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Randy Kluth

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That's a bullet that you can't dodge.

If, as you claim, the nation of 1 Peter 2:9 is the literal nation of Exodus 19:6; then the priesthood of 1 Peter 2:9 is the literal priests of Exodus 19:6.

That's simple undeniable unassailable logic and consistency.

Of course, if logic and consistency are of no significance to you, then you can claim whatever you wish.

The overwhelming majority of recognized apologists of the true Christian Church before the 19th century who have exegeted 1 Peter 2:9, declare the holy nation to represent the Christian Church.

When Jesus told the Jewish leaders...:

Matthew 21
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

...you can be assured that He was not referring to the literal nation of apostate Israel.

There was only one nation to which He could have been alluding.

The holy nation of the Church in 1 Peter 2:9.

;) Believe what you will brother. But you have no argument at all, based on what I've already argued.

Yes, I'm well aware that most of Christianity gave up on the "Jewish Hope" when after a couple of centuries it was clear the Jewish People were not going to accept Christ. But now that we've seen Israel reborn, we don't have the luxury of believing the Jewish People are cast away forever.

But you can stick with those past beliefs, and I'm going to embrace the new realities. We're answerable to the Lord individually.
 

Randy Kluth

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It was directed to believing Israelites in exile.

Israelites were comprised of both Jew and Gentile.

That doesn't mitigate against the fact he was speaking of a literal nation, the nation Israel. As I said before, we may refer to a nation like England, but the fact that foreigners and minorities live among them does not in the least mean we are not talking about the English nation, or the UK.
 

Randy Kluth

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The true Israelites of God are not and never were Judah or any person of a special ethnicity. Abraham was a Sumerian from the city of Ur.
Jacob was the first Israelite of God, he was an Overcomer for God. That is what we Christians are.

Do you even know what you're saying, brother? Everybody knows that Judah was part of Israel. If you use crazy arguments like this, why should I even entertain such a debate?

Of course; you avoided Jeremiah 12:16, it has two special words in it : If and THEN.
ONLY IF an individual Jew becomes Christian, THEN will that person be able to go to live in the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-38 describes this process.

I didn't avoid Jer 12.16--I quoted it! If/Then has no consequence in this argument. Obviously, the point is that Judah would be plucked up, or removed from their "neighborhood." Their enemies around them would see them judged in this way.

But immediately afterwards, the Prophet confirms the Jewish Hope of final restoration. Sorry you refuse to see that or to acknowledge it.

Take note of the Parable of the Landowner. Matthew 21:33-46
Judah has lost the Kingdom and nowhere does the Bible say they get it back.


I've admitted that some in Israel are cast away, nevermore to be recovered because they've chosen to abandon their covenant with God completely. The northern tribes did this when they remained with the apostate Northern Kingdom of Israel and were carried away. They are lost forever.

But those in the Southern Kingdom of Judah acquired numbers from all 12 tribes and chose to return to the Lord in Jerusalem even after they had also apostacized and been judged. Many of them decided to repent, and became the nucleus of a new recovered Israel.

Of course, Israel against went spiritually bankrupt by the time of Jesus, and the whole process is being repeated, except that there has not yet been a full restoration.
 

covenantee

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we don't have the luxury of believing the Jewish People are cast away forever.

Here is your "Jewish People" figment.

Every person on the planet.


After more than three millennia of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Abraham's physical DNA is ubiquitous in every inhabitant of planet earth.

Genetically, "Jewishness" is found in the entirety of humanity.

Established mathematically. Example of ancestral genetic ubiquity:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

Nobody in my past was hugely famous, at least that I know of. I vaguely recall that an ancestor of mine who shipped over on the Mayflower distinguished himself by falling out of the ship and having to get fished out of the water. He might be notable, I guess, but hardly famous. It is much more fun to think that I am a bloodline descendant of Charlemagne. And in 1999, Joseph Chang gave me permission to think that way.

Chang was not a genealogist who had decided to make me his personal project. Instead, he is a statistician at Yale who likes to think of genealogy as a mathematical problem. When you draw your genealogy, you make two lines from yourself back to each of your parents. Then you have to draw two lines for each of them, back to your four grandparents. And then eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on. But not so on for very long. If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive.

