Is God finished with Israel?

[Eternally Grateful]

Why do you look for another day, when He already came and declared that His time was then at hand?

I tell you--such is the lie of strong delusion.
​

As for the remnant, "It is finished." Their house is left desolate.

then there is no need for a remnant.. All Israel also will not be saved.

 

[Dropship]

The only jews who'll be saved are the ones who become Christians BEFORE they die, otherwise they'll be going up the spout along with all other Jesus-rejecters..

 

[covenantee]

I am not making grammatical argument. The remnant are Hebrews.

Define remnant:

1. a small remaining quantity of something.

In this case, the term applies to a remaining quantity of Hebrews, which has a history in the Bible. Consider Ezekiel 5:1-3
Here God commands Ezekiel to shave his head. He is to divide the hair three ways and bind a few strands in his robe. In that context, God explains the meaning of this symbolic act. "One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them."

And what of the few strands of hair that Ezekiel put into his robe? He is take some of them an place them into a fire. From this we can see that the population of the Hebrews is decreasing to such a great degree, that there will only be a very small fraction left. The Bible refers to these folks as "a remnant." Isaiah calls them "survivors".

Those Hebrews who survive, sanctified and assembled in Jerusalem, will serve to sanctify the name of God, when Jesus returns to protect them from ultimate destruction.

The remnant are Israelites.

Comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22)

 

[The Light]

More about the 144,000 of Revelation 7...

All... of those 144,000 are shown being 'sealed' with God's seal in prep for the end. That means, they ALL are under Christ Jesus, because that 'sealing' is about the receiving of The Holy Spirit thru Faith on Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:12-13).

So far, so good.

That proves what about the 144,000?

It proves they make up a group of Christ's elect in His Church.

Nah. It proves that God is keeping His promise to the Chosen. They are 144,000 from the 12 tribes. They are not part of the mostly Gentile Church. The Church is already in heaven. See Revelation 4 and 5.

And since Revelation shows that only those NOT sealed with God's seal can suffer the 'stinging' there, that reveals these 144,000 are SEALED PRIOR TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION. (So they ain't... some 'tribulation saints' idea that the false pre-trib rapture theory teach.)

First off, they are of the 12 tribes, so they are not the Gentile Church. Secondly, if you understood that the seals, trumpets and vials are not the same timeframe, you would understand that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 14 occurs in the seals, which I think you understand, because I think that you believe that the seals, and trumpets and vials are the same time frame, but they are not. The trumpets and vials are the same time frame, but the seals stand alone and in fact, the seven trumpets cannot happen UNTIL the seventh seal is opened.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

All that said, if you understood that the tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins, you would understand that the 144,000 are in heaven and are not on earth, during the wrath of God, so they are not on earth during "the stinging" that lasts 5 months at the 5th trumpet.

 

[covenantee]

1 John 4: 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.

You make the bible contradict itself. And when you do not get your way you bear false witness against the one your arguing with. You have lost the ability of rational thinking. So I am done. I may counter a point or two you make in the future for the benefit of anyone reading your stuff. But I am done with you. I will pray for you.

1. That you can see Gods promises
2. That you will learn to have faith in his promises

Not only the promise to the nation of people God called out. But the promise God made to his adopted children.

Eternal means forever.. I pray you come to understand what that means.

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I will pray for you, that God will replace your carnalized eyes with the eyes of spiritual discernment which recognize that Christ and His Church are the fulfillment of all of God's promises, the heirs of all of His blessings, and His Chosen People from the foundation of the world.

Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

Consequently, not even Christ Himself is permitted to replace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism claims it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's presumed entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, "evil", "heretical", and various other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it:

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

Jesus declares Himself to be the Fulfillment of all things concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Other Scriptures confirm His declaration, and further declare Him as Beneficiary of all of the promses, and Heir of all things:

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:

Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all”

Notice that Israel is conspicuous by its absence in the foregoing declarations.

The reason: They have nothing to do with Israel.

And everything to do with the One Seed and Heir.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

 

[ScottA]

Your right, I agree..

There is no comparison between what an abomination of desolation is

and what a destruction is. they are two different things


No. My faith is on what the term means, What jesus understood the term to mean, and what any jew in the day of Christ would determine it to mean.



Antiochus epiphanies did this very thing. And it was called an abomination of desolation. In fact it was prophesied by Daniel the prophet.

