Hath God cast away his people

[Insight]

I see what the problem is. I thought I saw signs of it before but I am certain now.

Your approach is one of pride, or you would not make sarcastic insinuations as you did there.

Your approach is steeped with the presence of being offended by the views of others which you cannot help but translate as being hatred toward Jews. And yes there is a bit of that hatred toward Jews by some in reality. But you are allowing it to infect you.

Don't worry, if God wants people to kiss your feet they will, if he doesn't, they won't.

I know you do not like that last statement. But don't you see that is the attitude you are taking?

Vengle,

Dont be offended so easily...the approach is one of warning as we shall soon see.

For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Vengle) , being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; (Rom 11:16,17)

This statement “wert graffed in among them “ highlights to us that from the earliest of times there has been only one developing community of faithful believers in the earth.

Not to be divisive, but that family cannot be JW’s, because they ignore the very tree and it branches, and also the Natural Root they know not. They do desire to think of the Spiritual Root only! This family cannot be the RCC as they would have none of Natural Israel, and have persecuted them although in recent years tried to reverse this image through many press releases.

Moreover, the Church (RCC) let it be understood that it was no longer striving to present itself as standing in opposition to Israel, no longer hoping to take the traditional place of the chosen people, but rather seeking a formula of coexistence which would no longer entail the classic vision of the "replacement" of Israel with the "New Covenant." http://www.eretzyisr...holicviews.html

So here is a spiritual test for you and your denomination, whatever it may be!

The faith of Abraham is fundamental to the apostolic faith. In this vivid imagery, the apostle demonstrates that Gentiles were being grafted into a (singular) tree which was already in existence, having sprung from the "root" of the patriarchs.

So far Vengle you deny this fact.

In view of Yahweh's purpose with Israel, the concept of God offering grace to Gentiles in preference to His own firstborn nation was "contrary to nature" (Rom 11:24) in a spiritual sense.

Under normal conditions, Gentiles could not expect to receive such abundantly generous treatment but they have.

So immediately this study takes us to one of absolute importance, for if we are not one mind on this subject (Vengle & Insight) then one of us is grafted to another tree, no doubt an apostate tree.

Now you can be upset with me and say all manner of sarcasm's but you have been warned, not by me, but Paul, an Israelite. Rom 11:1,2

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Don't fret your little heart Insight. I am absolutely not in any way offended by you. You can take to the bank that what I tell you is with your good at heart and not to demean you.

As I have said repeatedly, All I deny is your imagination. You waste so much of your energy trying to see finitely how what Paul says ties to the OT that you fail to really listen to him. And before you have really listened to him you can only accuse him of your interpretation of the OT. You have not listened to him to get his.

Be it you ought to know that you are unwittingly trying to keep alive a system that kills. Paul became dead to that Law that he might become wed to another. You want to hang onto that system which was designed to dispense Law in a way that enlivened the power of sin to kill. You want to drag it back to life. That is no different than the Rich Man in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man was trying to beg father Abraham to do.

What is now in Christ is nothing like that system which that fleshly nation was about. It is entirely a new creation.

One reason nothing you say stirs me is that I have complete faith that it is all ultimately in God's hands to make grow what will grow. And i am perfectly content to let be what will be, not being anxious or striving over what I want it to be. Because I want it to be exactly as God wants it to be and I do not try to decide how that should be for him.

Capish?

 

[Insight]

Be it you ought to know that you are unwittingly trying to keep alive a system that kills.

Vengle,

You are not making more assumptions are you?

Explain how this might be. Actually, read over my posts and provide evidence to the case.

Maybe this is just your way of dealing with the reality of Rom 11?

We will see.

 

[Vengle]

Vengle,

You are not making more assumptions are you?

Explain how this might be. Actually, read over my posts and provide evidence to the case.

Maybe this is just your way of dealing with the reality of Rom 11?

We will see.

That sounds fair.

I just popped back in to correct my spelling of the name Lazarus in my last post.

I am not feeling well tonight and the ailment I am forced to have to bear at times like as now causes the glaring of my computer terminal to cause me to have vertigo attacks. I have had three bad spells today. All while trying to ignore it and be on this computer. As I am stuck having to live with the problem I try to live despite it, but sometimes it just becomes beyond me to do.