The only way out of this paradox is to assume that our ancestors are not independent of one another. That is, if you trace their ancestry back, you loop back to a common ancestor. We’re not talking about first-cousin stuff here–more like twentieth-cousin. This means that instead of drawing a tree that fans out exponentially, we need to draw a web-like tapestry.

In a paper he published in 1999 [pdf], Chang analyzed this tapestry mathematically. If you look at the ancestry of a living population of people, he concluded, you’ll eventually find a common ancestor of all of them. That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person.

As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

In 2002, the journalist Steven Olson wrote an article in the Atlantic about Chang’s work. To put some empirical meat on the abstract bones of Chang’s research, Olson considered a group of real people–living Europeans.

The most recent common ancestor of every European today (except for recent immigrants to the Continent) was someone who lived in Europe in the surprisingly recent past—only about 600 years ago. In other words, all Europeans alive today have among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived around 1400. Before that date, according to Chang’s model, the number of ancestors common to all Europeans today increased, until, about a thousand years ago, a peculiar situation prevailed: 20 percent of the adult Europeans alive in 1000 would turn out to be the ancestors of no one living today (that is, they had no children or all their descendants eventually died childless); each of the remaining 80 percent would turn out to be a direct ancestor of every European living today.

Suddenly, my pedigree looked classier: I am a descendant of Charlemagne. Of course, so is every other European. By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation.

Things have changed a lot in the fourteen years since Chang published his first paper on ancestry. Scientists have amassed huge databases of genetic information about people all over the world. These may not be the same thing as a complete genealogy of the human race, but geneticists can still use them to tackle some of the same questions that intrigued Chang.

Recently, two geneticists, Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California and Graham Coop of the University of California at Davis, decided to look at the ancestry of Europe. They took advantage of a compilation of information about 2257 people from across the continent. Scientists had examined half a million sites in each person’s DNA, creating a distinctive list of genetic markers for each of them.

You can use this kind of genetic information to make some genealogical inferences, but you have to know what you’re dealing with. Your DNA is not a carbon copy of your parents’. Each time they made eggs or sperm, they shuffled the two copies of each of their chromosomes and put one in the cell. Just as a new deck gets more scrambled the more times you shuffle it, chromosomes get more shuffled from one generation to the next.

This means that if you compare two people’s DNA, you will find some chunks that are identical in sequence. The more closely related people are, the bigger the chunks you’ll find. This diagram shows how two first cousins share a piece of DNA that’s identical by descent (IBD for short).

Ralph and Coop identified 1.9 million of these long shared segments of DNA shared by at least two people in their study. They then used the length of each segment to estimate how long ago it arose from a common ancestor of the living Europeans.

Their results, published today in PLOS Biology, both confirm Chang’s mathematical approach and enrich it. Even within the past thousand years, Ralph and Coop found, people on opposite sides of the continent share a lot of segments in common–so many, in fact, that it’s statistically impossible for them to have gotten them all from a single ancestor. Instead, someone in Turkey and someone in England have to share a lot of ancestors. In fact, as Chang suspected, the only way to explain the DNA is to conclude that everyone who lived a thousand years ago who has any descendants today is an ancestor of every European. Charlemagne for everyone!

If you compare two people in Turkey, you’ll find bigger shared segments of DNA, which isn’t surprising. Since they live in the same country, chances are they have more recent ancestors, and more of them. But there is a rich, intriguing pattern to the number of shared segments among Europeans. People across Eastern Europe, for example, have a larger set of shared segments than people from within single countries in Western Europe. That difference may be the signature of a big expansion of the Slavs.

Ralph and Coop’s study may provide a new tool for reconstructing the history of humans on every continent, not just Europe. It will also probably keep people puzzling over the complexities of genealogy.


Corroborated empirically.
By the Jewish community itself.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

How does God distinguish genetic Jews from genetic Jews?

It matters not one whit.

Because God has only two covenant criteria.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

Abraham's Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.
 
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covenantee

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That doesn't mitigate against the fact he was speaking of a literal nation, the nation Israel. As I said before, we may refer to a nation like England, but the fact that foreigners and minorities live among them does not in the least mean we are not talking about the English nation, or the UK.

The only nation in Peter's letters is the holy nation of 1 Peter 2:9.

And there is only one holy nation of the New Covenant.

The Church of God.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Here is your "Jewish People" figment.

Every person on the planet.

