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Hath God cast away his people

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Insight, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Ok…we see that Paul’s arguments are still centred on natural Israel.

    "For if God spared not the natural branches" Rom 11:21 NET

    The word spared i.e abstain.

    This lesson continues now with Natural Israel & Converted Gentiles being compared side by side, as Paul warns of the hidden dangers for us.

    Clearly we all know that God withdrew His protection from Israel, and allowed the Gentiles to oppress them by removing the ability to practice the Law, conduct worship in the Temple, Jerusalem sown with salt etc etc. all because they were not responsive to His care.

    We also know their sin was a wilful sin of unbelief, in that Israel was brought down and here Paul is warning the Gentiles that this same sin could be found amongst them, and no doubt was and is to this day.

    Paul is displaying incredible discipline in maintaining his argument that God has not cast off His people Israel.

    Insight
     
  2. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Do you imagine yourself a prophet?

    All I am saying is that you replace the important things with that nation. You make it the all important thing.

    And that is prideful dog doo doo. What God did he has done from the beginning for his love of the entire world.
     
  3. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "Take heed lest he also spare not thee" Rom 11:21NET

    So Paul continues with his exhortation…

    God will not preserve us the Gentiles unless we stand fast by faith and continue in His goodness (Rom 11:22).

    How vital is this warning which should be compare to 2 Pet 2:4 where the same word pheidomai occurs.

    An astitue believer should examine the very many reasons why divine judgment came upon Israel. Number one was hypocrisy!

    I have thought about this a lot and see how Paul is getting us to again go back into Israel’s history and by God giving us their example we today being the wild branches who are grafted into the good olive have the amazing example of the natural branches that have been cut out of the tree because they failed to produce fruit.

    In this matter we are left with greater responsibility.

    Do we “get” the exhortation?

    Or are we still wrestling with it!
     
  4. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Why is that?

    Is that so that we would see that nation as special above all other people? Absolutely not.

    1 Corinthians 10:6 "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."

    1 Corinthians 10:11-12 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."

    Who of us has argued any differently than that?

    Not one of us that I know of.
     
  5. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    So you believe the work God achieved in natural Israel was given only so you could learn about your salvation.

    We hear you Vengle "loud and clear"

    Insight
     
  6. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Evidently you don't hear me loud and clear.

    That Israel served multiple purposes (all of which I have mentioned in my posts) none of which were about showing that they were special above any other nation when correctly understood.

    I would hesitate even to say that they were more privileged than other nations as what was lain upon them was a heavy responsibility, for they were covenanted to an obligation to do what fallen man is incapable of doing.

    Wherefore I previously spoke of the sacrifice of the fathers for which you mocked me. But it is true that we owe them a debt of appreciation as I said, for the burden they bore on the world's behalf.

    Not that we should set them on a pedestal because of it.
     
  7. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Before we consider the Goodness and Severity of Yahweh we need to understand the basis of our hope.

    Our hope is in the future hope of Israel for good reason.

    "If ye be Christ's (that is by having put him on), then are ye the Seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3:29), or covenant. The Scriptures style this as being "one in Christ Jesus."

    No one here denies this truth.

    This "One" is not restricted to just many gentle believers as it is inclusive the whole Twelve Tribes, who are termed "the children of the covenant" in Acts 3:25, or its Seed.

    Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

    These are the “sons of the covenant” See and cmp Mat 8:12; 9:15; Luk 16:8.

    Christ being the covenant-sacrifice!

    Vengle has proved and objected that the twelve tribes are not Christ's, because they have not “put him on”; and so they cannot take part in Abraham's seed in the covenant sense.

    This is True! Natural Israel are not Christs yet!!! But we know the many prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled, and the pending New Covenant is yet to made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah, they will be both Ammi (my people) and Ruhamah (loved);

    "for I will have mercy on them, and they shall be called the sons of the living God." Rom 9:26

    Will they not be Christ's then?

    Clearly so!

    Insight
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That i would expect of you.

    Insight, I am going to here say to you what are probably the number one most important words that I have spoken to you if you do truly desire to know Paul. I do not always quote scriptures because I know you already know them.

    Like as Jesus was consumed of that zeal for God’s temple so that we saw him forcefully rid it of those money-changers, Paul’s zeal in his writings is always for the temple body of Christ, and for it alone.

    Paul worked twice as hard because of the zeal he formerly had in that blindness of Judaism and that fleshly Jerusalem with its physical temple.

    When you read of Paul seeming to make a boast in his flesh you are failing to comprehend what he says if you believe he is really boasting in his flesh.

    Go back and revisit every instance where you think Paul boasts in his fleshly lineage and examine to see what he really is saying.

    You will find that that boasting was him mocking those that did boast, and not that he really is boasting.

    He was just saying, “How dare you think your being able to boast in the flesh makes you something.” He was saying, “I could be just like you in boasting for I have more cause than you.”

