Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls

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Revelation 6:2 KJV
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 16:2 KJV
2) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Are these the same? They describe different events, and there is nothing in the text to tell us they are the same. What reason would there be to think they are the same? Wouldn't that require we ignore certain facts? One being that the angels are not given their trumpets until the seals are openned. Another that they are speaking of disparate events. Angels are not given bowls until after the trumpets are sounded.

Revelation 6:3-4 KJV
3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 8:8-9 KJV
8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9) And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16:3 KJV
3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

There are certain similarities, are these sufficient to overcome the differences? For me, it depends on what your "standard of evidence" is.

In the 2nd trumpet, 1/3 of the sea is affected, 1/3 of the creatures die. In the 2nd bowl, all the sea is affected, and all the creatures die. Should we blend these as though they were the same? Or maintain the distinctions as written?

I believe we should hold to the exact wording, and not erase distinctions that are there in the text.

Revelation 6:5-6 KJV
5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 8:10-11 KJV
10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Revelation 16:4-7 KJV
4) And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Again, these show significant differences.

It seems to me this is the same as most other disagreements over Scripture, it just depends on how closely we hold to the text.

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

Well first get the chip off your shoulder. I did not see them. I did not read every post before I came in. I will accept responsibility for that. But no , The fact that the rider is the antichrist is well well established in dispensational eschatology.

First he is given a bow and allowed to go conquering.
Second he is given a stephanos crown, not a diadem. Jesus wears a diadem.
Third we know the antichrist has to conquer militarily to rise to power. He must conquer 3 of the ten "kings" who rule the world in the last days.

No I agree that there is similarities in the trumpets and vials, but they are similiarities not harmony.

T2 1/3 of the seas and life die from a rock from heaven.
V2 no rock from heaven and all the seas become blood and all life dies not just 1/3

T3 wormwood falls from heaven and 1/3 fresh waters poisoned
V3 all rivers and fresh waters become blood not just 1/3

T4 third part of sun, moon and stars darkened so day is reduced 1/3
v4 sun smitten and scorches men with great heat- not darkened.
T5 Angels releases locust like creatures from the abyss and hurt men for five months who do not have the seal of god (could be just the 144,000)
V5 Darkness covers teh antichrists kingdom and people chew their tongues for pain!

T6 4 angels released form Euphrates to kill 1/3 men with some type of army numbering 200,000,000
V6 1 not 4 angel dries the river Euphratres (not in trumpet 6) TO MAKE WAY FOR THE KINGS OF EAST. Demons released from Satan, AC and false prophet to prepare worlds armies for Armageddon.

T7 great rejoicing in heaven
V7 great earthquake, thundering's, islands and mountains fled and great city split in three.

So while the trumpets and vials affect similar things in similar order, the results and reasons are different. so to say they are somewhat similar is quite correct. To say they harmonize with each other is incoorect on a base level. There are too many differences to say they harmonize.

So you will provide NO proof text for the white rider being the anti-Christ when the text of Revelation does not mention the anti-Christ for several chapters. Appeal to others. 1st a bow and conquering... not any reference to AC. 2nd a crown is a crown (unless you prove otherwise, and where are you getting a reference to Jesus in that verse?) . 3rd it so so nice when someone tells me something I KNOW (where exactly in Revelation does the AC conquer 3 of 10 kings?)

T2+V2 Differences accounted for by different geographical settings but with shared seas and diluted effects (currents and the like).
T3+V3 Same as above.
T4+V5 You missed the switch. T4 has darkness and V5 has darkness
I didn't say anything about V4,T5, T6,or V6... Try to keep up.
T7 keep reading... verse 19 has "lightning, voices, thunder, EARTHQUAKE and great hail".

Lazy reading of my text and of the Bible. Scary to think what else is a result of such sloppy thinking. Misrepresenting my arguments is not wining you any points.

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 6:2 KJV
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Revelation 16:2 KJV
2) And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Are these the same? They describe different events, and there is nothing in the text to tell us they are the same. What reason would there be to think they are the same? Wouldn't that require we ignore certain facts? One being that the angels are not given their trumpets until the seals are openned. Another that they are speaking of disparate events. Angels are not given bowls until after the trumpets are sounded.

Revelation 6:3-4 KJV
3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Revelation 8:8-9 KJV
8) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
9) And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Revelation 16:3 KJV
3) And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

There are certain similarities, are these sufficient to overcome the differences? For me, it depends on what your "standard of evidence" is.

In the 2nd trumpet, 1/3 of the sea is affected, 1/3 of the creatures die. In the 2nd bowl, all the sea is affected, and all the creatures die. Should we blend these as though they were the same? Or maintain the distinctions as written?

I believe we should hold to the exact wording, and not erase distinctions that are there in the text.

Revelation 6:5-6 KJV
5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Revelation 8:10-11 KJV
10) And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11) And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Revelation 16:4-7 KJV
4) And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5) And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6) For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7) And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Again, these show significant differences.

It seems to me this is the same as most other disagreements over Scripture, it just depends on how closely we hold to the text.

Much love!

Different perspectives on a globe(geography) account for differences in the Trumps and Bowls that I mentioned.
Different peoples being the target of plagues account for differences in severity of plagues and different plagues occurring.
Differences don't indicate different instance. Eyewitness accounts always vary unless you have collusion.

 

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Earthquakes in the Revelation


6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

The assertion is made that these are the same earthquake, or some of them at the least. The reasoning given is that there can only be ONE earthquake greater than all others. However, only one of these passages gives that distinction.

There may be many or few "great earthquakes", but only one "greater than all", and only one is given to be "greater than all".

Much love!

 

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Eyewitness accounts always vary unless you have collusion.

