Is God finished with Israel?

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Eternally Grateful

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Keep believing the lie if you want, but Jesus claimed it ("Your house is left to you desolate"). The abomination was what was done to Him. He did not make the Holy place unclean, they did.

I will believe what i t is.. Abomination comes from a word which means an idol or unclean thing. Desolation means left desolate. And jesus said they woudl SEE IT STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE

That never happened.

We have an example when antiochus epiphanies did this very act by slaughtering a pig (an unclean thing according to the law) in the holy place. Rendering the temple inner holy of holy room unclean. Putting and end to sacrifice and Burt=nt offering.

Sacrifice and burnt offering continued until the temple was destroyed. Deteroying a temple is not an abomination of desolation. It is total destruction.

It has never happened..
 

Eternally Grateful

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Hebrews 10
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
1 John 4: 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who remains in Him sins continually; no one who sins continually has seen Him or knows Him.7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.

You make the bible contradict itself. And when you do not get your way you bear false witness against the one your arguing with. You have lost the ability of rational thinking. So I am done. I may counter a point or two you make in the future for the benefit of anyone reading your stuff. But I am done with you. I will pray for you.

1. That you can see Gods promises
2. That you will learn to have faith in his promises

Not only the promise to the nation of people God called out. But the promise God made to his adopted children.

Eternal means forever.. I pray you come to understand what that means.
 

CadyandZoe

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Paul expounded in the present tense. You claim it is in the future tense.

There's delusion there.

You'll notice that Paul's list does not include salvation, hence Paul's anguish in recognizing that only a remnant would be saved. (Romans 9:27)

Salvation is for the "all Israel" "children of the promise".

Both Jews and Gentiles.
I am not making grammatical argument. The remnant are Hebrews.

Define remnant:
  1. a small remaining quantity of something.

In this case, the term applies to a remaining quantity of Hebrews, which has a history in the Bible. Consider Ezekiel 5:1-3
Here God commands Ezekiel to shave his head. He is to divide the hair three ways and bind a few strands in his robe. In that context, God explains the meaning of this symbolic act. "One third of you will die by plague or be consumed by famine among you, one third will fall by the sword around you, and one third I will scatter to every wind, and I will unsheathe a sword behind them."

And what of the few strands of hair that Ezekiel put into his robe? He is take some of them an place them into a fire. From this we can see that the population of the Hebrews is decreasing to such a great degree, that there will only be a very small fraction left. The Bible refers to these folks as "a remnant." Isaiah calls them "survivors".

Those Hebrews who survive, sanctified and assembled in Jerusalem, will serve to sanctify the name of God, when Jesus returns to protect them from ultimate destruction.
 

CadyandZoe

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I would take that a step further. "All Israel" means every tribe of the 12 tribes of Israel in which there will be believing Jews after the Second Coming of Christ. And "Palestine" would be "Greater Israel" from the Nile to the Euphrates (perhaps 10 times the size of modern Israel). Israel and Jerusalem will be redeemed and restored and there is a huge number of prophecies speaking of that. But that is only after the Second Coming of Christ. So anyone denying this is simply ignorant.
144,000 maybe? :)
 

CadyandZoe

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Not that I have not already given the information, but do an online Bible search of the words "this generation" and you will see that Jesus spoke to that very generation and the people He then walked among. No, it was only unbelief that has lead many to believe that all He said would not "shortly take place" just as He said, for which they developed the false gospel now believed. But don't continue to believe it--in addition to strong delusion, all truth was also foretold.

Nothing remains unfulfilled except the times of the gentiles--even those days "as the days of Noah" are upon us even now.
There is another generation to come. Refer to Deuteronomy 29:22. I think Jesus is contrasting "this Generation" referring to, as you say, "the people he then walked among." With a future generation as specified in Deuteronomy 29:22.

Yes?
 

CadyandZoe

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No...but Israel has become "the dead in Christ" as many died before salvation came, but have proceeded "we who are alive and remain." Thus, it is written: "But many who are first will be last, and the last first."
True, but as Paul said speaking of the Hebrews, God always reserves for himself a remnant. During the time when God decides to restore his holy name, some of the remnant will survive the day of the Lord and be present to see the coming of Jesus Christ.
 

