tomwebster
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I am amazed at the number of people I have talked with lately that deny that Christ was both fully God and fully human.
Christ as the firstborn
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Hi Tom,
There are honest Trinitarians who are keenly aware of the logical issues found in their doctrine.
I have seen them write 10,000 upon 10,000’s of words in the hope of defending their error...and some have done so, however Bible based solutions are always elusive.
Consequently, some will admit to these issues without finding a solution, accepting they exist they fall upon their “Mystery” sword, while others who dare try to excuse the issues rationalistically fall into a sad heap.
So maybe your above statement "Christ was both fully God and fully human" is not as reconcilable as you first imagined?
Did Jesus have a human soul, to which the Logos (or Word) slowly bought him to divinity?
Did Jesus put away his deity (where?) and got this state of deity back after his death, resurrection and ascension?
If so who gave it back to him? And where are the Scriptures to support?
If he did put off his deity, which of his divine attributes did he put off? All of them initially, and then gradually received them over time? Can you define precisely those preexistent qualities which were laid to one side? Can you provide a section of Scripture dedicated to informing us how a truine God would pretend to be man?
Or did Jesus live two lives, as you suggest both human and deity, but how did he stay unconscious of his deity?
Exactly how did Jesus hide his deity and divine characteristics by temporarily restricting them?
But this poses a problem. If Jesus gave up these divine attributes it appears as though he actually lost none of these abilities?
This leads to the possibility Jesus and God, or both, were pretending.
Of course we could say Jesus gave up these divine attributes such as his omniscience and solely relied on the Holy Spirit to guide him, but again this undermines him being like his brothers in every respect.
Did Jesus place self-imposed restrictions whereby he was unable to gain access to these divine abilities? If so, scripture please?
Deut 6:4 & Mark 12:29 – Moses and Jesus are in agreement – One God…only!
Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God...but never "God the Son"
Insight
There are honest Trinitarians who are keenly aware of the logical issues found in their doctrine.
I have seen them write 10,000 upon 10,000’s of words in the hope of defending their error...and some have done so, however Bible based solutions are always elusive.
Consequently, some will admit to these issues without finding a solution, accepting they exist they fall upon their “Mystery” sword, while others who dare try to excuse the issues rationalistically fall into a sad heap.
So maybe your above statement "Christ was both fully God and fully human" is not as reconcilable as you first imagined?
Did Jesus have a human soul, to which the Logos (or Word) slowly bought him to divinity?
Did Jesus put away his deity (where?) and got this state of deity back after his death, resurrection and ascension?
If so who gave it back to him? And where are the Scriptures to support?
If he did put off his deity, which of his divine attributes did he put off? All of them initially, and then gradually received them over time? Can you define precisely those preexistent qualities which were laid to one side? Can you provide a section of Scripture dedicated to informing us how a truine God would pretend to be man?
Or did Jesus live two lives, as you suggest both human and deity, but how did he stay unconscious of his deity?
Exactly how did Jesus hide his deity and divine characteristics by temporarily restricting them?
But this poses a problem. If Jesus gave up these divine attributes it appears as though he actually lost none of these abilities?
This leads to the possibility Jesus and God, or both, were pretending.
Of course we could say Jesus gave up these divine attributes such as his omniscience and solely relied on the Holy Spirit to guide him, but again this undermines him being like his brothers in every respect.
Did Jesus place self-imposed restrictions whereby he was unable to gain access to these divine abilities? If so, scripture please?
Deut 6:4 & Mark 12:29 – Moses and Jesus are in agreement – One God…only!
Jesus is the Son of Man and the Son of God...but never "God the Son"
Insight
Well Insight,
That straw man wore this old rattle trap of a man out. :lol: I had to pass out and sleep for a while after that.
I find myself almost crying inside when i run into people who for some reason seem to lack that not just ability but joy of picking things up in their minds eye and turning those things to muse at their possible angles, all the while having the supreme goal of identify the most precious truth about it. (That dominated by the desire to find what God wants us to believe that we may honor Him through it.)