So I am shutting it down for tonight and pampering myself for at least the remainder of this night.

I enjoy our discussions and have learned from them in many ways. So even if we do not agree on the main subject it is not without some gain.

Good night!

 

[Insight]

That sounds fair.

I just popped back in to correct my spelling of the name Lazarus in my last post.

I am not feeling well tonight and the ailment I am forced to have to bear at times like as now causes the glaring of my computer terminal to cause me to have vertigo attacks. I have had three bad spells today. All while trying to ignore it and be on this computer. As I am stuck having to live with the problem I try to live despite it, but sometimes it just becomes beyond me to do.

So I am shutting it down for tonight and pampering myself for at least the remainder of this night.

I enjoy our discussions and have learned from them in many ways. So even if we do not agree on the main subject it is not without some gain.

Good night!

Yes, I will turn in also. I do not suffer from Vertigo attacks but I do have four young vibrant children who attack me often.

Not to make light of your illness, but these ailments remind us of the infirmities we bare in the flesh and continually remind us of our earthly tabernacle, one which Paul looked forward to putting off. 2 Cor 5:4 2 Cor 5:1 and Peter 2 Pet 1:14NET

God bless your rest!

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

I am not feeling well tonight and the ailment I am forced to have to bear at times like as now causes the glaring of my computer terminal to cause me to have vertigo attacks. I have had three bad spells today. All while trying to ignore it and be on this computer. As I am stuck having to live with the problem I try to live despite it, but sometimes it just becomes beyond me to do.

Do a search on Youtube for 'vertigo exercises'. It works.

 

[brionne]

The point I’m trying to make is… physical Israel was used to bring
salvation to the ethos (nations).

Logabe

im only going to comment on this one point... it wasnt 'physical isreal' that would be used to bring salvation to all mankind... it was only the Messiah.

It was the Messiah who would give his life as a ransom in exchange for all... not the nation of Isreal.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ.

Notice how Paul makes that point... 'It says, not 'And to seeds as in the case of many'
It was due to the one seed, the Christ that all nations will be saved. So Abrahams seed is Christ Jesus....not the entire nation of Isreal.

 

[veteran]

The point I’m trying to make is… physical Israel was used to bring
salvation to the ethos (nations). That was the whole plan of God.
Hosea gives us the layout so we can look back and see the
purpose of God marrying physical Israel. God knew Israel was
going to rebel so; He used their rebellion as a positive rather than
a negative.

...

Logabe

Well said. Those who don't (yet) understand this, are relying only on part of The Bible, and the false idea that Christ's Church replaced Israel, when God's Israel actually became... Christ's Church 'all inclusive'.

 

[Vengle]

Do a search on Youtube for 'vertigo exercises'. It works.

Yes, my ENT has showed those exercises to me. I watched some of the videos. Plus I have meds to combat it but don't like to take them unless I am having a bad day or days. I supposedly have what they call Meniere's Disease. I am going deaf with one ear totally gone already and the other half way there. Its a nuisance. I have had to live with it for so long now that I am used to it. If I get sinusitis it worsens until they clear up. So this time of the year I expect it. Like i said, I just figure I there is no point in stopping doing things because you may as well not be living if you do. I am not allowed to drive though because I can and often do have severe attacks so suddenly that its too dangerous.

But back to the subject here, what I see the main problem in our conversation is that Insight sees that lump as the natural Israel when it is in fact the lump of the whole church which as Paul said at 1 Corinthians chapter 5 must be kept free of the leaven of the flesh.

A comparison of the way Paul uses words like firstfruits, lump, and root shows that he does not have a fixed application of them to that natural Israel but merely utilizes the principles of how that natural Israel was talked about.

That principle as it applies to firstfruits always remains that it is the choice first part of something which was given for use of the priests as they saw fit for the benefit of the entire nation of Israel.

So the firstfruits at Romans 11:16 is that remnant of natural Jews which first entered Christ under the New Covenant before grace was turned toward the Gentiles. Those first Jews that entered Christ are firstfruits from two perspects. All (both Jew and Gentile) are the choice firstfruits offered to Christ as the high priest but at Romans 11:16 Paul is speaking of them comparatively to the Gentiles as firstfruits of the church.

As long as you guys insist on finding proof to support what you want to believe about natural Israel you will find it. But will it be true or a mirage of your mind?