Daniel 11 speaking of the greece empire and an army coming from Cypress
Dan 11:
29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.

“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.


This was historical fact. when Epiphanies sent his army and had a pig slaughtered in the holy place just as prophesied taking away sacrifice and burnt offering

You can read it for yourself. it is historical fact.

as for the word

abomination - hebrew siqqus - vileness - a state of detestable uncleanness, vile, and idol, or the pagan God which it represents, a repulsible things which causes covenanential uncleanness

desolation - mesomem - desolate. to be astonished or appalled

as for the greek

abomination - bdelygma - abomination, a detestable thing - an abomination which desolates a horrible thing which defiles.

desolation - tes eremoseos - devestation, desolation making desolate., or making so it is uninhabitable.

in both greek and hebrew it is seen as an idol. or detestable thing which makes something desolate




Maybe you need to stop saying, and start researching??

show us where the pig was slaughtered,

Show us where the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus is standing in the holy place happened, and how they saw it

matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

the army did not make the holy place desolate by destroying it. The army did what Daniel fortold. the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary.

the abomination of desolation would be made by the prince who is to come. long after the events of 70 AD (see daniel 9)

I did show, but the reader has not understood.

 

[Davy]

Jesus said to the Jews (who were expecting an earthly messiah/king) that His kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.

And that is correct, Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world (present world) per John 18:36. But David's throne, which God promised David would last to all... generations, isn't Christ's Kingdom until Lord Jesus Himself comes to sit upon it, on earth.

I'm sorry that your teachers have not taught you about this, but most preachers are prevented from covering this matter from God's Word because those in control over their pensions might fire them if they do. I'm not tied to their pension blackmail system, so I'm not scared to teach it.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

That is a prophecy Jacob gave to his son Judah for the "last days" (Genesis 49:1). These matters in Genesis 49 are what Jacob was telling his twelve sons in that chapter, what would befall them in the last days. So this is prophecy still in effect today. Here is what that verse is about...

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah" = the idea of the sceptre is the rod given to a king or queen at their coronation and represents power of the royal monarch. That royal sceptre is to remain with the tribe of Judah on earth until...

"nor a lawgiver from between his feet" = care of God's law also is to remain in Judah's care until... . This is why there are so many Jews in the law systems of nations today, especially in the western nations. ("You're fired preacher, for saying that!" No I'm not, I'm not tied to their controls over the mainstream denominational organizations of men. There's a reason why orthodox Jews are so staunch when it comes to knowledge of God's law. It's because God ordained it to happen for this world. And thusly, many of God's laws governing Christian society are established in the free nations because of it.)

"until Shiloh come" = Shiloh was a city in Ephraim in the holy land. It was where the tabernacle was first setup in the holy land per Joshua 18. Here it is used as a name for Lord Jesus Christ. So the previous events will CONTINUE TO EXIST ON EARTH until... Jesus comes, is the proper interpretation of this so far.

"and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." = this should make it more simple to understand that Lord Jesus is meant here. To Jesus is Who that gathering is to at His future 2nd coming on the last day of this world.

In 2 Samuel 7, God revealed to His servant David that He would establish David's throne forever, to all generations. David wondered about that, for he understood God was speaking of a very long time, and not just a few generations of his own children...

2 Sam 7:18-19
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, "Who am I, O Lord GOD? and what is my house, that Thou hast brought me hitherto?

19 And this was yet a small thing in Thy sight, O Lord GOD; but Thou hast spoken also of Thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?"
KJV

Most preachers just stop right there and say something like, "well that means Christ upon David's throne forever", and even start pointing to the false idea that Christ must already... be sitting on David's throne in Heaven since the cross, which is not written, because David's throne is an earthly throne which Lord Jesus (Shiloh) is to inherit when He comes, like God prophesied through Jacob per the above Genesis 49:10 verse.

The following is another version about David's throne on earth similar to the prophecy in Genesis 49:10 about it, but not many recognize it...

Ezek 21:26-27
26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
KJV

The first "overturn" was with Zedekiah, king of Judah and house of David, in the days of Jeremiah the prophet. God sent Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, upon Jerusalem and he destroyed the city, wall, and temple of Solomon. He killed all of Zedekiah's son heirs, poked king Zedekiah's eyes out, and carried him in chains to Babylon where he died. Only Zedekiah's daughters survived and were under the care of Jeremiah, their kinsmen redeemer by birth (Jeremiah was kin to the royal family).

