National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

Why are you denying Romans 9:27?

Certainly not! Presently only the Christian remnant is being saved. But in the future Paul says the entire nation will be converted to Christianity, or saved *politically.* They will be saved from God's continuing punishment upon their people. Do you deny Romans 11:26?

 

[covenantee]

Certainly not! Presently only the Christian remnant is being saved. But in the future Paul says the entire nation will be converted to Christianity, or saved *politically.* They will be saved from God's continuing punishment upon their people. Do you deny Romans 11:26?

Romans 11:26 (all Israel) is identified in Romans 9:6-8. I've covered that previously.

 

[covenantee]

If you're part of the group that identifies as Jewish, ie has a Jewish Mother or practices the religious customs of the Jewish People, then yes, that qualifies. I might add that you should also be part of the society of the Jewish People--some Christians practice some aspects of the Law, but are not converts to Judaism.

Imagine that.

I've always believed from Scripture that faith and obedience were God's requirements to be chosen.

Now I'm told that eating kosher will satisfy at least part of that requirement.

How much and how often do I need to eat it? Is one forkful a day sufficient?

And what is the Scripture for salvation by kosher?

Can you cite any recognized Christian exegete who espouses salvation by kosher?

Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[covenantee]

The Church started out with belief in the Jewish Hope.

Evidence?

Justin Martyr (100-165AD), Dialogue With Trypho The Jew.
"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Romans 11:26 (all Israel) is identified in Romans 9:6-8. I've covered that previously.

You've covered it, and I've disagreed with it. Saying Israel is illegitimate because they refuse to have the faith of Abraham does not mean that those who have been disobedient cannot repent. This is *not* saying that Israel isn't Israel. Rather, it's saying that the *promised* members of Israel will be realized by their ultimate repentance. It is not a redefinition of "Israel," but rather, an acknowledgment that some in Israel will never opt for faith.

Some in Israel choosing not to opt for faith does not stop them from being "Israel." Rather, it means they aren't choosing to be true to what Israel was called to be.

For example, those who reject Christ aren't suddenly called Ethiopians of Egyptians--they remain Israeli! They just aren't all living up to what being a true Israeli was intended to be. And those who aren't living up to that standard can still repent, as Israelis, and become "true Israelis," ie true to Abraham's faith.

They don't stop being Israelis when they backslide, and return to being Israelis when they repent. Rather, this is a measure of whether these Israelis become true and faithful to their calling as Israelis.

When Paul says "all Israel will be saved," he is not saying only half a nation will get saved, and exclude the half that refuses to repent, or relegate the lost half to "non-Israeli" status. Rather, he is saying that the political state itself will be reformed to allow all the citizens to follow the rules of Christian living. That way, Israel, as a nation, will be saved from divine judgment, and will no longer be destroyed by their enemies.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Evidence?

Justin Martyr (100-165AD), Dialogue With Trypho The Jew.
"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

All the early Church Fathers, beginning with those who knew the Apostle John, were Premillennialists. Just read any historical treatment of Premillennialism on the internet. If you don't know this, you really haven't studied it out personally.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Imagine that.

I've always believed from Scripture that faith and obedience were God's requirements to be chosen.

You really don't argue very well. You asked how a Jew is defined, and now you talk about how a Christian is defined?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Evidence?

Justin Martyr (100-165AD), Dialogue With Trypho The Jew.
"As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race."

You are too skeptical for me to want to give you lessons in history.

 

[covenantee]

Saying Israel is illegitimate because they refuse to have the faith of Abraham does not mean that those who have been disobedient cannot repent.

Of course. Those who are "of Israel" can be transformed into "all Israel" at any time through saving faith and ongoing obedience.

But since those who are "of Israel" eat kosher, I presume you believe that it will save them.

 

[covenantee]

All the early Church Fathers, beginning with those who knew the Apostle John, were Premillennialists. Just read any historical treatment of Premillennialism on the internet. If you don't know this, you really haven't studied it out personally.

Yes, Justin Martyr was premil. And he believed that the Church is the "true Israelitic race".

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course. Those who are "of Israel" can be transformed into "all Israel" at any time through saving faith and ongoing obedience.

But since those who are "of Israel" eat kosher, I presume you believe that it will save them.

I wish to clarify something at this point that I've clarified elsewhere, but you may not realize it. National Salvation is being used by Paul conceptually in a different sense than how we normally use it in the evangelical sense. In context he is speaking of the kind of salvation as was promised under the Law, to bless the nation through obedience. It never indicated 100% sinless obedience on the part of every citizen in the State, but it reflected a general state of conformity with the requirements of the Law.

