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Hath God cast away his people

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Insight, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Amen logabe.

    Beautiful assessment.

    The only thing I would add is that it was also important to their attitude as the preachers of the gospel of Christ even then, as is shown by Paul's references to that current preaching work at Romans 10:12-15; 11:13-14; 11:26-32.

    And I know that everyone wants to see Romans 11:26-32 as yet applying to the future.

    But it was present and future to every generation of whom that nation that was not a people but now are a people to incite them to jealousy was taken.
     
  2. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    There is one thing I would like to ask you, logabe. Well :) actually much more. It is just that I have such a sinus infection right now that I cannot keep my brain focused to be able.

    Do you know that Paul speaks of that promise to multiply the fleshly seed of Abraham as though it is already fulfilled?

    Hebrews 11:12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.”

    And again denoting that Paul saw that as already having been fulfilled on the flesh, Paul applies the following to his day:

    Romans 9:27 “Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved::

    The fact is that even our modern census is only an estimate of the world’s population.


    As Abraham pictured the one true God, Isaac pictured the Son of God who created the first Adam. ("Let us make man in our image")

    Jacob therefore pictures the first Adam. And Jerusalem as to the flesh pictures Eve. Proverbs 1:8 "My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother." Jerusalem as to the flesh is thus Jacob's wife who on behalf of her husband dispenses the Law to his children which was given to him of God as it was Adam.

    Thus Jacob's children were a picture of this entire world's people descended from Adam, the tribes merely denoting their national divisions.

    When Jacob's name was changed to Israel it denoted that a true contender for the faith of God would take the place of the first Adam (thus Jesus is referred to as the last Adam at 1 Cor. 15:45) so that those of the first Adam's children who also showed the faith to contend and endure God's discipline could be saved.

    So we see that really Israel as to the flesh was just God's picture to us of what he was doing with this world. That is why:

    Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

    God selected the most stiff-necked people in the world to create a picture for the world. And while he was at it he used them to get the seed of our salvation to us.
     
  3. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Logabe

    Thank you for you short study.

    I agree with most of what you have written, but it appears you have failed to present the entire picture as Paul has done so in Romans 11. In a chapter as this, which is primarily dealing with Natural Israel and Gods purpose with her; do you find it perculiar that Jesus Christ is not mentioned once.

    We have God (or Yahweh) and his covenant people (Natrual Israel & brief mention to Gentiles) as the only subjects of Romans 11.

    Why is that Logabe?

    I couldn’t help but notice how you took us to the Lord Jesus Christ in your above commentary; while Paul fails to do so.

    Insight

    p.s Vengle, before you jump to any unfounded presumptions. I am fully cognisant of the position of the Lord Jesus Christ in Yahweh’s plan and purpose with all creation, so please no predicable replies...but feel oblidged to answer the question.
     
  4. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I see no substance to your question to be able to give a direct answer to it.

    Who does Paul define the lump? He is the only NT writer to use the word.

    He applies it to Israel: Romans 9:21 “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

    He applies it to the church: 1 Corinthians 5:6-7 “Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:”

    He applies it as a principle: Galatians 5:9 “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.”

    So who does he apply it to here? Romans 11:16 “For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.”

    Answer: He applies to whom he is talking and that is the church. The lump is the mix of both Jews and Gentiles in the church. In other words, he was telling the Gentiles, “All of the branches both Jew and Gentile are holy because the root is holy and if others were grafted in they would be holy for the same reason.

    Those are the only occurrences of the word in the NT and all are used by Paul.

    One does not need to read into what Paul says to see this.
     
  5. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle, this response was predictable and prideful.

    Did the question pierce a conscience? If it was so meaningless as you suggest, why speak against its substance so brashly?

    I wonder if the opposite is to apply.

    We will see if one more astute will contemplate its meaning.

    Insight
     
  6. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    There you go with that imagination again. I said see no substance to it without so much as a shred of emotion. I mean I actually see no substance to it.

    Would you rather I lied to you?
     
  7. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Maybe you should spend more than 2 minutes looking for the substance? It's there if you ask the right questions.

    The Spirit does not omit the Lord Jesus Christ form the record for no reason!

    Keep thinking...I am confident the "penny will drop" so to speak.

    Insight
     
  8. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Logabe

    Sorry, I questioned the completeness of your study but failed to provide an explanation.