 

[ScottA]

if the gap theory is not true.

God is not perfect. . Because he said things would happen, and they did not. so he got it wrong.

You not perceiving what has happened does not mean it has not happened.

 

[ScottA]

then there is no need for a remnant.. All Israel also will not be saved.

What need for a remnant is there after "It is finished?"

Nonetheless, all the promises of God are true.

 

[Enoch111]

I believe these are 144000 missionaries sent to all the world as a witness to christ...

I am not sure where you get this from the Bible text.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I did show, but the reader has not understood.

you showed me your view..

And you do not understand what the word said.. I showed YOU what abomination and desolation means..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You not perceiving what has happened does not mean it has not happened.

well maybe you can show us where it happened?

and explain in detail how the events which were prophesied came true?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What need for a remnant is there after "It is finished?"

Well Paul said there was a remnant LONG after it was finished. so ask him wehat need there was?

Nonetheless, all the promises of God are true.

Yes they are. God keeps his promises. Not only to the saved. but to the nation.

If he does not keep one of them, we have no hope he will keep the other one

 

[Enoch111]

Those who think all the 144,000 are JEWS show they don't know their Bible history.

What does the actual Bible text say? Are you suggesting that John was delusional?

REVELATION 7: THE TWELVE TRIBES OF ISRAEL
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
1. Of the tribe of Juda[h] were sealed twelve thousand.
2. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand.
3. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
4. Of the tribe of As[h]er were sealed twelve thousand.
5. Of the tribe of N[a]pthali[m] were sealed twelve thousand.
6. Of the tribe of Manasse[h] were sealed twelve thousand.
7. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand.
8. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand.
9. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
10. Of the tribe of Z[e]bulon were sealed twelve thousand.
11. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand.
12. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

There is absolutely no indication that these 144,000 are missionaries. Indeed they are raptured to Heaven immediately (Rev 14) and stand before the throne of God.

NOTE: The KJV translators transliterated the Greek spellings instead of translating into the Hebrew equivalents. Thus Judah became "Juda" etc.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Jeremiah 50:4-5 refutes you;
In those days and at that time, [when all the holy Land has been depopulated and made desolate; verse 3] the people of Israel, [the Christian peoples, representing the 10 Northern tribes] and the people of Judah, [the surviving Jews] will come together and in tears go in search of the Lord their God. They will go to Zion, [Jerusalem and all of the holy Land] and will make the new Covenant with the Lord, [Jesus will appear to them; Revelation 14:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:10

You are hooked on the idea of a Jewish redemption because it is a vital part of the false 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. Neither is said to happen anywhere in the Bible.
If the Lord is really going to forgive the Jews for their rejection of Jesus, then why not every atheist? God will take vengeance on His enemies. Nahum 1:2

I don't see how my interpretation of Jeremiah 50:4-5 is in error. Rather than reinterpreting Israel in terms of the Christian church, just interpret Israel as the God fearing Hebrews.

I think my interpretation fits the text better.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If we read again in 2 Samuel 7, we'll see that God was promising an eternal throne and eternal kingdom to David's descendant. I think even David didn't cotton on to that, because the gospel had not yet been revealed. One key to understanding scripture is to be "comparing spiritual with spiritual"....another key is to understand that "He speaks to us in parables" (types/shadows/similitudes).

Notice also in that same chapter that David's tabernacle is NOT a Temple. If we see a messiah figure coming to dwell and rule from a physical Temple, that is one way to know that it isn't the true Messiah. The idea of a temple to worship God was a pagan idea to start with, He allowed Israel to build Him one, but that was only His permissive will, just like He allowed Israel to have a king like the pagans had (Saul). God/Christ dwelling/tabernacling with man is in the temple of our vessel and in His church, by His Spirit, not in a grand building made with the hands of men. We are His temple.

Did David sit on the throne of David?

 

[CadyandZoe]

No...the three wise men make a better fulfillment of Deut 29:22.

Besides, Jesus used "this generation" many times referring to His generation. Did you look them all up? If the "gap" theory of Daniel's prophecy were true, that would make Jesus psychotic. The theory doesn't hold water.

