22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just going by your own words. Not twisting them at all.

Did you mean to say that all you're doing is twisting them? Because that's what you do all the time.

 

[jeffweeder]

while I agree.

that is not what the passage says

It says the strongman is bound so those in his darkness can come into the light.
Our faith in what we do not see saves us. 2Thess 2 below.

Your future millennium has billions perishing even when satan is supposed to be bound. Doesnt change anything as they remain outside the camp of the saints for the whole thousand years. Not even having the Glorified Christ and his Glorified saints fully observed for a thousand years makes any significant difference.

This is how God wants us to be saved....,


8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Stand Firm
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All this occurs at the appearance of his coming , after satan goes forth in all his power.
God bless

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then tell me where Jesus is ruling as He is described to rule in the bible! Do youy think present earth is what a kingdom ruled by Jesus would look like????

He rules from the right hand of the Father in heaven, as scripture clearly teaches. Have you never read this:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

This couldn't possibly be any more clear. He rules at the right hand of the Father in heaven "far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" in this world/age (Greek: aion). And the Father has "put all things under his feet".

You are making the same mistake that the Pharisees made by thinking that the Messiah's kingdom would be an earthly one. Not so. Jesus said His kingdom "is not of this world" (John 18:36) and "does not come with observation" (Luke 17:20). Why can't you accept that? When He returns at the end of the age He will be delivering His kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:22-28, Matthew 13:36-43).

 

[Timtofly]

So, now you are equating Amils with those who are part of false religions and cults. Real nice, buddy. I guess you've never read what Jesus said about judging others?

You introduced what nonsense is into the thread. There are lots of people who think Amil is nonsense. Just like you think pre-mill is nonsense. Just pointing out the facts. There are more Muslims and Mormons than Amil. Just pointing out that numbers do not negate some belief as nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ive been asking Admin for a better 'like' variety on the reply bar. In the meanwhile bro >>>

Thanks, bro, I appreciate it. I'd like to know how exactly a spirit being like Satan could be literally bound with a chain, anyway. No Premil has ever been able to explain that.

 

[Timtofly]

Josephus didn't flee.

Josephus put the event into the historical record. Obviously he believed it happened.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You introduced what nonsense is into the thread. There are lots of people who think Amil is nonsense. Just like you think pre-mill is nonsense. Just pointing out the facts. There are more Muslims and Mormons than Amil. Just pointing out that numbers do not negate some belief as nonsense.

I would never compare Premils to non-Christians like Muslims or Mormons. It doesn't get any more offensive than that. If you can't understand that then you have even less discernment than I thought.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your future millennium has billions perishing even when satan is supposed to be bound.

How do you come to that? Just curious.

 

[jeffweeder]

How do you come to that? Just curious.

Hi.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[covenantee]

Josephus put the event into the historical record. Obviously he believed it happened.

What did he say in his historical record?

Provide a verbatim copy paste.

 

[WPM]

lol. go look in the mirror my friend


You can't prove this, because anything that went against roman catholic doctrine was destroyed.



You have shown me WHAT YOU BELIEVE, your opinion. your view

As for highlighting Kai. Dude I give up trying to explain anything to you.. You make every excuse in the book to not discuss the actual passage.. Until you do so. I am done..

when you want to sit down, write the passage out. and go through it step by step and show me why it says what you believe. I will be all ears.

Of course you are not going to address any post, argument or Scripture directly as you would immediately have to admit that the Op is spot on. That is why you must run from this discussion. Your ongoing avoidance and admissions have reinforced the Op. For that I am most thankful. You have yet to bring anything to the table of evidential worth and nothing to corroborate your private opinion of Rev 20 apart from your private opinion of Rev 20. That highlights the sandy foundation that Premil is built upon. Scripture warns us of the folly of such a foolish foundation.

There has been nothing to rebut apart from your insults and avoidance. That is Premil in a nutshell, and why the reader should reject it.

 

[WPM]

That just means he saw that vision after seeing the previous vision. That does not mean what he saw in that vision had to occur after what he had seen in the previous vision. If that's how it worked then we'd have to conclude that what he described in Revelation 12 followed what he described in Revelation 11 chronologically, but we know that Christ wasn't born after the seventh trumpet.

Exactly bro! He has nothing else to put is hat on in the whole of Scripture.

 

[WPM]

How do you come to that? Just curious.

It is saturated with sin and sinners, crying and dying, decay and disease.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly bro! He has nothing else to put is hat on in the whole of Scripture.

Not surprisingly, he just completely ignores it when we point out the folly in his logic by showing how it would make complete nonsense out of Revelation 11 and 12. At least we know unbiased observers can see how faulty his interpretive approach is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is saturated with for sin and sinners, crying and dying, decay and disease.

Exactly. It only takes a "little season" of time for a number of them "as the sand of the sea" to change their minds from what they had believed for the past 1000 years and oppose Christ and His people. It makes the whole thing (establishing an earthly kingdom) seem completely pointless and a total failure. It makes a lot more sense for Christ to just destroy His enemies when He returns instead of pointlessly messing around for 1000+ years before doing so. Thankfully, that is exactly what scripture teaches will happen.

 

[WPM]

2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

He is satan
And he is bound

Your wrong about it representing satan only, and why is it obvious it should not be taken literally. Please explain

You are not getting it are you? In the figurative depiction it is the dragon that is thrown in prison and put in chains. It is metaphoric symbolism. The spiritual meaning of the symbolism is that it depicts the spiritual restrain that is upon Satan as the Gospel invades the nations since Christ's earthly ministry. But once again you miss the symbolism and you force a literal meaning on blatantly apocalyptic language. That is why you are so confused on Rev 20.

SJ is correct that the portrayal relates to a dragon. I know it is difficult for your literalist mindset to grasp that.

 

[WPM]

It represents a literal thing. And what is says she has done she has done.

Once again, Figurative things representing literal events, people, systems, or places.

Different from parabolic language where figurative things represent spiritual truths.

Revelation is written in an apocalyptic manner. It is not the symbol that is important. It is what the symbol means. Apocalyptic language is similar to parabolic language. It represents spiritual truths and literal ongoing spiritual events.

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Let us be crystal clear: invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

 

[WPM]

What?

The whole thing was a vision, He saw this, THEN that event happen

He did not say THEN he saw another vision. He said THEN something happened.

Why are you adding to the word of God?

Why are you angry? Just because you have no answer to the Amil arguments doesn't need you need to be nasty and insulting.

 

[WPM]

It seems to me the only real argument presented is that no, you obviously should not believe what this passage says.

He's bound, he's sealed into the abyss. He has no access to earth! What should we suppose that seal is about? Some half-hearted leaking gate, like a corrupt prison guard? Or like those whom God Almighty has set under seal, not to be opened until He Himself allows?

Much love!

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Did this indicate they were immobile? Did this mean they could not kill, steal and destroy? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

 

[WPM]

It seems to me the only real argument presented is that no, you obviously should not believe what this passage says.

He's bound, he's sealed into the abyss. He has no access to earth! What should we suppose that seal is about? Some half-hearted leaking gate, like a corrupt prison guard? Or like those whom God Almighty has set under seal, not to be opened until He Himself allows?

Much love!

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

So, were the unsaved Gentiles literal "prisoners" walking about in this world in literal physical "chains" confined to a literal physical "prison" before the cross?