Hath God cast away his people

[Vengle]

per my post #86

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


This one is too simple for men who relish being able to perceive and understand complexities. Their pride demands that it say more than it does.


The point is that God seeks to reconcile the world to himself. And these cast away ones are part of the world. Acts 10:34-35

It is just that simple.

And how is it possible?

Romans 11:16 “For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.”

When it says “so are the branches” it means any branch that is yet in rooted together as a lump in that true vine.

The Greek word for lump is about mixing or kneading dough. In that same way even the Gentiles mixed into that lump become holy.

Paul’s argument is then that if God mixed those blind ones back into Christ, they would become holy also.

And that is what takes place for any repentant persons of any nation.

It is not complicated at all to understand but for one whose pride wants them to see it more complicated.

You evidently did not understand when I said this concerning Romans 11:15:

"The point is that God seeks to reconcile the world to himself. And these cast away ones are part of the world. Acts 10:34-35"

Romans 11:15 "For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?"

Paul is merely reminding them that Christ gave himself for the life of the world and that includes those Jews that the Gentiles were being high-minded toward.

You over complicate things for yourself.

PS/ Sorry SIR.

 

[Insight]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Vengle, no doubt you have seen me spend considerable time in this verse and while you have refuted the clear OT echoes and symbols I perceive your denial of natural Israel can only last so long until it will appear “prideful and hurtful” to yourself.

From the above comment of Paul “and with them partakest” we find the branch grafted in to the good tree becomes part of it, so the Gentiles when embracing Christ are incorporated into the true Israel (as per Gal 6:16). They become part of "the hope of Israel", which Paul recognised as the basis of faith: Acts 26:6; 28:20. From your comments thus far I see you placed outside of that hope, not that I wish it so, for I want all men and women to be a part of this wonderful hope which is only found in Israel and for good reason!

The Greek partakest means a joint partaker!

Rather beautiful word is it not?

Also found only in 1 Cor 9:23; Phil. 1:7; Rev. 1:9 (as "companion").

For those who have eyes to see a special lesson is being communicated herein.

Can you see?

 

[Vengle]

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Vengle, no doubt you have seen me spend considerable time in this verse and while you have refuted the clear OT echoes and symbols I perceive your denial of natural Israel can only last so long until it will appear “prideful and hurtful” to yourself.

From the above comment of Paul “and with them partakest” we find the branch grafted in to the good tree becomes part of it, so the Gentiles when embracing Christ are incorporated into the true Israel (as per Gal 6:16). They become part of "the hope of Israel", which Paul recognised as the basis of faith: Acts 26:6; 28:20. From your comments thus far I see you placed outside of that hope, not that I wish it so, for I want all men and women to be a part of this wonderful hope which is only found in Israel and for good reason!

The Greek partakest means a joint partaker!

Rather beautiful word is it not?

Also found only in 1 Cor 9:23; Phil. 1:7; Rev. 1:9 (as "companion").

For those who have eyes to see a special lesson is being communicated herein.

Can you see?

That is why I said I was going to end this conversation with you.

I only posted again because I had not read logabe's comment when I posted that time and so I felt bad that I gave him so little consideration.

Bye!

 

[Insight]

That is why I said I was going to end this conversation with you.

I only posted again because I had not read logabe's comment when I posted that time and so I felt bad that I gave him so little consideration.

Bye!

Well Vengle,

It took us 17 verses for you to finally be confronted with the truth of Rom 11. The irony our study ended on the word partakest as we (sadly) part ways is indeed sad. Of course it was Pauls desire we should appreciate the great honour we have been granted to take part in their spiritual blessing through the Gospel of Christ. The word is one of working together and sharing in something greater than ourselves.

For the sake of the Gospel you wont mind if I press on toward the mark?

Insight

_______________________________________________________________________________________


For if the firstfruit (Holy Prophets) be holy, the lump (Natural Israel) is also holy: and if the root (The life giving promises) be holy, so are the branches (Spiritual Israel). And if some of the branches be broken off (AD 70) , and thou (Being one of the branches) , being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

Notice that we DON’T get our spiritual life from the Israel Branches, but both from the root!

I particularly love how the NIV translates the blessing we receive being grafted into the Israel tree.

Rom 11:17NIV "share in the nourishing sap" and check out the Rom 11:17NASB "the rich root of the olive tree". Rom 11:17YLT & Rom 11:17NET

More to come on the life giving sap!