Okay, but I don't hold to the gap theory of Daniel. The Seventy weeks ended three years +/- after the resurrection.

But go back to Deuteronomy 29 where Moses talks about a generation. I don't see how three men constitutes a generation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why do you look for another day, when He already came and declared that His time was then at hand?

I tell you--such is the lie of strong delusion.
​

As for the remnant, "It is finished." Their house is left desolate.

I couldn't argue that the Day of the Lord already took place.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The remnant are Israelites.

Comprised of both Jews and Gentiles. (Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22)

Think about it again. I cited the definition of remnant, hoping you would understand that when the Bible talks about a remnant, it is talking about a fraction of the Hebrews. By definition Gentiles are not included in the remnant.

But if one should make up definitions along the way, then any teaching is possible.

 

[Lizbeth]

And that is correct, Jesus said His Kingdom is not of this world (present world) per John 18:36. But David's throne, which God promised David would last to all... generations, isn't Christ's Kingdom until Lord Jesus Himself comes to sit upon it, on earth.

I'm sorry that your teachers have not taught you about this, but most preachers are prevented from covering this matter from God's Word because those in control over their pensions might fire them if they do. I'm not tied to their pension blackmail system, so I'm not scared to teach it.

Gen 49:10
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
KJV

That is a prophecy Jacob gave to his son Judah for the "last days" (Genesis 49:1). These matters in Genesis 49 are what Jacob was telling his twelve sons in that chapter, what would befall them in the last days. So this is prophecy still in effect today. Here is what that verse is about...

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah" = the idea of the sceptre is the rod given to a king or queen at their coronation and represents power of the royal monarch. That royal sceptre is to remain with the tribe of Judah on earth until...

"nor a lawgiver from between his feet" = care of God's law also is to remain in Judah's care until... . This is why there are so many Jews in the law systems of nations today, especially in the western nations. ("You're fired preacher, for saying that!" No I'm not, I'm not tied to their controls over the mainstream denominational organizations of men. There's a reason why orthodox Jews are so staunch when it comes to knowledge of God's law. It's because God ordained it to happen for this world. And thusly, many of God's laws governing Christian society are established in the free nations because of it.)

"until Shiloh come" = Shiloh was a city in Ephraim in the holy land. It was where the tabernacle was first setup in the holy land per Joshua 18. Here it is used as a name for Lord Jesus Christ. So the previous events will CONTINUE TO EXIST ON EARTH until... Jesus comes, is the proper interpretation of this so far.

"and unto him shall the gathering of the people be." = this should make it more simple to understand that Lord Jesus is meant here. To Jesus is Who that gathering is to at His future 2nd coming on the last day of this world.

In 2 Samuel 7, God revealed to His servant David that He would establish David's throne forever, to all generations. David wondered about that, for he understood God was speaking of a very long time, and not just a few generations of his own children...

2 Sam 7:18-19
18 Then went king David in, and sat before the LORD, and he said, "Who am I, O Lord GOD? and what is my house, that Thou hast brought me hitherto?

19 And this was yet a small thing in Thy sight, O Lord GOD; but Thou hast spoken also of Thy servant's house for a great while to come. And is this the manner of man, O Lord GOD?"
KJV

Most preachers just stop right there and say something like, "well that means Christ upon David's throne forever", and even start pointing to the false idea that Christ must already... be sitting on David's throne in Heaven since the cross, which is not written, because David's throne is an earthly throne which Lord Jesus (Shiloh) is to inherit when He comes, like God prophesied through Jacob per the above Genesis 49:10 verse.

The following is another version about David's throne on earth similar to the prophecy in Genesis 49:10 about it, but not many recognize it...

Ezek 21:26-27
26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.

27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.
KJV

The first "overturn" was with Zedekiah, king of Judah and house of David, in the days of Jeremiah the prophet. God sent Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, upon Jerusalem and he destroyed the city, wall, and temple of Solomon. He killed all of Zedekiah's son heirs, poked king Zedekiah's eyes out, and carried him in chains to Babylon where he died. Only Zedekiah's daughters survived and were under the care of Jeremiah, their kinsmen redeemer by birth (Jeremiah was kin to the royal family).

Shiloh (David's son...the Son of Man) did already come in the first century, and became the King of Israel and will be forever, as the Lord promised David.