I solve the problem by not caring which one it is. Having no bias keeps me free of those mirages.

im only going to comment on this one point... it wasnt 'physical isreal' that would be used to bring salvation to all mankind... it was only the Messiah.

It was the Messiah who would give his life as a ransom in exchange for all... not the nation of Isreal.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. It says, not: “And to seeds,” as in the case of many such, but as in the case of one: “And to your seed,” who is Christ.

Notice how Paul makes that point... 'It says, not 'And to seeds as in the case of many'
It was due to the one seed, the Christ that all nations will be saved. So Abrahams seed is Christ Jesus....not the entire nation of Isreal.

I agree whole-heartedly with that.

But what is true by another perspective does not alter that.

And people often fail to be able to shift perspective to be able to understand. So as it does not accord with their narrowly fixed view they jump to the conclusion it is wrong rather than trying to understand it.

 

[Insight]

Well said. Those who don't (yet) understand this, are relying only on part of The Bible, and the false idea that Christ's Church replaced Israel, when God's Israel actually became... Christ's Church 'all inclusive'.

Simple, concise and true.

 

[veteran]

The only real "mirage" with this matter concerning "the commonwealth of Israel" which Paul preached in Ephesians 2, is the covering over the eyes of many about it, and how Christ's enemies have deliberately been attacking relocated Israel in the "wilderness", trying to destroy her. I speak not just of believing Jews of the "house of Judah" in the West, but particularly the "house of Israel" of ten tribes of Israel which were scattered to the West after their Assyrian captivity. Judah's captivity to Babylon was a completely different scattering and captivity than Ephraim's was.

 

[Vengle]

Simple, concise and true.

For some it may be but you are a fool if you think that of me.

 

[Insight]

Yes, my ENT has showed those exercises to me. I watched some of the videos. Plus I have meds to combat it but don't like to take them unless I am having a bad day or days. I supposedly have what they call Meniere's Disease. I am going deaf with one ear totally gone already and the other half way there. Its a nuisance. I have had to live with it for so long now that I am used to it. If I get sinusitis it worsens until they clear up. So this time of the year I expect it. Like i said, I just figure I there is no point in stopping doing things because you may as well not be living if you do. I am not allowed to drive though because I can and often do have severe attacks so suddenly that its too dangerous.

But back to the subject here, what I see the main problem in our conversation is that Insight sees that lump as the natural Israel when it is in fact the lump of the whole church which as Paul said at 1 Corinthians chapter 5 must be kept free of the leaven of the flesh.

A comparison of the way Paul uses words like firstfruits, lump, and root shows that he does not have a fixed application of them to that natural Israel but merely utilizes the principles of how that natural Israel was talked about.

That principle as it applies to firstfruits always remains that it is the choice first part of something which was given for use of the priests as they saw fit for the benefit of the entire nation of Israel.

So the firstfruits at Romans 11:16 is that remnant of natural Jews which first entered Christ under the New Covenant before grace was turned toward the Gentiles. Those first Jews that entered Christ are firstfruits from two perspects. All (both Jew and Gentile) are the choice firstfruits offered to Christ as the high priest but at Romans 11:16 Paul is speaking of them comparatively to the Gentiles as firstfruits of the church.

As long as you guys insist on finding proof to support what you want to believe about natural Israel you will find it. But will it be true or a mirage of your mind?

I solve the problem by not caring which one it is. Having no bias keeps me free of those mirages.

I wondered how you would get around the "lump"?

Failing to go back with Paul to Num. 15:18,19,20,21 is not helping you better understand Rom 11:16,17

You see now you are OUT OF CONTEXT with verse 15..

For if the casting away of them (natural Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Rom 11:15

It is impossible for you to argue this is not speaking to natural Israel, absolutely impossible!

So what is presented next?

Notice the word "For" a continuation of the previous thought...

For if the firstfruit (faithful forefathers) be holy, the lump (natural Israel = point Paul is making from verse 15) is also holy: and if the root (promises) be holy, so are the branches. Rom 11:16

Then Paul’s continues his thought with “And”

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Christians & Vengle), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:16

Your error is glaringly obvious for all to see.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

I wondered how you would get around the "lump"?

Failing to go back with Paul to Num. 15:18,19,20,21 is not helping you better under Rom 11:16,17

You see now you are OUT OF CONTEXT with verse 15..