    You mentioned the salvation we receive in Christ Jesus but failed to apply the “root” which Paul does speaking to Natural Israel of the life giving promises.

    You and I know the Gentiles derives their spiritual life from Jesus Christ AND the promises. Now you cannot have the promises without Jesus Christ, and you cannot have Jesus Christ with becoming a benefactor to those promises.

    Paul explains it better than I.

    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Was Christ according to Abraham’s seed? Matt 1:1 ?

    Was Christ a benefactor to those promises? Matt 1:1 ?

    Why was Jesus raised up by God in the line of Abraham and David? Rom 15:8; Luke 1:32 ?

    Leave it with you...

    Insight

    Vengle...has the penny dropped? :)
     
  9. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Does this not set up chapter 11?

    Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
    17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
    18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
    19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

    Is not the core of that the gospel of Christ?

    You have really lost me as to what you might mean on this one.

    I see Christ here: Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
    And here: Romans 11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
    I see Christ in the tree and in the covenant that takes away their sins and in everything in chapter 11.

    Are you sure you don't want to withdraw this point?

    Hey, I mis-speak at times, too.

    Remember that Christ is the one that made those promises "YES" and not the other way around.
     
  10. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    No! not at all Vengle...you shall see.


    Maybe you should better understand Paul's arguments, his audience and why Jesus Christ (by name) is not mentioned at all in Romans 11.

    Insight
     
  11. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
    20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
    21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;


    Sorry but i just don't get what you are trying to say.

    As I showed just a couple posts ago, the one to multiply Abraham's seed as the sands of the sea is already fulfilled according to Paul. He tells us the remnant came from them.
     
  12. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Thou wilt say then (Vengle), The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:19NET

    Will you say Vengle, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Rom 11:19

    Oh dear, now we are getting to the nitty gritty of the matter! The argument of the presumptuous Gentiles might think they can say “you natural Jews were broken off so we Gentiles could be grafted in!”

    The Gentiles could display a show of gratitude of being grafted into the pioneer “root”, while at the same time claim a superior place over the branches that were removed?

    Paul stands firm against this evil attitude and declares this type of reasoning to be fleshly, one of pride!

    The Gentile branches were not superior in any way! Only that the original natural Jew lacked certain qualities, and became unfit to be associated with the tree.

    Vengle – this point is really very special and important and must be understood.

    Yahweh removed them, that is the unbelieving natural branches, that inferior branches, being the best available could be grafted into the original root !!!!

    But how exactly are you and I inferior – how is the wild olive branch being grafted in INFERIOR?

    Well, we are inferior in the sense that we Gentiles, are not naturally related to the promises given to the fathers (Abraham, Isaac & Jacob) and therefore we cannot claim association to "the fathers" on that basis.

    In this Vengle we cannot "boast" and to do so would be inappropriate as Paul here is teaching.

    Insight

    p.s "For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their (Israel's) spiritual things" Rom 15:27 How so?
     
  13. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I said that same thing once before.

    The way I see it is that none had to be broken off for anything but their own stubborn pride. If anyone thinks God blinded ones just to let Gentiles in irregardless of those ones that were blinded being meek sheep-like ones then they don't know God. God would not do that to a sheep. A goat can repent, though, and that is what Paul hoped for.

    Romans 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

    But that is the idea that many have. The fact is that few of those blinded ones will be saved. And that is just as it is in any nation.

    That is why narrow the road and cramped the way. Jesus said that to Jews, but it applies for us all.

    All one need do is comb the first chapter of Paul's letter to the Romans to see that Paul knew God blinds men in accord with the evil in those mens' own heart.

    Where does say that the wild branches are inferior? That I believe is a missed conclusion.

    Just because they had the advantage of the first to possess the oracles of God does not make them better.

    In fact Paul plainly said they are not better.

    Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
     
  14. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    p.s "For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their (Israel's) spiritual things" Rom 15:27 How so?

    As one body of course, lest there is division in Christ's body.

    The word "partakers" there goes back to the root "sun" which denotes a very close sharing. It is like the equality between husband and wife.

    But I know you know that.

    The first half reads, Romans 15:27a "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are...."

    Why? Not just because we have a debt of love and respect which Paul also says we owe all men, but because of what I said to you in an earlier post: those people went through a lot to get Christ to us and to enact the picture for us of how God's saving of the world works. That is much sacrifice compared to we who stepped right into grace.