    Until you understand that Paul saw that flesh as no more than refuge like as material goods, you will never really know Paul.

    When you take Romans 11 and make his focus to be that flesh you greatly error and see only your own imagination.

    But just look at what you imagine of me in your post as included here.

    May God rescue your heart. But you are going to have to do your part.

    This bears repeating for emphasis:

    Like as Jesus was consumed of that zeal for God’s temple so that we saw him forcefully rid it of those money-changers, Paul’s zeal in his writings is always for the temple body of Christ, and for it alone.
     
  9. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Who were the promises made to?

    Abraham and the Christ as stated by the apostle in Gal 3:9NET.

    To Abraham who is likened to a Father and to Jesus Christ, his son – he is also likened to an elder brother of the greatest family on earth; and that family was the inheritance bequeathed...

    When will the Will and testimony be enforced?

    Eph 1:10NET answers the question "the dispensation of the fulness of the times appointed," and revealed Luke 21:24NET ‘the times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled."

    The calling of Gentiles is yet to be fulfilled and the time for natural Israel to be grafted back in is yet to begin.

    We know the twelve Apostle will be established as Judges over the twelves natural tribes of Israel in the Kingdom age. Matt 19:28NET

    For how can Jesus be the King of Israel without natural subjects? Of course all Bible Students know this Kingdom will begin in Israel and move throughout the whole earth.

    At this time the Jews will be a praise in the earth “special” extremely so! Zech 8:23 – clearly this is unfulfilled!

    When this administration is established and all Israel is untied once again as a nation this must be in the covenant land, where they are now held under a new covenant being the sons of Abraham and brethren of Christ by nature and by faith.

    This future Israelish nation can only inherit by faith, and NOT by the old law.

    It says to Abraham and to Christ, Ye shall possess the land for ever.

    BTW notice the promise of the land by consequence is a promise of eternal life? For how can one inherit something forever if they themselves and not immortal.

    We all understand how we become one in Christ in terms of believing the Gospel and being baptized before the shutting of the door (Matt 25:10)

    Hence the need for us to preach!

    The work of Jesus Christ, the twelve judges and the saints will be to bring natural Israel into this New Covenant on a national level. Jer 3:15 and in fact the whole chapter into Jer is dealing with this New Covenant.

    The Apostle Paul understood this future work and forms the very basis of his arguments defending any who suggest God has cast off Israel.

    As we are finding in this discussion it is impossible for one to understand Romans 11 without first understanding how the future national Israel will be made Spiritual Israel…the Israel of God.

    Insight
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    If you believe nothing else I say, for the sake of your own mental stability and peace, believe that the truth whatever it is, even if not exactly how you thought, can in no way be disappointing.

    Love ya Insight.

    May God bless you.
     
  11. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle,

    We have already established you know nothing of the future administration of things on earth. Your rejection of natural Israel is your undoing in so many ways.

    You know not the calling and election of the Apostles and their future work in Israel and the whole earth. Nor the many prophecies of the regathering and uniting of the tribes of Israel under their righteous King.

    But in all this, Vengle you have objected, perhaps, "the Israelites are everything, and the Gentiles nothing."

    This is horrifying in your ears because you been accustomed to think everything is about Vengle, the great Gentile of Gentiles, and as a result you hold the Jews in contempt.

    But remember what the Scripture says to Gentiles, "Be not wise in your own conceit."
     
  12. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "And they also" Rom 11:23NET

    Paul has reminded the Gentile believers of their responsibilities and now returns to the core subject of the future of the Nation of Israel

    If they abide not still in unbelief Rom 11:23YLT

    As we have said time and time again, and Paul here continues to remind us. The basis of Israel's restoration to favour will only by faith.

    After the return of Christ, Israel will be instructed concerning the principles of the Truth, and will recognise the reality of Christ's work, fully acknowledging his Messiahship (as per Zech 12:10).

    The OT prophets understood the Israel will be brought into "the bond of the covenant" (as per Ezek. 20:37 & Jer. 31:31) at the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The "new covenant" will be established upon the basis of faith by which the sins of the nation "will be cast into the depths of the sea" (Mic. 7:19).

    So the recent regathering (1948) of the nation is but a small token of what is to come, and is preliminary to the great restoration prophesied by Peter (Acts 3:19).

    It’s a matter for every Gentile to understand the future work of the saints.

    Insight
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    “Israel are beloved for the fathers' sakes"

    Even Yahweh’s own His own Son was born a Jew.

    But His love to Israel, "whom he hath created for himself," flows from His love to that world which will inhabit the earth.

    If only you understood the magnitude of the Fathers love toward Israel and to all the earth.

    This is why it is said.

    "God be merciful unto us (Israelites) and bless us, and cause his face to shine upon us" but for what reason?

    "That his way may be known upon earth, his saving health among all nations. Ο let the nations be glad and sing for joy; for thou, Ο god, shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth" (Psa. 67:2NET).