Enoch111

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144,000 maybe? :)
I believe that the 144,000 redeemed Jews from every tribe are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel. (Definitely NOT the fantasy of the Jehovah's Witnesses). That vision also confirms the meaning of "all Israel".

But for the naysayers and scoffers we have the words of Christ to His apostles -- that the twelve apostles of the Lamb would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28). So when the apostles came to Christ just before His ascension and asked as to when He would restore the kingdom to Israel, that was a reflection of what had been promised earlier. Of course, only the Lord knew that the Church Age would intervene before the redemption and restoration of Israel. Therefore they were given the Great Commission instead.
 
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Keraz

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Those Hebrews who survive, sanctified and assembled in Jerusalem, will serve to sanctify the name of God, when Jesus returns to protect them from ultimate destruction.
Jeremiah 50:4-5 refutes you;
In those days and at that time, [when all the holy Land has been depopulated and made desolate; verse 3] the people of Israel, [the Christian peoples, representing the 10 Northern tribes] and the people of Judah, [the surviving Jews] will come together and in tears go in search of the Lord their God. They will go to Zion, [Jerusalem and all of the holy Land] and will make the new Covenant with the Lord, [Jesus will appear to them; Revelation 14:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:10

You are hooked on the idea of a Jewish redemption because it is a vital part of the false 'rapture to heaven' of the Church. Neither is said to happen anywhere in the Bible.
If the Lord is really going to forgive the Jews for their rejection of Jesus, then why not every atheist? God will take vengeance on His enemies. Nahum 1:2
 

Davy

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I believe that the 144,000 redeemed Jews from every tribe are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel. (Definitely NOT the fantasy of the Jehovah's Witnesses). That vision also confirms the meaning of "all Israel".

But for the naysayers and scoffers we have the words of Christ to His apostles -- that the twelve apostles of the Lamb would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28). So when the apostles came to Christ just before His ascension and asked as to when He would restore the kingdom to Israel, that was a reflection of what had been promised earlier. Of course, only the Lord knew that the Church Age would intervene before the redemption and restoration of Israel. Therefore they were given the Great Commission instead.

Those who think all the 144,000 are JEWS show they don't know their Bible history.

The title of 'Jew' is derived from the sole tribe of Judah, and was applied only to those of the southern "kingdom of Judah" at Jerusalem-Judea after the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms. The Jewish historian Josephus said that title of 'Jew' is what those who returned from the 70 years Babylon called themselves, and so did all those living in the lands of Judea (including the strangers).

So who made up that "kingdom of Judah" per God's Word?

That history begins at 1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 17, and then forward. The southern "kingdom of Judah", or "house of Judah", was made up of only the tribes of Judah and Benjamin at first, with Solomon's son Rehoboam of the house of David as king over them. Then the tribe of Levi was joined with them when the Levites couldn't perform their duties among the ten northern tribes of Israel under king Jeroboam which God setup. And per 2 Chronicles 11, a small remnant of the northern ten tribes also refused the calf idol worship in the northern kingdom, so they went south also and joined with Judah.

"house of Judah", or "kingdom of Judah" = tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, and small remnant of the ten northern tribes.

"house of Israel", or "kingdom of Israel" = tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, Naphtali, Dan, Gad, Asher, Reuben, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulun. (These were separated from Judah, Benjamin, and Levi of the southern kingdom. These ten tribes dwelt in the northern land, and made up the "kingdom of Israel" which God gave to Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim, per 1 Kings 11. These were scattered by God when He brought the kings of Assyria upon them and took them all captive to the lands of Assyria and cities of the Medes (2 Kings 17). Only the "kingdom of Judah" remained in the land.

The ten tribes of Israel are still lost today, have still yet to be joined back together with Judah, and that won't happen until Jesus returns to fulfill Ezekiel 37 about the two sticks being put back together. The Jews do not know where the ten tribes are, nor who they are, but God knows. And even most of the lost ten tribes don't even know their heritage as the larger portion of the children of Israel, because God caused the majority of them that went into their Baal worship to forget Him, and God's holy days and sabbaths, etc. They became as Gentiles living among Gentiles, the curse of Deuteronomy that God warned.