For if the casting away of them (natural Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Rom 11:15

It is impossible for you to argue this is not speaking to natural Israel, absolutely impossible!

So what is presented next?

Notice the word "For" a continuation of the previous thought...

For if the firstfruit (faithful forefathers) be holy, the lump (natural Israel = point Paul is making from verse 15) is also holy: and if the root (promises) be holy, so are the branches. Rom 11:16

Then Paul’s continues his thought with “And”

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Christians & Vengle), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:16

Your error is glaringly obvious for all to see.

Insight

What makes you think Paul had to be speaking to them any differently than his common proven ways of using those words to the churches is only your bias. And that comes from your having your own preferred way that it should be and leaves you not really open to letting it be however God chooses it to be.

It is your will be done instead of his will be done.

 

[Insight]

What makes you think Paul had to be speaking to them any differently than his common proven ways of using those words to the churches is only your bias. And that comes from your having your own preferred way that it should be and leaves you not really open to letting it be however God chooses it to be.

It is your will be done instead of his will be done.

You are resisting not only the "context" but the spiritual symbols themselves.

How can this be?

 

[logabe]

logabe, you have sound understanding of what those prophecies are saying but for the application you make of them to the fleshly Israel.

It is exactly as you say but aimed at the creation of the spiritual Israel of God which is absolutely, unequivocally, and unarguably the one in Christ as Paul describes at Galatians 3:25-29.

The root of the stump of Jesse is in the flesh Abraham. But Abraham pictures God as Isaac pictured Christ Jesus.

God the root produced the roots Son through Jesse the stump which was a stump for the reason that it was cut down as an unfruitful tree. And that cutting down was God's having divorced Israel's unfaithful sister as he had Israel.

It was the fleshly stump that God divorced and the Law of God says that fleshly stump cannot be remarried. But through that fleshly stump the true Israel of God by faith was allowed to grow out of the one seed Jesus as God's Son.

And by that the fleshly Abraham's seed has found its life just as all nations of men.

You guys are preaching a subtle deception by making it about the flesh.

What I find interesting about the picture is that as Abraham is the root of the flesh that divorcing shows Abraham himself to be ashamed of that wayward fleshly seed so that he divorced it as well as God.

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation."

Matthew 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."

And guess what? God did raise up children to Abraham from the stones.


.

Vengle, I know exactly what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent.
God has callings for certain nations and individuals for His purpose. Every-
thing God does is for His Will. Let me explain.

Romans 9:4 & 5 makes it clear that there is great benefit in being a physical
Israelite. They had an advantage over other nations in that God called
Abraham and promised that he would be a blessing to all families of the earth.
He taught Abraham His ways. He revealed His law to Israel through Moses.
He even made a marriage covenant with Israel at mount Sinai.

This marriage was an exclusive relationship with God, even as all marriages
ought to be. Yet it did not mean that God hated all other nations, any more
than I would hate all other women as soon I married my wife. God loved all,
but He married Israel. God said in Amos 3:2,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

God could not divorce other nations, because He had never married the
other nations. Other nations suffer much oppression because of idolatry, but
God does not hold them accountable like He does with Israel. Israel's idolatry
was a matter of adultery. Idolatry in other nations was a matter of ignorance.
Paul asks the question in Romans 3:1 and 2,

1 What advantage then hath the Jew [Ioudeou or “Judean”]?
Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles of God.

In other words, the chief advantage of being a physical Judean, or Judahite (or
by extension, an Israelite) is that these people received the Scriptures. Even in
the past 2,000 years since Jesus lived on this earth, the chief advantage in
being an Israelite is that God saw to it that the Scriptures were given to the
Israelites of the dispersion in Europe very early in the early history of the Church.

Yet these advantages in themselves justify no man. A physical Israelite may be
of Abraham's seed, but to be counted as the seed one must be birthed from
above. One who is a mere physical Israelite has no advantage over Ishmael,
who was likewise Abraham's seed.

God's purpose in giving the Scriptures to Israel was so that they would be equipped
to take the gospel of the Kingdom to all parts of the earth. Unfortunately, the Church
largely failed in their responsibility. But we are now approaching a new era in which
the overcomers will shortly be sent out with an entirely new authority and spiritual
power to complete this work.