 

[Vengle]

There goes that imagination again :lol:

Your so full of yourself.

 

[Insight]

Veteran

In hindsight it appears you comment has come to light.

It'll be interesting to see where the arrogance comes from when you get further down in Rom.11 where Paul gave the condition for the unbelieving part of Israel's blindness being removed. That is, if you ever do get that far in Romans 11. I expect Insight to hold you to it.

For if the firstfruit (Holy Prophets) be holy, the lump (Natural Israel) is also holy: and if the root (The life giving promises) be holy, so are the branches (Spiritual & Natural Israel). And if some of the branches be broken off (AD 70) , and thou (Being one of the branches) , being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

I looked up the word fatness Greek piotes, fatness which occurs only once in the entire NT!!!

It must relate to the physical state of the tree. The tree represents the true faith of the fathers: the covenants of Promise that provide great benefits for those who feed upon them (2Pet. 1:4).

by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

So really what Paul is teaching is we the gentiles are able to enjoy all the benefits that were originally limited to only natural Israel.

Some here will reject the faith and works that come from “the fathers” but those who understand the Israel of God tree, must continually be reminded of where and how we are given life.

We have been cut out of the wild olive (the nation of our birth), and incorporated into Israel (the nation of our faith: Eph 2:12).

Our natural fleshly desrires must now be replaced by what the "root and fatness" of the Israelitish olive supplies. There is no room for fleshly patriotism in the things of the Truth; we have put away these loyalties, even though it is "contrary to nature" to do so.

It appears Vengle has put away the Israelitish nature of his hope, a fact that he owe’s his spiritual life to "the root" he chooses not to acknowledge.

Many have only found a place in "the Israel tree" through the removal of unfaithful "branches" which has allowed for our "grafting in".

How foolish then to speak harshly of natural Israel; how wise to treat with sympathetic care and consideration the people of this nation with such a wonderful origin, and destined for a more glorious future.

Let us bear in mind that our spiritual existence depends upon the Israelitish root that feeds us!

And not some other root!

 

[Vengle]

How childish.

 

[Insight]

And once a believer in Christ comes to understand these arguments of Paul he then goes on to say definitively with assertion…

"Boast not against the branches" Rom 11:18NET

Vengle this is a personal warning to you “do not ignore the natural seed of Abraham”, in view of the great favour Yahweh has extended you a gentile.

If you have forgotten that the national Israel still form "the branches” then now you have been reminded.

For when they have been converted to Christ (Rom 11: 23), they will have an exalted position in the Kingdom of God, being classified as "the first dominion (when) the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem" (Mic. 4:8).

Gentile believers will be tested by circumstances just as the Hebrew as people came out of Egypt through the work of Moses.

To us gentiles Paul says: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:12).

Vengle, the basis of you faith is not being Gentile, but of Israel and the principles of divine selection must always be upheld!

Insight

 

[Insight]

"But if thou boast" Rom 11:18NET

I knew we would eventually arrive at this verse.

If we seek to glory (Gr. katakauchaomai elsewhere found only in Jas 2:13, "mercy" and James 3:14, "glory") in our special relationship with God to the exclusion of His relationship with Israel, then we are acting in opposition to His will.

You can brand me childish and call me many things but the reality has been presented to you and the Word rightly divided to show you truth.

Stand against Him if you must.

I will pray these words will fall upon you as in the days of Moses Deut 32:2

In the Hope of Israel

Insight

 

[Insight]

"Thou bearest not the root, but the root thee" Rom 11:18NET

Notice how careful Paul is to state where the Gentiles receive spiritual life?

The "root", and not the "branches".

It is the Abrahamic faith which gives us sustenance. See Bearest i.e Sustains

Paul could see the potential (or actual cases) where Gentiles were in actual danger of rejoicing over the fallen Jews. He warned them against taking this position.

But why?

Does it really matter how we view the Jews today? Surely we can believe whatever is right in our own eyes?

Now if Vengle wanted to glory in the root by all means go ahead! We were previous wild and unfruitful but now the very source of all blessings that come to Gentiles is found in the ancient heritage of Israel (from which Christ came).

The Gentiles derived their blessings of Abraham's faith and of the promises made to him and his seed (Gal. 3:29).

Many Christian do not know we are “in” Abraham as we are “in” Christ.

 

[veteran]

Veteran

In hindsight it appears you comment has come to light.