Even the Law admitted that in the present age, Israelis sin, even as their society conformed to the Law generally. That's why sacrifices were provided for forgiveness, and rituals provided for cleansing. It was a way of dealing with smaller matters of sin, short of large-scale apostasy by the entire nation.

The idea was that as the nation conformed to God's Law, and dealt properly with their own internal sin, they could be blessed as a nation and "saved" from their enemies, which were judgments God sent upon them when they disobeyed. Just read the book of Judges and you'll understand this process of a nation being "saved" from their enemies.

And so, it is in this sense that Paul speaks of the whole nation being saved, as opposed to being defeated by enemies and being left just a piece of an ear or a part of a couch, which was indication of disgrace (Amos 3.12). Bare survival is not restoration, and is certainly not a blessing!

So Paul was envisioning a time when Israel is fully restored as a nation and to compliance with God's laws and covenant. It had nothing to do with indicating every citizen of the State would get saved, which seems to be an issue confusing our discussion? There is a big difference between a nation being blessed generally and 100% of the nation becoming perfect, sinless, and complete.

 

[Keraz]

Saying Israel is illegitimate because they refuse to have the faith of Abraham does not mean that those who have been disobedient cannot repent.

But the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are not prophesied to repent. God is about to destroy them and only a small Christian remnant will survive. THIS is the truth of Bible Prophecy.

Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob

When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God.


The message to the individual is that he or she must “turn from transgression” to the Lord. There will be a remnant that will turn to him. All of them will be saved. He speaks of the saved remnant as the nation Israel.

Are the Jews still God's people? Yes, but only those who are both ethnic and spiritual Jews. Romans 2:29 Saved Gentiles have also been grafted into the tree and are now co-heirs of the promises of God to Israel. Galatians 3:26-29 The apostle Paul was a remnant Jew...

Romans 11:1, I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Paul was an ethnic Israelite. Paul says that it's all by God's grace... Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Romans 9:27

In other words, by grace through faith, plus or minus nothing, in the Lord Jesus Christ. Only through faith in Jesus can anyone be a child of God. Confirmed by:

Galatians 3:26-29, For you are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Clearly, Galatians 3:26-29 states that unsaved Jews cannot be Abraham's spiritual seed, nor are they heirs of the promises of God made to Israel in the Bible. The Bible is very plain on this subject that only born-again Christian believers of any ethnicity are heirs of the promises of God. True, righteous Christians from every race, nation and language are God's people; the Israelites of God.


There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ. So we can divide all humanity into one or other of these two groups:

1/ Every godless unbeliever including the non-Christian Jews and

2/ All Christian believers, Jews and Gentiles.; people from every race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18b, Revelation 5:9-10

God never blesses wicked evildoers. When the Jews rejected Jesus, God gave them into the hands of their enemies, as in 70 AD. Then, for continuing in their disbelief; the many pogroms and the Holocaust. Now they face the third swing of the Sword, Ezekiel 21:1-16


Romans 11:1-2 and 19-23, I say then, Has God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away his people which he foreknew…..You may say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and we Christians stand by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, blessing, so keep your faith: otherwise you also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they change their ways, shall be grafted back in: for God is able to graft them in again.

This Scripture plainly teaches that ONLY Jews who believe the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ will be grafted back into the tree as God's people. Jeremiah 12:14-16 proves this.


God cut off Judah in 586 BC for their continuous and stiffnecked rebellion against His Word, even killing the prophets.

God still loves His people, His true people who obey Him, and any Jew can be grafted back into the tree, but all Christ-rejecting Jews are NOT GOD'S PEOPLE. The Parable of the Vineyard shows how the ethnic Jewish people have lost their status. Matthew 21:33-46, Luke 19:27


Less than .025% of the Jews living in Israel today profess to be a Christian. Only a fool thinks that God loves the apostate, atheistic, gay pride, Christ rejecting Jews. These types are NOT God's people.

So only the saved Jews are part of God's people, but most are saved Gentiles, the descendants of Abraham by their faith.

Only believers in Jesus Christ can claim to be heirs of the promises of God originally given to Israel, but now applicable to every faithful Christian.

Galatians 3:29 proclaims this truth...And if you be Christ's, then are you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Romans 8:16-17

 

[covenantee]

The idea was that as the nation conformed to God's Law, and dealt properly with their own internal sin, they could be blessed as a nation and "saved" from their enemies, which were judgments God sent upon them when they disobeyed. Just read the book of Judges and you'll understand this process of a nation being "saved" from their enemies.