Logabe

 

[Vengle]

You are resisting not only the "context" but the spiritual symbols themselves.

How can this be?

Funny, that is what I see you doing.

You know you aren't going to change my mind in Insight's School of Opinion about what took me 40 years to learn.

Vengle, I know exactly what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent.
God has callings for certain nations and individuals for His purpose. Every-
thing God does is for His Will. Let me explain.

Romans 9:4 & 5 makes it clear that there is great benefit in being a physical
Israelite. They had an advantage over other nations in that God called
Abraham and promised that he would be a blessing to all families of the earth.
He taught Abraham His ways. He revealed His law to Israel through Moses.
He even made a marriage covenant with Israel at mount Sinai.

This marriage was an exclusive relationship with God, even as all marriages
ought to be. Yet it did not mean that God hated all other nations, any more
than I would hate all other women as soon I married my wife. God loved all,
but He married Israel. God said in Amos 3:2,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

God could not divorce other nations, because He had never married the
other nations. Other nations suffer much oppression because of idolatry, but
God does not hold them accountable like He does with Israel. Israel's idolatry
was a matter of adultery. Idolatry in other nations was a matter of ignorance.
Paul asks the question in Romans 3:1 and 2,

1 What advantage then hath the Jew [Ioudeou or “Judean”]?
Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles of God.

In other words, the chief advantage of being a physical Judean, or Judahite (or
by extension, an Israelite) is that these people received the Scriptures. Even in
the past 2,000 years since Jesus lived on this earth, the chief advantage in
being an Israelite is that God saw to it that the Scriptures were given to the
Israelites of the dispersion in Europe very early in the early history of the Church.

Yet these advantages in themselves justify no man. A physical Israelite may be
of Abraham's seed, but to be counted as the seed one must be birthed from
above. One who is a mere physical Israelite has no advantage over Ishmael,
who was likewise Abraham's seed.

God's purpose in giving the Scriptures to Israel was so that they would be equipped
to take the gospel of the Kingdom to all parts of the earth. Unfortunately, the Church
largely failed in their responsibility. But we are now approaching a new era in which
the overcomers will shortly be sent out with an entirely new authority and spiritual
power to complete this work.

Logabe

I am not at all flustered or disturbed. Please don't get that idea. But I see it is futility to discuss anything with you guys as you have an agenda that no amount of reasoning will penetrate.

All i would suggest is that you take all of those words and symbols and use the full scope of Paul's writings so that he can tell you how he uses them.

There is no point in our discussing anything until you do that.

Therefore this will be my last post here.

 

[veteran]

Vengle, I know exactly what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent.
God has callings for certain nations and individuals for His purpose. Every-
thing God does is for His Will. Let me explain.

Romans 9:4 & 5 makes it clear that there is great benefit in being a physical
Israelite. They had an advantage over other nations in that God called
Abraham and promised that he would be a blessing to all families of the earth.
He taught Abraham His ways. He revealed His law to Israel through Moses.
He even made a marriage covenant with Israel at mount Sinai.

This marriage was an exclusive relationship with God, even as all marriages
ought to be. Yet it did not mean that God hated all other nations, any more
than I would hate all other women as soon I married my wife. God loved all,
but He married Israel. God said in Amos 3:2,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

God could not divorce other nations, because He had never married the
other nations. Other nations suffer much oppression because of idolatry, but
God does not hold them accountable like He does with Israel. Israel's idolatry
was a matter of adultery. Idolatry in other nations was a matter of ignorance.
Paul asks the question in Romans 3:1 and 2,

1 What advantage then hath the Jew [Ioudeou or “Judean”]?
Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles of God.

In other words, the chief advantage of being a physical Judean, or Judahite (or
by extension, an Israelite) is that these people received the Scriptures. Even in
the past 2,000 years since Jesus lived on this earth, the chief advantage in
being an Israelite is that God saw to it that the Scriptures were given to the
Israelites of the dispersion in Europe very early in the early history of the Church.

Yet these advantages in themselves justify no man. A physical Israelite may be
of Abraham's seed, but to be counted as the seed one must be birthed from
above. One who is a mere physical Israelite has no advantage over Ishmael,
who was likewise Abraham's seed.