For if the firstfruit (Holy Prophets) be holy, the lump (Natural Israel) is also holy: and if the root (The life giving promises) be holy, so are the branches (Spiritual & Natural Israel). And if some of the branches be broken off (AD 70) , and thou (Being one of the branches) , being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Romans 11:16,17)

I looked up the word fatness Greek piotes, fatness which occurs only once in the entire NT!!!

It must relate to the physical state of the tree. The tree represents the true faith of the fathers: the covenants of Promise that provide great benefits for those who feed upon them (2Pet. 1:4).

by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

So really what Paul is teaching is we the gentiles are able to enjoy all the benefits that were originally limited to only natural Israel.

Some here will reject the faith and works that come from “the fathers” but those who understand the Israel of God tree, must continually be reminded of where and how we are given life.

We have been cut out of the wild olive (the nation of our birth), and incorporated into Israel (the nation of our faith: Eph 2:12).

Our natural fleshly desrires must now be replaced by what the "root and fatness" of the Israelitish olive supplies. There is no room for fleshly patriotism in the things of the Truth; we have put away these loyalties, even though it is "contrary to nature" to do so.

It appears Vengle has put away the Israelitish nature of his hope, a fact that he owe’s his spiritual life to "the root" he chooses not to acknowledge.

Many have only found a place in "the Israel tree" through the removal of unfaithful "branches" which has allowed for our "grafting in".

How foolish then to speak harshly of natural Israel; how wise to treat with sympathetic care and consideration the people of this nation with such a wonderful origin, and destined for a more glorious future.

Let us bear in mind that our spiritual existence depends upon the Israelitish root that feeds us!

And not some other root!

While I understand that, and agree with much of it, I also understand some of vengle's concerns, fear that this might be drawing a connection with the unbelievers of Israel that reject our Lord Jesus Christ The Root.

Many in the Church throughout its history have used The Gospel to try and separate themselves from just about everything concerning Israel, even to the point of using the lies of unbelieving Jews that they are the only seed of Israel, forgetting the house of Israel which were never Jews. Darby's Dispensatiionalist ideas of separating Israel apart from Christ's Church didn't help in that either, and neither did the battles in European history between those in the Church and the orthodox Jews.

I'm left with the understanding that a certain amount of that separation had to happen to further Christ among the Gentiles, for as Paul said concerning The Gospel, the unbelieving branches of Israel are enemies for our sakes (Gentiles) who have received The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Yet throughout western Christian history, there has always been a remnant of Israel that are Christian which God gave to understand His greater Plan involving the connection of His Israel (spiritual and natural) as Christ's Church.

Those well understood that Christ's Church was to have a literal structure here on earth according to the promises and covenants God gave to Israel, even to include rulers on thrones as defenders of The Faith and as givers of His laws. That happened in the Christian West, not in Jerusalem.

As the end of this present world draws closer, with that literal basis of Christ's outward Church being torn down by the workers of iniquity to cause apostasy, it would appear that God is once again reminding a few among the remnant of believing Israel how that structure in the West has fulfilled His promises to Israel through Christ's Church for both believing Israelites and Gentiles. For even the princes in that structure are haughty today, just as fallen Israel was in the days of the Old Testament prophets.

As long as the majority in Christ's Church remain ignorant of what the covenants and promises God gave Israel are about per the OT prophets, they won't understand how that has manifested through Christ's Church from the start. Instead, there are many within the Church wrongly preaching those promises are no more, and that they died with unbelieving Israel when God brought destruction upon Jerusalem by the Romans, Turks, and Saracens. Their not understanding this has also led to their misteaching of Christ's Salvation being up in the clouds of heaven instead upon this earth in the world to come. Thus, their inability to address all of God's Word as a whole, has led them into the 'snare', just like God forewarned in Isaiah 28 for refusing His Word line upon line.

 

[Insight]

While I understand that, and agree with much of it, I also understand some of vengle's concerns, fear that this might be drawing a connection with the unbelievers of Israel that reject our Lord Jesus Christ The Root.

I also have heard his concerns, however a far greater principle is being undermined and that is one of election. To remove natural Israel from God's past, present or future calling is in total opposition to the very foundation upon which Paul builds his argument.

I agree with your assessment of the church and its separation from the body of Israel, however our attitude must still comply with Rom 11:28.

For whom among us question why, how and when the Gentiles & Israel are called of God?