    His ways shall be known through Israel, but this time through a righteous, loving perfect King.

    Even come Lord Jesus.
     
  14. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Israel "Shall be graffed in"… Rom 11:23NET

    How confident is Paul's comment! And how could he make such a strong assertion?

    Ah, he must have a correct understanding of the prophets:-

    Jer.3:12-4:2; Isa. 40:10; Jer. 31:31; 33:6,7,8,9; Ezek. 36:21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29; 20:41,42, and so on and so on.
     
  15. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "For God is able"

    The word "able" dunatos, indicating that which has power; is capable.

    Paul has continually built his argument to this understanding of God’s Power; that He is “able” to overcome their well-known stiff-necked and stubborn attitude. But little do Israel today know of the great and powerful judgements coming their way; He will pour upon that nation his wrath during the time of "Jacob's trouble" as per Jer 30:7, and the subsequent arrival of His Son.

    As we had alluded to us in Rom 11:1,2 Paul encountered a little taste of His judgements being blind three days. He stands a the true type of stiff-necked Israel likened to his personal conversion (Phil 3:10,11,12).
     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You are shaming yourself.
     
  17. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle, I thought you had moved on?

    This is the second time you have told us of your intentions and twice returned?

    And I am the one who is shaming himself.

    "Let your yes be yes and your no be no"

    Insight
    Heb 12:2 :)

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "To graff them in again" Rom 11:23NET

    Though it is beyond the ability of some here to accomplish this great salvation, God is able to achieve this purpose through the work of His Son. Paul uses the word "again" to remind Vengle that God will restore that which formerly Israel enjoyed under the covenant of David;

    Acts 15:17; Isa. 54:5; Hos. 3:5; Amos. 9:11

    Is the Word of God most powerful and beautiful in its teaching!

    May God be praised for his Mercy's toward Jacob...though we are yet to see them fully.

    Insight

    p.s check out whats coming up Rom 11:24NET

    What is easier to graft in; a wild olive, or a natural branch? [​IMG]
     
  18. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Acts 10:34 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:"

    Romans 3:9 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;"


    The faith is special. Not the man.

    Jesus would not even let one get away with calling him "Good Master" (Matthew 19:16-17; Mark 10:17-18; Luke 18:18-19), yet you have an entire teaching built around your idea that the Jews are special. You have even point blank called the wild olive branches "inferior" a few different times in your past posts, despite the scriptures never saying that.

    You are good at what you do. You at times deny what I say and then later state the same thing I said claiming I did not see it. And that is a sure sign of cunning in your way of teaching.

    You will have success for a while. It is supposed to be.
     
  19. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Hi Vengle,

    It’s hard to resist is it not? I understand.

    Your use of Acts 10:34 to imply God is a respecter of persons in choosing to use Israel to redeem this earth are flawed on many counts. The Work of salvation finds it source in Israel, from which came the Lord Jesus Christ. As per the promise which Jesus confirmed “that all nations of the earth shall be blessed in Abraham” deflates your argument rather quickly.

    Your comment about faith being special lacks balance. In the Fathers Eyes a “faithful man” is special i.e Jesus Christ. You really cannot separate the two…though you may try.

    Yes Jesus acknowledges that “goodness” can only be found in God – and you are right that Jesus while dwelling in sins flesh did not have that goodness “inherent” in him while wrestling with the flesh and its passions. Needless to say the Father response at his baptism is enough for me to know God’s mind concerning His faithful son “I am well pleased”!!!

    Are the Jews special? No more so than any other nation! You may be confusing the special nature of the work being performed in them.

    What makes them special?

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men (Gentiles) shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

    Maybe you should learn this lesson Vengle!

    From the outset you denied the context and content of Rom 11 even denying the blatant declaration of Paul in Rom 11:1,2. This study has revealed an essential lesson in sound Bible Study. If your foundation is in error the rest of the message cannot be understood.

    Rather than teaching you why the wild olive branch is inferior to the natural one I will let you do your own homework!

    In terms of being called cunning, I accept this as one held under my Masters command Matt 10:16NET

    This study could have been very fruitful “if” your foundation from the very start was correct. The substance of this study has proven your understanding is not complete.

    Maybe in time upon reflection these posts may come to carry the required understanding to build you up even higher to the glory of our Lord.

    God willing this is so.

    Insight
     
  20. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "For if" Rom 11:24NET

    Paul now reminds us that it is easier for God to graft in a natural branch than to do so with a wild olive branch.

    Should we be there at that time we will see it will prove easier to convert Israelites to the true faith when the "set time to favour Zion" (Psa 102:13) arrives, than it has been to change the hearts of Gentiles, even in these "times of the Gentiles".

    To refute this truth would be a show of total and utter arrogance of mind (not towards me) but Paul and God Himself!

    Insight
     
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