God's purpose in giving the Scriptures to Israel was so that they would be equipped
to take the gospel of the Kingdom to all parts of the earth. Unfortunately, the Church
largely failed in their responsibility. But we are now approaching a new era in which
the overcomers will shortly be sent out with an entirely new authority and spiritual
power to complete this work.

Logabe

Another good exposition.

God has not cast away His people which He did foreknow.

 

[Vengle]

Vengle, I know exactly what you are saying and I agree to a certain extent.
God has callings for certain nations and individuals for His purpose. Every-
thing God does is for His Will. Let me explain.

Romans 9:4 & 5 makes it clear that there is great benefit in being a physical
Israelite. They had an advantage over other nations in that God called
Abraham and promised that he would be a blessing to all families of the earth.
He taught Abraham His ways. He revealed His law to Israel through Moses.
He even made a marriage covenant with Israel at mount Sinai.

This marriage was an exclusive relationship with God, even as all marriages
ought to be. Yet it did not mean that God hated all other nations, any more
than I would hate all other women as soon I married my wife. God loved all,
but He married Israel. God said in Amos 3:2,

2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

God could not divorce other nations, because He had never married the
other nations. Other nations suffer much oppression because of idolatry, but
God does not hold them accountable like He does with Israel. Israel's idolatry
was a matter of adultery. Idolatry in other nations was a matter of ignorance.
Paul asks the question in Romans 3:1 and 2,

1 What advantage then hath the Jew [Ioudeou or “Judean”]?
Or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were
committed the oracles of God.

In other words, the chief advantage of being a physical Judean, or Judahite (or
by extension, an Israelite) is that these people received the Scriptures. Even in
the past 2,000 years since Jesus lived on this earth, the chief advantage in
being an Israelite is that God saw to it that the Scriptures were given to the
Israelites of the dispersion in Europe very early in the early history of the Church.

Yet these advantages in themselves justify no man. A physical Israelite may be
of Abraham's seed, but to be counted as the seed one must be birthed from
above. One who is a mere physical Israelite has no advantage over Ishmael,
who was likewise Abraham's seed.

God's purpose in giving the Scriptures to Israel was so that they would be equipped
to take the gospel of the Kingdom to all parts of the earth. Unfortunately, the Church
largely failed in their responsibility. But we are now approaching a new era in which
the overcomers will shortly be sent out with an entirely new authority and spiritual
power to complete this work.

Logabe

Sorry logabe, I did not really take time to read that as I was focused on Insight's comments.

But your comment is 100% on target.

I went back through my comments and see a few places where I could explain myself better.

I even found a couple places where I appear to myself to have been sleeping when I made the comment so that not even I agree with the particular thought.

That comes of many words. Especially when one is merely drawing out of their well of memory.

Insight confuses me because I see so many things that she does reason so well concerning yet in this subject it is like she is not even herself. It makes me wonder where that other person went. And seriously, what value is there in conversing with someone who is unwilling to see your point of view but just wants to think that you are only using the NT, or worse, that you are a hater of Israel.

Can you see my point that it does not matter how I or Insight or anyone of us see those words and symbols Paul uses, but only matters how he viewed and used them?

All one need do is type the word into their Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and read what Paul says everywhere he uses that word. How hard is that?

I go further than that into a study of the language but for all the effort I put into learning that I finally came to see that the important things we really need to know do not require a huge amount of intelligence if we think of intelligence by way of the world's definition of it. And that is what we ought to know we could expect of a God who loves us and who therefore does not over complicate things for his children. Even the way he hides things from those with pride like as Pharisees is actually so simple children can understand what he has said. A huge percentage of Christendom hides the truth from themselves because of their love of the complex logic. And the truth is that is because they need it to be complicated so they can feel pride that they are able to see it.

Add to that, a belief is no more stable than the premise and premises from out of which it is constructed. But even then there are often different perspectives that are true within the scope of what they look at. We need to be careful with any rule we make not to over use it. Balance is not a possession of many. The only reason I have learned balance is that the many years of not having it nearly wrecked me. So it was kind of an urgency that I leaned it. That is nothing to gloat over.

I will tell you what, the mechanics of blindness is quite the interesting study all by itself. I could wish everyone understood paradigms but the Bible has it right when it shows us that the principle thing is humility.