Below are all of the instances in Romans where Paul uses the word "saved".

In all instances apart from Romans 9:27, not one uses "saved" in the sense of being saved from enemies.

Rather, every instance refers to the salvation of the soul.

So Romans 9:27 also refers to the salvation of the soul.

Paul's acknowledgement in Romans 9:27 is consistent with his anguish in Romans 9:1-3.

He knew that only the remnant would experience the salvation of their souls.

1. Romans 5:9
   Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
   
   
2. Romans 5:10
   For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
   
   
3. Romans 8:24
   For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
   
   
4. Romans 9:27
   Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
   
   
5. Romans 10:1
   Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
   
   
6. Romans 10:9
   That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
   
   
7. Romans 10:13
   For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
   
   
8. Romans 11:26
   And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

 

[Randy Kluth]

But the current citizens of the Jewish State of Israel are not prophesied to repent. God is about to destroy them and only a small Christian remnant will survive. THIS is the truth of Bible Prophecy.

Romans 11:26-27, And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
The quotation Paul uses is from Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob

When the Bible says that ALL ISRAEL shall be saved in Romans 11:26-27, it refers to only a remnant of the Jewish people and all true Christians, now the Israel of God.

Sorry, that position honestly does not make sense to me. "All Israel" is just the salvation of a "remnant?" No way!

I'll tell you what I told someone else. This "salvation," in context, is talking about a different kind of salvation, the deliverance of a nation from the attempt to annihilate it. God put a curse on Israel for trying to establish their own righteousness, and for covering up their evils by posturing as a righteous, God-fearing people. The curses of disobedience involved successive troubles and plagues, ending with military defeat and exile. The "salvation" Paul is talking about is salvation from Israel's enemies, once they have repented of their sins.

So a whole lot more than merely a remnant will get saved. At present, during the present age, only a remnant of Christians exist in Israel, in the time of their backsliding. But in the future, Christ will come back to save *many* and to judge *many.* It may be more like 50-50 than 10- 90. Here is a passage in Revelation that seems to suggest repentance falls on *many* in Jerusalem:

Rev 11.13 At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven

Please note that the survivors would number far more than 7000 people! The survivors "gave glory to the God of heaven," meaning that they had an attitude of remorse and repentance. I believe it indicates *many* will repent.

Rev 1.“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

This passage is derived from Zech 12.10 and in that place referred primarily to Israel, since God had not yet reached out to the world at that time. Again, it indicates that *many* in Israel will mourn, or repent--not just a few.

In the current age, however, relatively few Jews are responding to the message of the Gospel. This "salvation," however, is to take place when Christ returns, to bring Israel back to himself.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Below are all of the instances in Romans where Paul uses the word "saved".

In all instances apart from Romans 9:27, not one uses "saved" in the sense of being saved from enemies.

Rather, every instance refers to the salvation of the soul.

So Romans 9:27 also refers to the salvation of the soul.

Paul's acknowledgement in Romans 9:27 is consistent with his anguish in Romans 9:1-3.

He knew that only the remnant would experience the salvation of their souls.

Yes, I could quote a thousand places in an environmental handbook where "green" refers to "unpolluted." But that doesn't mean "green" can't be used elsewhere for the color of a tree or grass.

"Salvation" in the NT is being applied to pagans who are converting to the God of Israel. It isn't yet about the Christianization of nations because the Gospel began with individuals and small groups. Later, entire nations would convert to Christianity.

But the context in which Paul refers to Israel's salvation in Rom 11 has to do with deliverance from enemies. Of course, that requires spiritual salvation, which was always a part of obedience to the Law. Obeying the Law was both spiritual and material. It brought spiritual relationship between Israel and God. And it brought deliverance from divine judgment through repentance from sin.

So "salvation" can be applied to spiritual healing or it can apply to political deliverance, which of course also involves spiritual healing. Unless one gets spiritually healed, and repents, he or she will not be able to find deliverance from oppressors.

This clearly has its context in OT types of political deliverance, and not spiritual healing alone:

Rom 11.25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

You see, the 1st part has to do with spiritual healing, in experiencing a deliverance from a hardening of heart. But the 2nd part follows the spiritual healing, when the heart is softened, and Israel then is able to experience "deliverance."

As we are told, the "Deliverer will come." This means Christ comes to deliver Israel from her enemies, since she is now willing to repent, or prepared for that to happen.

 

[covenantee]

But the context in which Paul refers to Israel's salvation in Rom 11 has to do with deliverance from enemies.

It doesn't. That might be a dispensational argument, although I'm not even aware of such. It is not a historical Christian argument. It certainly isn't a Scriptural argument. Who can you cite for support?