    But now ought they to say that God owes them something beyond the Gentiles because of it?

    Would that not be the same ungrateful slave attitude if they did?

    We ought to all be content with what God gives us, being glad we got it.
     
  15. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Many times God tells us that He is a jealous God. (See Exodus 20:5; 34:14;
    Deuteronomy 4:24.) Since God married Israel at the foot of mount Sinai,
    God considered the nation to be His wife. But when God's wife played the
    harlot by going after foreign gods, they made God jealous. Israel made God
    jealous, so God made Israel jealous. He did this by favoring other nations,
    paying attention to them and treating them as if they were the chosen people.
    In doing so, He put Israel under their authority, as if to make other nations
    “chosen.” This plan was designed to make Israel jealous, so that they would
    repent of their sin.

    He divorced Israel for her adultery (Jeremiah 3:8) and actually ended the
    marriage covenant He had made with her at mount Sinai. Then in Acts 2,
    beginning with the fulfillment of Pentecost—the anniversary of God's
    marriage with Israel under Moses—God began to woo other nations as if
    to search for another wife. This was done to make Israel jealous, as Paul
    tells us, and as Moses had prophesied in Deuteronomy 32. This tactic was
    so ingeniously subtle that most people have entirely misunderstood it.

    According to the book of Hosea, when God cast off His people, Israel, He
    made them “not My people” (Hosea 1:9). Yet at the same time God made
    a promise that seemed totally impossible for Him to keep. It was the
    greatest riddle and mystery of all time. He said in the next verse,

    10 . . . In the place where it was said unto them, ‘Ye are
    not My people,' there it shall be said unto them, ‘Ye are
    the sons of the living God.'

    In Hosea 2:20-23 we read that God was going to “betroth thee unto Me” once
    again, and . . .

    23 I will say to them which were not My people, ‘Thou
    art My people,' and they shall say, ‘Thou art my God.'

    Since the divine law forbids a man to remarry his ex-wife after she has
    remarried another man (Deuteronomy 24:1-4), it was unlawful for God to
    ever remarry Israel. But Paul gives us the answer in the New Testament.
    In Romans 7:1 & 2 he points out that death ends the marriage covenant.

    1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that
    know the law) how that the law hath dominion over
    a man as long as he liveth?
    2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound
    by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but
    if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law
    of her husband.

    Paul is not saying that marriage covenants end ONLY in death, for even
    the divine law allowed divorce (Deut. 24), and God Himself divorced
    Israel (Jer. 3:8). Paul is simply telling us that the death of the husband
    also ends the marriage covenant. Jesus Christ was the Husband of Israel
    (Jeremiah 3:14), and when He died, the old covenant with Israel ended,
    for that was a marriage covenant. Judaism, which relies upon a continuing
    old covenant, pretends to have a continuing marital relationship with God,
    but they are merely “playing house.”

    In 1 Corinthians 7:39 Paul mentions this principle again, adding that the
    widow is free to remarry after the death of her husband.

    39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her
    husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she
    is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only
    in the Lord.

    This is why Jesus had to die to remarry the House of Israel. He died and
    was raised again as a new creation (legally speaking). The law viewed
    Jesus as a new man. Hence, He is able to remarry Israel without violating
    the divine law. But first, Israel must leave her present lovers with whom
    she has been playing the harlot—depicted by Hosea's wife, Gomer.

    Logabe
     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Her is a point to ponder logabe.

    The law also forbade a son to marry his father's wife at anytime, even after the father was dead.

    We see Paul had that sin occur in the Corinthian church.

    1 Corinthians 5:1 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife."

    There is no way possible that God could remarry that original Israel. And it was not the Son that Israel was married to but the Father.

    The New Covenant church Paul said is specifically "married to another man".

    Romans 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

    So you have that backward. It was not the husbands death but hers.

    Paul said, Romans 7:4 "Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

    The death of Christ merely sealed their death because it marked his completion of a faithful life course fulfilling that Old Law.

    Ephesians 2:1 "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

    Ephesians 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

    That is a tricky one. :)

    But that also shows us that the Israel of God (which is Christ and his bride) is a totally new creation.

    Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

    Please do not fret that though. The only reason I knew is that I made that same mistake. It is an easy one to make.

    I am getting a sense in my spirit that I am yet missing something about this. Hang loose and let me see what it is telling me.

    I will be back.

    Yes that is correct what I said above. I will explain it in a bit more detail later and share what I just learned.
     