I believe the Bible is inspired by God, that the prophets did not merely write their own ideas or interpretations, but wrote exactly what the Holy Spirit told them to write.

2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV
20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

Earthquakes in the Revelation


6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

The assertion is made that these are the same earthquake, or some of them at the least. The reasoning given is that there can only be ONE earthquake greater than all others. However, only one of these passages gives that distinction.

There may be many or few "great earthquakes", but only one "greater than all", and only one is given to be "greater than all".

Much love!

All explainable by distance from epicentre.

Two of the earthquakes affect all mountains and islands. (different degree of devastation due to distance from epicentre)

 

[David Boyer]

I believe the Bible is inspired by God, that the prophets did not merely write their own ideas or interpretations, but wrote exactly what the Holy Spirit told them to write.

2 Peter 1:20-21 KJV
20) Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21) For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Much love!

yes and when seen from different angles the same event is described differently.

 

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Two of the earthquakes affect all mountains and islands. (different degree of devastation due to distance from epicentre)

The sixth seal earthquake description speaks of islands and mountains changing locations, topos, the final greatest earthquake description speaks of the islands and mountains being gone.

You can argue that this difference is a matter of perspective form the viewer, however, I reply that in fact the descriptions are different, and either we pay attention to these differences as distinctives between the two, or we consider them unimportant and misleading.

I consider all the words written to be taken seriously. And I find that holding to the distinctives written gives us harmony with other passages.

Much love!

 

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All explainable by distance from epicentre.

No need to explain . . . only to pay attention to the words.

Revelation 6:12-14 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Revelation 16:17-21 KJV
17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

An earthquake, and later, an earthquake greater than all others, including the first one.

Every mountain and island moved, and every mountain and island gone. Different description of the earthquake, and different description of the results.

Question . . . If God were to describe two earthquakes occuring, so you could know they were different, what would He say? Perhaps a different description, with different results, at different times? I would think, yes.

Much love!

 

[marks]

yes and when seen from different angles the same event is described differently.

Who is "seeing from different angles"? Where do you find that in the Bible?

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

The sixth seal earthquake description speaks of islands and mountains changing locations, topos, the final greatest earthquake description speaks of the islands and mountains being gone.

You can argue that this difference is a matter of perspective form the viewer, however, I reply that in fact the descriptions are different, and either we pay attention to these differences as distinctives between the two, or we consider them unimportant and misleading.

I consider all the words written to be taken seriously. And I find that holding to the distinctives written gives us harmony with other passages.

Much love!

Distance from epicentre. All these island over here are gone... while the islands over here are unrecognisable (Tonga volcano).
Is your mind so closed as you can not see that this would also be a valid reading of the text?
Your perspective is reasonable to me... Why is mine so beyond the realm of reasonable to you?
Why are you so very sure when I can come up with another reading of the Scripture that also makes sense of the available text?

 

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Different perspectives on a globe(geography) account for differences in the Trumps and Bowls that I mentioned.

Based on what? Where do you find this in the Bible?

Where do you find teaching of varied geocentric interpretations?

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

Who is "seeing from different angles"? Where do you find that in the Bible?

Much love!

John. Angels move him from location to location all over Revelation. "And then I saw..." also indicates an interruption of vision that possibly coincides with a perspective shift.

 

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Distance from epicentre. All these island over here are gone...

No, it says of the latter quake, ALL are gone.

These are the distinctions I feel we should pay attention to.

Much love!

 

[marks]

John. Angels move him from location to location all over Revelation. "And then I saw..." also indicates an interruption of vision that possibly coincides with a perspective shift.

I know you've shown reluctance to quoting the Scriptures. For myself I think we should have that kind of familiarity with the Bible so that we can in fact show those passages which teach us our understandings.

Where in the Bible do you find John being moved about, and then writing phenomenally based on his changing location?

I know a couple of places, where John is shown Babylon, and later shown the New Jerusalem, can you add to that list?

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

Based on what? Where do you find this in the Bible?

Where do you find teaching of varied geocentric interpretations?

Much love!

Finally a question worth an answer.

Rev 6:8 ... "a forth part of the earth"... you probably think that means 25% of the human population.
Greek says the word for earth is arable land. North and South America make up 28% of the Earths surface. Arable land might bring the % closer to 25% but it is very close as it stands.

Also take a map and colour in all lands North, South and East of Israel. If you can get there via a land route it will fit that the only land West of Israel is North and South America.

You may not accept these as serious lines of enquiry, but they do stand as logical arguments for North and South America being the Seals plagues.

 

[marks]

Rev 6:8 ... "a forth part of the earth"... you probably think that means 25% of the human population.

Actually, no, that's not what I think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Also take a map and colour in all lands North, South and East of Israel. If you can get there via a land route it will fit that the only land West of Israel is North and South America.

You are figuring the 1/4 part of the earth must be contiguous? Again, based on what?

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

I know you've shown reluctance to quoting the Scriptures. For myself I think we should have that kind of familiarity with the Bible so that we can in fact show those passages which teach us our understandings.

Where in the Bible do you find John being moved about, and then writing phenomenally based on his changing location?

I know a couple of places, where John is shown Babylon, and later shown the New Jerusalem, can you add to that list?

Much love!

Rev 1:10, 2:1, 7:1, 7:9, 8:2, 10:1, 11:1,13:1, 14:1,15:1, 17:1, 18:1, 19:1, 20:1, 20:12, 21:1, 22:1 to name a few.

John is in heaven, on earth, by the sea, on the mountain and all over the place.

 

[David Boyer]

View attachment 25542

Actually, no, that's not what I think.

Much love!

so then what do you think?