Any work to dilute their essential involvement in the Kingdom of God will not be accepted by the Yahweh, His Son, the Apostle Paul and even me a gentile dog who eats the crumbs under the table.

Insight

 

[Insight]

We all know that throughout the centuries the Jews have retained their national love of thier customs and rituals and the laws of Judaism. Here they honor their traditions at the Western Wall. However when Christ returns their reverence will be converted to a true understanding of their history and destiny - election will return to them as it has us. Rom 11:28,29
​

 

[logabe]

I wondered how you would get around the "lump"?

Failing to go back with Paul to Num. 15:18,19,20,21 is not helping you better understand Rom 11:16,17

You see now you are OUT OF CONTEXT with verse 15..

For if the casting away of them (natural Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Rom 11:15

Okay, let’s discuss Romans 11:15.

15 For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the
world, what will their acceptance be but life from
the dead?

It is obvious that Paul did not believe that Israel had been cast off forever.
He believed the prophecies that Israel would be regathered and that God
would seek out His "lost sheep" as prophesied in Ezekiel 34:11,

11 For thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I Myself
will search for My sheep and seek them out."

God says further to the house of Israel in Ezekiel 36:25-27,

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you
will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your
filthiness and from all your idols.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new
spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone
from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to
walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe
My ordinances.

Finally, He tells them in Ezekiel 37:22,

22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the
mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all
of them; and they will no longer be two nations, and
they will no longer be divided into two kingdoms.

In repairing the breach between Israel and Judah, God also intends to
repair the breach between Israel and the ethnos. Hence, the divine plan
called for hardening the hearts of both Israel and Judah, so that they
would be cast out. In their regathering, others would be gathered with
them (Is. 56:8), and all would have at least one thing in common--they
would share a common faith in Jesus Christ the King.

This is the resurrection of the house of Israel and of the Kingdom of God
itself, as prophesied in the valley of dry bones, for we read in Ezekiel 37:13,

13 Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I
have opened your graves and caused you to come
up out of your graves, My people.

This is Israel's "life from the dead" that Paul mentioned in Romans 11:15.
The salvation of the ethnos did not replace the salvation of Israel, as if
Israel would be lost forever, while the world would be assured of salvation.
Rather, the divine plan was to save Israel while revealing the door of
salvation to the whole world.

Some have said that salvation in the time of the Old Testament was for
Israelites only, and the rest of the world was excluded until the time of
Christ. That is wrong as well, for the door has always been open to all
men. The problem was that the door was too hidden in one small part
of the world, and it was very difficult--if not impossible--for people afar
off to find it.

God solved this problem by scattering and sowing Israel as seed in the
field in order bring forth a much greater harvest (Hos. 2:23). Hosea's son
Jezreel means "God scatters" and "God sows," and "the field is the world"
(Matt. 13:38). Hosea had made it clear that God's purpose in scattering
Israel was to sow them in the world, not to destroy them but to bring forth
an abundant harvest that would fulfill the promises to Abraham.

Logabe


It is impossible for you to argue this is not speaking to natural Israel, absolutely impossible!

So what is presented next?

Notice the word "For" a continuation of the previous thought...

For if the firstfruit (faithful forefathers) be holy, the lump (natural Israel = point Paul is making from verse 15) is also holy: and if the root (promises) be holy, so are the branches. Rom 11:16

Then Paul’s continues his thought with “And”

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Christians & Vengle), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:16

Your error is glaringly obvious for all to see.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

"But if thou boast" Rom 11:18NET

I knew we would eventually arrive at this verse.

If we seek to glory (Gr. katakauchaomai elsewhere found only in Jas 2:13, "mercy" and James 3:14, "glory") in our special relationship with God to the exclusion of His relationship with Israel, then we are acting in opposition to His will.

You can brand me childish and call me many things but the reality has been presented to you and the Word rightly divided to show you truth.

Stand against Him if you must.

I will pray these words will fall upon you as in the days of Moses Deut 32:2

In the Hope of Israel

Insight

You say you rightly divide it but I say you imagine it.

Your applications are are wrong and clearly by reason of your bias as to how you want what you read to apply.

And you just keep saying the same thing over and over resisting a true discussion of how Paul saw what he said.

Paul is my favorite Bible writer. I have lived on Paul's words. I have been a Christian for more than fifty years. And the way I love Paul and have so painstakingly turned over every possible stone to understand his every word, you can forget thinking you can come in and twist his words to your liking with me.

