this happened to me that the Em Adoni should come to me?

Like I have said, you don't read the scriptures.

J.

You take out of full context. Some scriptures are partial truths that need other scriptures to see the whole truth.
In Isaiah 9 where you quoted. It says his NAME will be called those things, not him personally.
See your mistaken about Jesus and the kingdom--At the conclusion of Rev 20- 1 Cor 15:24-28 occurs= Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself= forever.

 

[Windmillcharge]

I am not a Jehovah's witness, but could you give me the name of the God Jesus is referring to in Revelations 3:12? Not once, not twice, not three times, but 4 times.

Jesus calls this God, "my God".

Who is this "my God" that Jesus refers to?

God the father.

 

[DavidB]

God the father.

Agreed. Jesus’ God is his Father.

 

[tigger 2]

You take out of full context. Some scriptures are partial truths that need other scriptures to see the whole truth.
In Isaiah 9 where you quoted. It says his NAME will be called those things, not him personally.
See your mistaken about Jesus and the kingdom--At the conclusion of Rev 20- 1 Cor 15:24-28 occurs= Jesus must hand back the kingdom to his God and Father and subject himself= forever.

....................................................................
....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name (Is. 9:6) is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the person bearing the name (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible has:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Everlasting Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

- from Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

 

[Carl Emerson]

Agreed. Jesus’ God is his Father.

Caution... the term 'father' is used to describe a relationship much more profound than what we know of human relationships.

It should also be noted that in John 17, Jesus was given the Father's name - so the Fathers name is Jesus also.

11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[Johann]

Caution... the term 'father' is used to describe a relationship much more profound than what we know of human relationships.

It should also be noted that in John 17, Jesus was given the Father's name - so the Fathers name is Jesus also.

11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Isa 9:6 ¶ For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given;
and the government will be upon his shoulder,
and his name is [So 1QIsaa; MT 4QIsac read name will be] called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:6 (5) For unto us a yeled is born, unto us ben is given; and the misrah (dominion) shall be upon his shoulder; and Shmo shall be called Peleh (Wonderful), Yoetz (Counsellor), El Gibbor (Mighty G-d), Avi Ad (Everlasting Father), Sar Shalom (Prince of Peace).
OJB

J

 

[Johann]

....................................................................
....
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name (Is. 9:6) is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the person bearing the name (as we have already seen with “Elijah,” “Abijah,” etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.

Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,” “is,” “of,” etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.

For instance, two of the best Bible concordances (Young’s and Strong’s) and a popular trinitarian Bible dictionary (Today’s Dictionary of the Bible) differ greatly on the exact meaning of many Biblical personal names because of those “minor” words which must be added to bring out the intended meaning.

Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance, for example, says the name “Elimelech” (which is literally just “God King”) means “God of (the) King.” Young’s Analytical Concordance says it means “God is King.” Today’s Dictionary of the Bible says it means “God his king” - p. 206, Bethany House Publ., 1982.

Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated in the footnote as:

“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace” - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.)

to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.

Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:

“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.”

From the Is. 9:6 footnote in the trinity-supporting NET Bible:

".... some have suggested that one to three of the titles that follow ['called'] refer to God, not the king. For example, the traditional punctuation of the Hebrew text suggests the translation, 'and the Extraordinary Strategist, the Mighty God calls his name, "Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."'"

And The Leeser Bible has:

“Wonderful, counsellor of the mighty God, of the everlasting Father, the prince of peace”

Of course it could also be honestly translated:

“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Everlasting Father of the Prince of Peace.”

And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:

[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;

The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.”

- from Examining the Trinity: Isa. 9:6 "Mighty God, Eternal Father"

Why don't you read the scriptures and believe what you read?
J.

 

[RedFan]

It should also be noted that in John 17, Jesus was given the Father's name - so the Fathers name is Jesus also.

11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

The meaning is uncertain. The Textus Receptus has ους δεδωκας μοι ("those which you have given me") with the accusative plural ους aligning with the accusative plural αὐτοὺς ("them") earlier in the verse, a clear reference to the apostles. Wescott & Hort/Nestle has ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι ("which you have given me"), where the dative singular ᾧ aligns with the dative singular ὀνόματί ("name") earlier in the verse, a clear reference to God's name.