Therefore... the proper interpretation of the 144,000 per Revelation 7:4-8:

JEWS = tribes of "Juda", "Levi", "Benjamin", (and some small remnants of the other tribes which have taken the name Jew also, and became under Judah).

NON-JEW ISRAELITES (lost) = tribes of "Reuben", "Gad", "Aser", "Nepthali", "Manasses", "Simeon", "Issachar", "Zabulon", "Joseph".

Notice that the tribe of Dan is left out, and "Joseph" is put there instead of the tribe of Ephraim. Dan fell into idol worship first, and Ephraim is to fall away at the end. But both are put back in final per Ezekiel 48. If the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh are counted as separate tribes, then there are actually 13 tribes of Israel, not just 12.
 

Davy

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More about the 144,000 of Revelation 7...

All... of those 144,000 are shown being 'sealed' with God's seal in prep for the end. That means, they ALL are under Christ Jesus, because that 'sealing' is about the receiving of The Holy Spirit thru Faith on Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 1:21-22; Ephesians 1:12-13).

That proves what about the 144,000?

It proves they make up a group of Christ's elect in His Church.

And since Revelation 9 shows that only those NOT sealed with God's seal can suffer the 'stinging' there, that reveals these 144,000 are SEALED PRIOR TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION. (So they ain't... some 'tribulation saints' idea that the false pre-trib rapture theory teach.)
 
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CadyandZoe

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Race has nothing to do with it at all, once Christ Jesus was understood ! No one comes to the Father but through his only begotten Son!
Did I mention race? I don't think I did. I argued from the text of Genesis concerning the nations of Israel and Judah. It isn't about race; it's about a nation.
 
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Lizbeth

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Did Jesus sit on the throne of David? I think he was raised to the right hand of the father right?
If we read again in 2 Samuel 7, we'll see that God was promising an eternal throne and eternal kingdom to David's descendant. I think even David didn't cotton on to that, because the gospel had not yet been revealed. One key to understanding scripture is to be "comparing spiritual with spiritual"....another key is to understand that "He speaks to us in parables" (types/shadows/similitudes).

Notice also in that same chapter that David's tabernacle is NOT a Temple. If we see a messiah figure coming to dwell and rule from a physical Temple, that is one way to know that it isn't the true Messiah. The idea of a temple to worship God was a pagan idea to start with, He allowed Israel to build Him one, but that was only His permissive will, just like He allowed Israel to have a king like the pagans had (Saul). God/Christ dwelling/tabernacling with man is in the temple of our vessel and in His church, by His Spirit, not in a grand building made with the hands of men. We are His temple.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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I believe that the 144,000 redeemed Jews from every tribe are a microcosm of redeemed and restored Israel. (Definitely NOT the fantasy of the Jehovah's Witnesses). That vision also confirms the meaning of "all Israel".

But for the naysayers and scoffers we have the words of Christ to His apostles -- that the twelve apostles of the Lamb would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Mt 19:28). So when the apostles came to Christ just before His ascension and asked as to when He would restore the kingdom to Israel, that was a reflection of what had been promised earlier. Of course, only the Lord knew that the Church Age would intervene before the redemption and restoration of Israel. Therefore they were given the Great Commission instead.
I believe these are 144000 missionaries sent to all the world as a witness to christ as one of the few things which will represent christ during that time (the two witnesses are another of these things which represent christ during this time)
 

Eternally Grateful

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If the Lord is really going to forgive the Jews for their rejection of Jesus, then why not every atheist? God will take vengeance on His enemies. Nahum 1:2

No one is saying God is going to forgive anyone for their rejection.

why do people keep insisting that people do?
 

Lizbeth

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That of course is not true, and is simply a doctrinal tradition from men, and not from God's Word. The throne of David has always been, still is, and always will be, an earthly throne. Just because you listen to men instead of God's written Word about it is why you don't understand that David's throne is still on earth today, waiting for Christ's coming to inherit it, as written.