You want to make the election about natural Israel. It is not. The election was ordained to take place from before the founding of this world and it began at the founding of the world, long before the natural nation of Israel was created to fulfill a need in connection with getting the seed of promise to us.

That is too spiritually beyond you for you to even understand it. And you already have half a hundred ways in place to reason it away before you get a chance to see it.

I get a laugh out views such as Jehovah's Witnesses hold that confine that election to just the generation beginning with the church. They use the fact that Jesus said that the least in the kingdom of heaven was greater than John the Baptist to show that prior to Jesus' death there was no one who enters God's kingdom by Christ which is about the priestly/kingly rule over that thousand years. Even if what Jesus said about John means he will not be one of those it does not have to mean no others back to Abel will. That kind of logic is not logic. It fails to take enough of the picture into consideration.

The church is build upon the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets builded upon Christ the seed of promise.

Your view Insight wants to give Israel sole possession of the prophets when they were here long before Israel. Or you could even more narrowly assume that only means the prophets that wrote in our Bible. In that case your view is narrow like as JW's.

IEphesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
That does mean the group rather than the particular individuals but it also means that God planned to begin that choosing right then and there. It did not only start with the death of Christ in that generation. God has been selecting out the cream (the firstfruits) of this world from its beginning.

 

[Vengle]

It goads me that any generation would think itself so special that it is the sole possessor of the choice ones of God. As I see it, those who lived closest to Adam had far less distortion of the truth by man to deal with. The loyal of God closer to Adam had to have had access to direct knowledge of Adam which through time has been near lost if not totally lost to us. They were in a far better position to understand than we ourselves and to exclude them from God’s election of his choice ones from this earth is just shear lunacy.

We see that kind of arrogance displayed of the natural Israel. And indeed that was a big part of its purpose, to show us that. Indeed through their history that belief that God’s working with them made them special was their downfall. They were worked with as a special peoples but that merely means as compared to God’s not working at that time with the other nations. So they were only special with regards to the other nations not being at that time worked with.

Of course God would have a fondness of the child he is working with. Did that make them better as they thought? Did Jacob’s fondness of Joseph make him better than his brothers before he was sold into slavery? Only in the evil of the minds of his scheming brothers. Was Benjamin afterward better than his brothers just because Jacob had special fondness for him? It seems Joseph’s scheming brothers had learned at least to some extent not to think it was so. But the seed that came out of their loins somehow continued their first attitude.

That fleshly nation was only formed for the reason that the common man needed to be taught of and convicted of his sin, and to get us to the seed of promise, physically, mentally, and emotionally. But the elected ones of God have always been here from the beginning and already achieved that spiritually by faith. They already accepted that they were guilty and they already looked forward to that promised seed, understanding what he meant to them.

Jude 1:14-15 “And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

So then you might argue that Paul was elect and yet he did not know, for he plainly said that he would not have know lust lest the Law had told him. (Romans 7:7)

How easy we forget what Paul also said, Romans 1:18-21 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

Having read what Jude told us about Enoch at Jude 1:14-15, do we not now understand what Paul said at 1 Timothy 1:9-11 “Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”

I think the evidence shows that most of us are not smarter today and it is no wonder we cannot put the picture together properly. We are a generation particularly ignorant through arrogance.

 

[Insight]

The church is build upon the foundation of the Apostles and the prophets builded upon Christ the seed of promise.

I made my way through the guff to this and thought others more astute than I will certain lay a better foundation for you. You are a New Testament believer only; I see that now.

Have rejected the promises?

You do not hold a complete picture of the Scriptures.

btw I thought you moved on from these studies?

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

Yes, my ENT has showed those exercises to me. I watched some of the videos. Plus I have meds to combat it but don't like to take them unless I am having a bad day or days. I supposedly have what they call Meniere's Disease. I am going deaf with one ear totally gone already and the other half way there. Its a nuisance. I have had to live with it for so long now that I am used to it. If I get sinusitis it worsens until they clear up. So this time of the year I expect it. Like i said, I just figure I there is no point in stopping doing things because you may as well not be living if you do. I am not allowed to drive though because I can and often do have severe attacks so suddenly that its too dangerous.

Sorry to hear all that. My wife had SEVERE vertigo until she started doing the exercise.

 

[Vengle]

I made my way through the guff to this and thought others more astute than I will certain lay a better foundation for you. You are a New Testament believer only; I see that now.