So, is it ους or is it ᾧ? Tough to tell. Fans of the KJV will be inclined to the former: King Jimmie follows the Textus Receptus, and so translates v. 12 as "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept." And this interpretation of John's meaning -- after all, it is John's meaning that we are trying to get at here -- is much more in tune with John 18:9.

But King Jimmie is in the minority. And I am tending toward your view, Carl, i.e., that John is suggesting Jesus was given the Father's name. I think Wescott & Hort/Nestle's language is better attested from the majority of ancient manuscripts. Nevertheless, caution is called for.

In any event, if the verse does mean that Jesus was given the Father's name (YHWH, I Am Who Am, whatever you care to stick in here) it still cannot be said that John intended his readers to assume that the humanly-given name "Jesus" is actually the Father's name as well! That's just silly. (John deliberately applies the divine name “I am” to Jesus in 8:58.) So while I will tentatively agree with you that John is suggesting "Jesus was given the Father's name," I strongly disagree that John is suggesting "the Fathers name is Jesus also."

 

[DavidB]

Caution... the term 'father' is used to describe a relationship much more profound than what we know of human relationships.

It should also be noted that in John 17, Jesus was given the Father's name - so the Fathers name is Jesus also.

11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

I agree that God is a Father in a much more profound way than a human father. For example, we don’t know exactly how God brought forth living beings, spirit or flesh, but it certainly didn’t involve the biology we rely on. But, you seem to have missed the main point that the Father is Jesus’ God.

 

[DavidB]

Why don't you read the scriptures and believe what you read?
J.

Do you believe what you read in these verses?

Deuteronomy 6:4
“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”

John 17:3
“This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”

1 Corinthians 11:3
“But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God.”

1 Corinthians 8:6
“There is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

1 Corinthians 15:28
“But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”

Philippians 2:9
“For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.”

John 1:18
“No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.”

John 14:28
“The Father is greater than I am.”

Mark 13:32
“Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”

John 20:17
“I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

1 Peter 1:3
“Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Revelation 3:12
“The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

The meaning is uncertain. The Textus Receptus has ους δεδωκας μοι ("those which you have given me") with the accusative plural ους aligning with the accusative plural αὐτοὺς ("them") earlier in the verse, a clear reference to the apostles. Wescott & Hort/Nestle has ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι ("which you have given me"), where the dative singular ᾧ aligns with the dative singular ὀνόματί ("name") earlier in the verse, a clear reference to God's name.

So, is it ους or is it ᾧ? Tough to tell. Fans of the KJV will be inclined to the former: King Jimmie follows the Textus Receptus, and so translates v. 12 as "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept." And this interpretation of John's meaning -- after all, it is John's meaning that we are trying to get at here -- is much more in tune with John 18:9.

But King Jimmie is in the minority. And I am tending toward your view, Carl, i.e., that John is suggesting Jesus was given the Father's name. I think Wescott & Hort/Nestle's language is better attested from the majority of ancient manuscripts. Nevertheless, caution is called for.

In any event, if the verse does mean that Jesus was given the Father's name (YHWH, I Am Who Am, whatever you care to stick in here) it still cannot be said that John intended his readers to assume that the humanly-given name "Jesus" is actually the Father's name as well! That's just silly. (John deliberately applies the divine name “I am” to Jesus in 8:58.) So while I will tentatively agree with you that John is suggesting "Jesus was given the Father's name," I strongly disagree that John is suggesting "the Fathers name is Jesus also."

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

How do we know the name Jesus was not divinely inspired?

Matt 1
20 But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a Son; and you shall name Him Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree that God is a Father in a much more profound way than a human father. For example, we don’t know exactly how God brought forth living beings, spirit or flesh, but it certainly didn’t involve the biology we rely on. But, you seem to have missed the main point that the Father is Jesus’ God.

I haven't missed the point - I am dismissing it.

There is no subordination in the Godhead - the three are one and act in unity.

 

[RedFan]

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.

How do we know the name Jesus was not divinely inspired?

I'm afraid I cannot weigh in on that one, one way or the other. If he had been named "Emmanuel" rather than "Jesus" I might be on surer footing to hazard a guess -- but as it is, I'll just have to plead ignorance here. (As in most things . . .)