The throne of David was removed from Jerusalem because of Judah's rebellion against God in the time of Jeremiah the prophet. And king Zedekiah's son heirs were all killed by the king of Babylon, but not Zedekiah's daughters, which Jeremiah was guardian over.
Jesus said to the Jews (who were expecting an earthly messiah/king) that His kingdom IS NOT OF THIS WORLD.
 

ScottA

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I will believe what i t is.. Abomination comes from a word which means an idol or unclean thing. Desolation means left desolate. And jesus said they woudl SEE IT STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE

That never happened.

We have an example when antiochus epiphanies did this very act by slaughtering a pig (an unclean thing according to the law) in the holy place. Rendering the temple inner holy of holy room unclean. Putting and end to sacrifice and Burt=nt offering.

Sacrifice and burnt offering continued until the temple was destroyed. Deteroying a temple is not an abomination of desolation. It is total destruction.

It has never happened..
No comparison.

So, your faith is in confused language rather than in Jesus' clear claim of fulfilled prophecy. Fine.

Do you really believe that slaughtering a pig...

I've said enough.
 

ScottA

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There is another generation to come. Refer to Deuteronomy 29:22. I think Jesus is contrasting "this Generation" referring to, as you say, "the people he then walked among." With a future generation as specified in Deuteronomy 29:22.

Yes?
No...the three wise men make a better fulfillment of Deut 29:22.

Besides, Jesus used "this generation" many times referring to His generation. Did you look them all up? If the "gap" theory of Daniel's prophecy were true, that would make Jesus psychotic. The theory doesn't hold water.
 

ScottA

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True, but as Paul said speaking of the Hebrews, God always reserves for himself a remnant. During the time when God decides to restore his holy name, some of the remnant will survive the day of the Lord and be present to see the coming of Jesus Christ.
Why do you look for another day, when He already came and declared that His time was then at hand?

I tell you--such is the lie of strong delusion.
As for the remnant, "It is finished." Their house is left desolate.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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No comparison.
Your right, I agree..

There is no comparison between what an abomination of desolation is

and what a destruction is. they are two different things

So, your faith is in confused language rather than in Jesus' clear claim of fulfilled prophecy. Fine.
No. My faith is on what the term means, What jesus understood the term to mean, and what any jew in the day of Christ would determine it to mean.

Do you really believe that slaughtering a pig...

Antiochus epiphanies did this very thing. And it was called an abomination of desolation. In fact it was prophesied by Daniel the prophet.

Daniel 11 speaking of the greece empire and an army coming from Cypress
Dan 11:
29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.

“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation.


This was historical fact. when Epiphanies sent his army and had a pig slaughtered in the holy place just as prophesied taking away sacrifice and burnt offering

You can read it for yourself. it is historical fact.

as for the word

abomination - hebrew siqqus - vileness - a state of detestable uncleanness, vile, and idol, or the pagan God which it represents, a repulsible things which causes covenanential uncleanness

desolation - mesomem - desolate. to be astonished or appalled

as for the greek

abomination - bdelygma - abomination, a detestable thing - an abomination which desolates a horrible thing which defiles.

desolation - tes eremoseos - devestation, desolation making desolate., or making so it is uninhabitable.

in both greek and hebrew it is seen as an idol. or detestable thing which makes something desolate


I've said enough.

Maybe you need to stop saying, and start researching??

show us where the pig was slaughtered,

Show us where the abomination of desolation spoken of by Jesus is standing in the holy place happened, and how they saw it

matt 24: 15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand),

the army did not make the holy place desolate by destroying it. The army did what Daniel fortold. the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and sanctuary.

the abomination of desolation would be made by the prince who is to come. long after the events of 70 AD (see daniel 9)
 

Eternally Grateful

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No...the three wise men make a better fulfillment of Deut 29:22.

Besides, Jesus used "this generation" many times referring to His generation. Did you look them all up? If the "gap" theory of Daniel's prophecy were true, that would make Jesus psychotic. The theory doesn't hold water.
if the gap theory is not true.

God is not perfect. . Because he said things would happen, and they did not. so he got it wrong.