Have rejected the promises?

You do not hold a complete picture of the Scriptures.

btw I thought you moved on from these studies?

Insight

I am a whole Bible believer.

You merely insist on keeping alive that which God declared dead.

The whole world became dead so it is not a slur against anyone.

Sorry to hear all that. My wife had SEVERE vertigo until she started doing the exercise.

Than you for your caring Duckybill.

I do not regret having it though for it has proved beneficial to me in ways that helped me to grow closer to God and understand more.

I have struggled with the problem for some 20 years now. It just has gotten worse as I got older. But it is OK. I would rather have had to bear it than not to have had to bear it and missed the things I have learned because of it.

 

[logabe]

Beginning in Romans 11:17, Paul begins to explain how some of the
"branches" of the Kingdom Tree were broken off and how other
branches were grafted in.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off,
and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among
them and became partaker with them of the rich
root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if
you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who
supports the root, but the root supports you.

Paul was referring primarily to the prophecy of Jeremiah 11, which is
a messianic prophecy of the plot against the coming Messiah.
Beginning in verse 9 we read,

9 Then the Lord said to me, "A conspiracy has
been found among the men of Judah and among
the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
10 They have turned back to the iniquities of their
ancestors who refused to hear My words, and they
have gone after other gods to serve them; the
house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken
My covenant which I made with their fathers.

The people were plotting against Jeremiah, who represented God and
was a type of Christ in this, for he is said to be "a gentle lamb led to the
slaughter." (Compare this with Isaiah 53:7.)

16 The Lord called your name, "A green olive tree,
beautiful in fruit and form"; with the noise of a great
tumult, He has kindled fire on it, and its branches are
worthless.
17 And the Lord of hosts, who planted you, has
pronounced evil against you because of the evil of the
house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they
have done to provoke Me by offering up sacrifices to
Baal...
19 But I was like a gentle lamb led to the slaughter;
and I did not know that they had devised plots against
me, saying, "Let us destroy the tree with its fruit, and
let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his
name be remembered no more.

Even as the people plotted against Jeremiah, so also did they plot against
the Messiah 600 years later. But the point of this is to show that Israel and
Judah was called "a green olive tree." God had planted this "tree" in the
land of Canaan in the days of Joshua, but when it came time to bear fruit,
its branches were "worthless." In Jer. 2:21, which is a similar prophecy, the
"vine" is said to have degenerated into "a foreign vine" on account of their
seeking after foreign gods.

The divine judgment for thus breaking the covenant is to burn up the
worthless branches. God does to the tree what the people had thought to
do to Jeremiah, who is himself pictured in verse 19 as "the tree with its fruit."
The judgment of the law is "eye for eye," or in this case, branch for branch.

The "wild olive" in Rom. 11:17 is obviously being grafted into the "tree" to
replace the branches that had been broken off. So in this sense the "wild
olive" represents the ethnos. They are not only non-Israelites by nature, but
ex-Israelites of the dispersion who had become "wild" by following after
other gods.

This "grafting" process is the prophetic expression of the regathering of Israel
and other ethnos into the Kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ.

The other side of the prophecy, of course, is the fact that some "natural"
branches were being broken off. These are the ones who had rejected Jesus
Christ, who is both the "root" (Rev. 22:16) and "true vine" (John 15:1).
Branches must be connected to Christ in order to have any life in them, for
Jesus said in John 15:4-6,

(4) Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear
fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can
you, unless you abide in Me. . .
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a
branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast
them into the fire, and they are burned.

Those who rejected Jesus Christ were branches that were cut off and
"thrown away as a branch." They cannot claim descent from Abraham as
a reason to remain "alive," for their life comes only by being connected to
Jesus Christ.

Paul only warns the newly-engrafted branches not to be arrogant against
those branches that had been cut off. It is as if he sensed that the Church
would later come into a position of power and would use that power to
oppress the Jews and punish them, trying to coerce them by the flesh into
accepting Jesus Christ. That is the "arrogant" spirit that Paul foresaw in the
Church.

The Law of God is impartial toward all. Those with faith are treated with
"kindness." Those who do not have faith receive the "severity of God." One
cannot appeal to a genealogical connection with Abraham to obtain God's
kindness (grace) or to avoid His severity. There is only one way to be a
branch on the Kingdom Tree. It is by faith in Jesus Christ alone.

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