I find studies like this interesting. However, none of this figures in any of the beliefs I said I had. No matter how mixed people are, there are still nations with dominant ethnicities, retaining a clustering of cultural values, and thus genetic similarities, as well. A German nation is still Germanic. A French nation still has what appears to be French people. African nations have telltale indicators of a prominent race or two.

The distinction of the tribes of Israel have been lost, and is of no consequence. The promise was for a nation, and the various tribes were just the 1st step in this direction.

It was prophesied that the divisions of 2 kingdoms would be healed. Christ would come to reign over a single Israel. All tribes would be fulfilled in the one nation.

The tribes would be equally expressed in a single melting pot replete with Jewish customs and culture. Their culture would be unified and retained by their connection to their hope: "next year in Jerusalem."

When we speak of "Israel," everybody knows who we're speaking of. They've retained the culture of those who follow the Law of Moses in some way and who hope for reconstitution in the land of Israel. The fact they do not yet acknowledge Jesus in no way means they will not do so in the future, following decisive judgment.
 

covenantee

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The fact they do not yet acknowledge Jesus in no way means they will not do so in the future, following decisive judgment.

"They" are not identified today by genetics, as they themselves acknowledge and applaud.

"They" are identified today by culture, community, and religion.

But salvation cometh not by culture, community, and religion.

It comes by grace through faith in the Son of God.

Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.

And only a remnant will experience it. (Romans 9:27)
 

Randy Kluth

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The only nation in Peter's letters is the holy nation of 1 Peter 2:9.

And there is only one holy nation of the New Covenant.

The Church of God.

I respect that as your opinion and belief, but I don't respect it in our discussion, because it has no more merit than a belief. You offer no more arguments--just assertions. As such, it has no value at all.

It is just as easy for me to say that the only nation Peter could be speaking of is the nation Israel. But I could provide arguments for that, beyond the mere assertion. Peter is quoting from a passage in the OT that speaks directly of the nation Israel.

To me, then, he is speaking of Israel in the NT era. The "priesthood" has been fulfilled in the eternal and true priest, Jesus. And we carry his priestly ministry to the nations.
 

Randy Kluth

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"They" are not identified today by genetics, as they themselves acknowledge and applaud.

"They" are identified today by culture, community, and religion.

But salvation cometh not by culture, community, and religion.

It comes by grace through faith in the Son of God.

Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.

And only a remnant will experience it. (Romans 9:27)

Genetics was the predominant thing early in the history of Israel. But later on in the history of Israel, culture was the predominant value, since Israel was called to live as a nation under the Law of Moses.

This distinguished Israel from all other nations. It is different, however, in the NT era, when Israel continues to pay service to the Law, and we know the Law has lost its value as a testimony to Christ. Christ has already come.

So Israel remains distinct by virtue of remaining faithful to the Law, and bears witness to the fact they are sitlll under judgment, even as Jesus said. But it remains we are speaking of just one nation, distinguished from all others by virtue of their loyalty to the Law and that culture.

Genetics only began this nation. The culture causes it to continue. And even if the culture reflects their temporary judgment, this is no way mitigates against the promise of God that they would always return. That is, some would return to restore the nation to God.
 

covenantee

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I respect that as your opinion and belief, but I don't respect it in our discussion, because it has no more merit than a belief. You offer no more arguments--just assertions. As such, it has no value at all.

It is just as easy for me to say that the only nation Peter could be speaking of is the nation Israel. But I could provide arguments for that, beyond the mere assertion. Peter is quoting from a passage in the OT that speaks directly of the nation Israel.

To me, then, he is speaking of Israel in the NT era. The "priesthood" has been fulfilled in the eternal and true priest, Jesus. And we carry his priestly ministry to the nations.

From the pen of acclaimed historical apologist Matthew Henry:

"All Christians, wheresoever they be, compose one holy nation. They are one nation, collected under one head, agreeing in the same manners and customs, and governed by the same laws; and they are a holy nation, because consecrated and devoted to God, renewed and sanctified by his Holy Spirit."
 

Randy Kluth

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No.

Only a remnant will turn to God. (Romans 9:27)

As is true of the entirety of humanity.

No, it isn't true of Israel and it isn't true of all humanity, if God's word means anything at all. He promised Abraham *nations*--not pieces of a nation!

The following is an indication of *judgment*--not final restoration. A part of a nation is intended by God to reflect judgment and failure--not fulfillment and salvation.