You see, when I first suggested to Insight that we discuss Romans 11 it was my response to her wanting to stay lodged back there in the OT. I realized that she puts a padlock against really reasoning on the OT due to the way she sees what Paul says, so I told her that we need to get the way she sees what Paul says resolved first or it would only keep her padlocked from truly being willing deep inside to reason on what we read of those OT prophecies. That is why I have ignored her attempts to drag it back there.

It has turned out that she also resists reasoning on what Paul says using what she thinks she has support for of the OT. She has her self locked into stubbornness on the subject from both directions. Each end padlocks the other end.

How do you get her to see that?

You don;t. You let go and let God.

 

[Insight]

Funny, that is what I see you doing.

You know you aren't going to change my mind in Insight's School of Opinion about what took me 40 years to learn.

Since when can one believer change the mind (or heart) of another?

Yawheh revealeth His secrets to men.

I will wait for His increase with patience.

Insight

Sorry logabe, I did not really take time to read that as I was focused on Insight's comments.

But your comment is 100% on target.

I went back through my comments and see a few places where I could explain myself better.

I even found a couple places where I appear to myself to have been sleeping when I made the comment so that not even I agree with the particular thought.

That comes of many words. Especially when one is merely drawing out of their well of memory.

Insight confuses me because I see so many things that she does reason so well concerning yet in this subject it is like she is not even herself. It makes me wonder where that other person went. And seriously, what value is there in conversing with someone who is unwilling to see your point of view but just wants to think that you are only using the NT, or worse, that you are a hater of Israel.

Can you see my point that it does not matter how I or Insight or anyone of us see those words and symbols Paul uses, but only matters how he viewed and used them?

All one need do is type the word into their Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and read what Paul says everywhere he uses that word. How hard is that?

I go further than that into a study of the language but for all the effort I put into learning that I finally came to see that the important things we really need to know do not require a huge amount of intelligence if we think of intelligence by way of the world's definition of it. And that is what we ought to know we could expect of a God who loves us and who therefore does not over complicate things for his children. Even the way he hides things from those with pride like as Pharisees is actually so simple children can understand what he has said. A huge percentage of Christendom hides the truth from themselves because of their love of the complex logic. And the truth is that is because they need it to be complicated so they can feel pride that they are able to see it.

Add to that, a belief is no more stable than the premise and premises from out of which it is constructed. But even then there are often different perspectives that are true within the scope of what they look at. We need to be careful with any rule we make not to over use it. Balance is not a possession of many. The only reason I have learned balance is that the many years of not having it nearly wrecked me. So it was kind of an urgency that I leaned it. That is nothing to gloat over.

I will tell you what, the mechanics of blindness is quite the interesting study all by itself. I could wish everyone understood paradigms but the Bible has it right when it shows us that the principle thing is humility.

You see, when I first suggested to Insight that we discuss Romans 11 it was my response to her wanting to stay lodged back there in the OT. I realized that she puts a padlock against really reasoning on the OT due to the way she sees what Paul says, so I told her that we need to get the way she sees what Paul says resolved first or it would only keep her padlocked from truly being willing deep inside to reason on what we read of those OT prophecies. That is why I have ignored her attempts to drag it back there.

It has turned out that she also resists reasoning on what Paul says using what she thinks she has support for of the OT. She has her self locked into stubbornness on the subject from both directions. Each end padlocks the other end.

How do you get her to see that?

You don;t. You let go and let God.

Would you mind replacing the "she's and her's" in your comments with a "him".

BTW I noticed not one Scripture in your response?

The below facts have been presented cohently concerning the OT symbols and how they apply to Paul's argument.

I wondered how you would get around the "lump"?

Failing to go back with Paul to Num. 15:18,19,20,21 is not helping you better understand Rom 11:16,17

You see now you are OUT OF CONTEXT with verse 15..

For if the casting away of them (natural Israel) be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? Rom 11:15

It is impossible for you to argue this is not speaking to natural Israel, absolutely impossible!

So what is presented next?

Notice the word "For" a continuation of the previous thought...

For if the firstfruit (faithful forefathers) be holy, the lump (natural Israel = point Paul is making from verse 15) is also holy: and if the root (promises) be holy, so are the branches. Rom 11:16

Then Paul’s continues his thought with “And”

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou (Christians & Vengle), being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:16

Your error is glaringly obvious for all to see.

Insight