  17. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Waiting....
     
  18. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "Because of unbelief they were broken off” Rom 11:20NET

    So now Paul draws us to the cause. They rejected Messiah and as such were taken back into exile from the land and removal from the arena of God's mercy. The Master prophesied of this (Luke 20:16NET) and reminded his listeners that they would lose their inheritance if they were to act unfaithfully to the calling of the nation.

    "And thou standest by faith"

    Paul understood that natural Israel was called from Egypt and protected by the divine overshadowing "for the fathers' sakes" (Rom 11:28NET), as such every Jewish child was automatically inducted into the nation and automatically took part in the promises (1 Cor 10:2); but our calling (Gentiles) was individual based on understanding and a confession the principles of Truth.

    standeth to cause to stand; to be made to stand. (a marvellous word with very deep meaning!)

    Paul understands that natural Israel while in exile as he speaks they will also at a future time be called to participate in this faith upon which the Gentile converts now stands.

    Paul cleverly uses two words to describe their position (Gr apistia : no belief; faithlessness) in contrast to each other: "unbelief" and "faith" (pistis : belief).

    The Jew lost his position because of unbelief; the Gentile is only "established" in his place because of belief.

    See the contrast?

    Paul is still appealing to the Gentiles that the unbelief / belief has reversed, where once you were strangers from the commonwealth of Israel, because of unbelief, now they (natural Israel) are strangers from the Gospel of Grace through Christ because of unbelief.

    Paul's point continues - It will now always be so!

    Insight
     
  19. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I'm sorry Insight but you have yourself a bit dazzled. :lol: I appreciate that you are earnest in what you say but you are reading way to much into those words.

    All one need realize is that for God to prove the sin that is is man and convict the entire world of that sin per Romans 3:19, God took a nation of people and treated them as though they were able of their own to justify themselves by Law and without excuse for not doing so. But God never intended to use that whole nation for anything other than to convict the world of sin and to lead not only them but the entire world to the savior of the world. That is why all their killing themselves through the Law did is open the way to grace for them.

    This proves that: Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
    All the promises made to them were hinged upon their being able to do what Romans 3:20 says they could not have done. And that is why none of the promises are in them but in Christ only.

    Remember?

    2 Corinthians 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
    20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
    21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;

    That is where you error. You keep making your argument that the promises are in them.

    I know it fells good to have the wisdom to see deeply, but that is also how we render ourselves unable to see.

    :rolleyes: And now you will hit me with more "Thou Vengle" and stupid questions based on your judging me by Matthew chapter 20 like as "Did you drop your penny?"

    You just do not see yourself man. :lol:
     
  20. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle

    It appears you have continually struggled to enter Rom 11 (from the very start you showed resistance) and then further confrontation was seen when Paul reasoned from the OT Scriptures.

    Now for the 10[sup]th[/sup] time we all understand that the promises and "confirmed" in Christ - no arguments here!

    You have my permission to let go!

    But sadly you cannot see why Paul is defending natural Israel?

    Not once have you got on topic so to speak,...but away with some private interpretation?

    While I have tried to get you to see the core message it still appears to be lost on you.

    While you continue to see Israel as "just another nation" your future vision of the Kingdom of God is a dark one.

    "Salvation is of the Jews" and you don’t understand the "hope of Israel" that Paul was bound with...but you keep imagining a vain thing.

    I cannot stop you.

    Insight

    p.s Have you worked out why Paul did not openly preach Jesus Christ in Rom 11?

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Be not highminded, but fear" Rom 11:20NET

    I think this is important Vengle as I see a hidden warning here concerning natural Israel and the converts. The type of fear is one found in the possibility of them themselves being cut off just as Israel was for the very same reasons!

    This is not an emotional fear but a more practical reverential fear which will correct their wrong understanding concerning natural Israel.

    It’s actually the type which you need to display but haven’t thus far in our discussions.

    Now I appreciate you and I were not present during AD 70 but I have spent many years studying this event and by no means was this a Sunday afternoon picnic.

    God’s judgment against Israel were terrible (not wrong) but violent and severe! See Prov. 28:14; Phil. 2:12; 1 Pet. 1:17; 3:15

    I will leave you to have a look at the word “highminded” only used here 1 Tim. 6:17.

    Maybe you could comment?

    Maybe you could also comment on 2 Thess 1:8
     
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