So "salvation" can be applied to spiritual healing or it can apply to political deliverance

In Romans it applies exclusively to salvation from sin.

This clearly has its context in OT types of political deliverance

It doesn't. In Romans it applies exclusively to salvation from sin.

“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

The godlessness and sins to which Paul is referring have nothing to do with politics.

As we are told, the "Deliverer will come." This means Christ comes to deliver Israel from her enemies

Christ brings deliverance from sin by grace through faith. Nothing whatever to do with Israel's enemies.

 

[Keraz]

Sorry, that position honestly does not make sense to me. "All Israel" is just the salvation of a "remnant?" No way!

Only a remnant of Judah. Not of ALL Israel, who are as we are plainly told: is every faithful Christian person.
Revelation 7:9 and Isaiah 66:18b, say that Gods faithful Christian believers are comprised of peoples from every language.

Have you really considered the implications of a full redemption of the apostate, LGBT, false religion worshippers and who rely on their own strength: people of the Jewish State of Israel?
Such a thing means that God is partial, He does have favourites, He prefers sinners and rejectors of Jesus of 50 generations!
Your insistence on a general Jewish redemption is untenable and is never prophesied to happen.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It doesn't. That might be a dispensational argument, although I'm not even aware of such. It is not a historical Christian argument. It certainly isn't a Scriptural argument. Who can you cite for support?
In Romans it applies exclusively to salvation from sin.
It doesn't. In Romans it applies exclusively to salvation from sin.
The godlessness and sins to which Paul is referring have nothing to do with politics.
Christ brings deliverance from sin by grace through faith. Nothing whatever to do with Israel's enemies.

I have no respect for your answers when your answer is simply a statement of what you believe to be true. It doesn't impress me when you say, "That isn't true." It does impress me when you say, "I don't believe that's true because..."

You say Salvation "applies exclusively to salvation from sin" in Romans, and then provide not one answer to the proposal I just made, that the "Deliverer" is coming to deliver Israel from the destruction of God's wrath and from the destruction brought on by enemies of the Jewish State. What is the basis of your claiming "deliverance" is only from sin, and not from enemies?

Paul is referring, indirectly, to Jesus' claim that Israel would survive an age of "great tribulation" in which they would be in danger of annihilation by their enemies.

Matt 24.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Those words come from Dan 12, where Israel is predicted to suffer great tribulation requiring the angel Michael to stand up for the survival of Israel.

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Only a remnant of Judah. Not of ALL Israel, who are as we are plainly told: is every faithful Christian person.
Revelation 7:9 and Isaiah 66:18b, say that Gods faithful Christian believers are comprised of peoples from every language.

Have you really considered the implications of a full redemption of the apostate, LGBT, false religion worshippers and who rely on their own strength: people of the Jewish State of Israel?
Such a thing means that God is partial, He does have favourites, He prefers sinners and rejectors of Jesus of 50 generations!
Your insistence on a general Jewish redemption is untenable and is never prophesied to happen.

I understand that you're not open to any other position. There's nothing more I can really say at this point. I've made my arguments. God does convert the rebellious and the sinner. He does restore terribly backslidden nations, as He has already done for Israel numerous times in the OT period.

I don't redefine "Israel" to mean an international Church. Israel is a single ethnic nation, originating from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and consisting of a melting pot of all 12 tribes, now referred to as the "Jewish People."

Judah is not separate from Israel anymore. It was prophesied that the division of the 2 Kingdoms would end, and it was predetermined that all 12 tribes would become a single nation. Changing its meaning does harm to God's literal promises to Abraham. I won't go there.

 

[covenantee]

I have no respect for your answers when your answer is simply a statement of what you believe to be true. It doesn't impress me when you say, "That isn't true." It does impress me when you say, "I don't believe that's true because..."

You say Salvation "applies exclusively to salvation from sin" in Romans, and then provide not one answer to the proposal I just made, that the "Deliverer" is coming to deliver Israel from the destruction of God's wrath and from the destruction brought on by enemies of the Jewish State. What is the basis of your claiming "deliverance" is only from sin, and not from enemies?

Paul is referring, indirectly, to Jesus' claim that Israel would survive an age of "great tribulation" in which they would be in danger of annihilation by their enemies.

Matt 24.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

Those words come from Dan 12, where Israel is predicted to suffer great tribulation requiring the angel Michael to stand up for the survival of Israel.

Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

Colossians 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

No hint of Israeli politics.

Why are you unable to cite anyone from Church history who supports your perspective?