Amos 3.12 This is what the Lord says: “As a shepherd rescues from the lion’s mouth only two leg bones or a piece of an ear, so will the Israelites living in Samaria be rescued, with only the head of a bed and a piece of fabric from a couch.”
 

Randy Kluth

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From the pen of acclaimed historical apologist Matthew Henry:

"All Christians, wheresoever they be, compose one holy nation. They are one nation, collected under one head, agreeing in the same manners and customs, and governed by the same laws; and they are a holy nation, because consecrated and devoted to God, renewed and sanctified by his Holy Spirit."

I'm well aware that the Church long ago gave up on the Jewish Hope. Most of them did not live to see the restoration of the modern State of Israel.
 

covenantee

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No, it isn't true of Israel and it isn't true of all humanity, if God's word means anything at all. He promised Abraham *nations*--not pieces of a nation!

The following is an indication of *judgment*--not final restoration. A part of a nation is intended by God to reflect judgment and failure--not fulfillment and salvation.

Amos 3.12 This is what the Lord says: “As a shepherd rescues from the lion’s mouth only two leg bones or a piece of an ear, so will the Israelites living in Samaria be rescued, with only the head of a bed and a piece of fabric from a couch.”

Why are you denying Romans 9:27?
 

Keraz

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Sorry you refuse to see that or to acknowledge it.
What I refuse to acknowledge is the idea that the Jewish State of Israel is anything other that just another secular nation.
In the forthcoming reset of our civilization; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the entire Middle East will be depopulated. There are many Prophesies that describe this.

Those who respond to the Gospel, are the true Israelites:

The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Jewish Israel, but the genuine Christian Israel of God. Galatians 6:14-16

Jesus sent His Disciples-Apostles to the Gentiles; non-Jews, where the House of Israel was; scattered around the world. Not to Judah, as He preached to Judah and was rejected. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide.

They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, by going to who the Jews referred to as Gentiles, because the people who heard the Gospel and who accepted it, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, of the ten Northern tribes, as John 7:35 informs us.

The prophecy of Caiaphas, John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.


Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. John 10:16 Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10

Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed, Jesus; but an originally chosen, natural born Christian Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9

It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.

John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many.

This is a direct reference to Christians, the true Israelite sons of God. Romans 9:24-26



The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded:

Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?

But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction? Jeremiah 18:1-12

These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27
 

covenantee

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I'm well aware that the Church long ago gave up on the Jewish Hope. Most of them did not live to see the restoration of the modern State of Israel.

What to believe?

1. More than 17 centuries of the united testimony of acclaimed defenders of the True Faith
or
2. Less than one century of modernist denial

No dilemma for me.
 

Randy Kluth

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Does God now identify a Jew by culture?

If so, is eating kosher sufficient to qualify?

If you're part of the group that identifies as Jewish, ie has a Jewish Mother or practices the religious customs of the Jewish People, then yes, that qualifies. I might add that you should also be part of the society of the Jewish People--some Christians practice some aspects of the Law, but are not converts to Judaism.
 

Randy Kluth

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What to believe?

1. More than 17 centuries of the united testimony of acclaimed defenders of the True Faith
or
2. Less than one century of modernist denial

No dilemma for me.

I'm not putting pressure on you one way or another--you have to come to your own conclusion. You can follow your own convictions.

I do acknowledge centuries of Christian denial of the Jewish Hope. This doesn't surprise me, since Christianity is as fallible as Israel was. You might say that Israel was for most of its history polytheists, or idolaters. And yet we view them in their orthodoxy, and not in their heterodoxy.

Christians have divided on many issues. The most essential issues don't have to do with your view of the Jewish Hope. It has to do with your personal relationship with the Lord, and with your willingness to live in righteousness, just like Christ.

The Church started out with belief in the Jewish Hope. It abandoned it upon recognition that the Jews were not going to convert en masse any time soon. But today we still have the Christian remnant among the Jews, just as Paul said there would be. And we still have the promises in Scriptures assuring the Jewish People that their national hope would eventually be realized and never again fail.
 

Randy Kluth

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What I refuse to acknowledge is the idea that the Jewish State of Israel is anything other that just another secular nation.

Then we're at an impasse. No use arguing it. The minute you say the Jewish State is no different or has no covenant with God via promise, we have no basis to agree on the outcome of their nation.