I like the way you acquainted this back to the serpent and Eve because I can recall as a child when long before I had any idea what a strawman's argument was, I would argue that way naturally, simply because I hated so to be wrong and a little voice in me seemed to tell me of the other person that there is no way they could be any smarter than me. God gave me brains, too!
The tendency to become offended by the other person's counsel toward us is born much of that same sort of a thing. But it seems to indicate to me that we do not have to deliberately choose to assume the role of the strawman. We do it quite naturally by nature of our fallen flesh. So I tend to not want to believe that most people are being that way deliberately. They are only doing what they know to do.
I permit myself to at times speak what sounds a bit gruff to some people. I used to be the world's greatest critic of anyone that did that. But I came to realize that my own greatest learning in life insofar (as helping to push me past things in my own personality that was acting to stifle my own learning) came by way of those who would not stand there and take it. They had the guts and the willingness to give me the answer that they knew full well I would not like. I properly ought even to not give too explicit examples of just how gruff they could. They believed strongly in the rule, "Cutting the other person down to size."
Today I am grateful for those people. I sure could and did hate them at that time, though.
I tend to be a bit torn when I see that I am being dragged into a strawman's argument. Torn between the voice in me that is saying, "Oh, no, why me, here we go again!" and my compassion that says maybe if I hang with them a little they will benefit as I did from those that cared enough to hang tough with me.
Most often the result is not something immediately seen. They like as myself have to carry that seed which was planted away and then God continues the whipping of us with it as He makes us grow.
That straw man wore this old rattle trap of a man out. :lol: I had to pass out and sleep for a while after that.
I find myself almost crying inside when i run into people who for some reason seem to lack that not just ability but joy of picking things up in their minds eye and turning those things to muse at their possible angles, all the while having the supreme goal of identify the most precious truth about it. (That dominated by the desire to find what God wants us to believe that we may honor Him through it.)
I like the way you acquainted this back to the serpent and Eve because I can recall as a child when long before I had any idea what a strawman's argument was, I would argue that way naturally, simply because I hated so to be wrong and a little voice in me seemed to tell me of the other person that there is no way they could be any smarter than me. God gave me brains, too!
The tendency to become offended by the other person's counsel toward us is born much of that same sort of a thing. But it seems to indicate to me that we do not have to deliberately choose to assume the role of the strawman. We do it quite naturally by nature of our fallen flesh. So I tend to not want to believe that most people are being that way deliberately. They are only doing what they know to do.
I permit myself to at times speak what sounds a bit gruff to some people. I used to be the world's greatest critic of anyone that did that. But I came to realize that my own greatest learning in life insofar (as helping to push me past things in my own personality that was acting to stifle my own learning) came by way of those who would not stand there and take it. They had the guts and the willingness to give me the answer that they knew full well I would not like. I properly ought even to not give too explicit examples of just how gruff they could. They believed strongly in the rule, "Cutting the other person down to size."
Today I am grateful for those people. I sure could and did hate them at that time, though.
I tend to be a bit torn when I see that I am being dragged into a strawman's argument. Torn between the voice in me that is saying, "Oh, no, why me, here we go again!" and my compassion that says maybe if I hang with them a little they will benefit as I did from those that cared enough to hang tough with me.
Most often the result is not something immediately seen. They like as myself have to carry that seed which was planted away and then God continues the whipping of us with it as He makes us grow.
Dear Vengle
Personally speaking, I am deeply encouraged by your example of love and humility in this forum. We have not agreed on everything, you well know. However, your honesty and integrity is truly in the Spirit of Christ. May the Father and Son bless you in your old age and give you length of days.
This is my prayer “so be it”.
You should also know, I prayed for Nomad today, that he/we might see a suffering and glorified Lord on whatever road he travels. Maybe three days of blindness will help him see a greater far reaching truth than mere gods.
I am all too aware of our need to be personally tried, like that of the Master, we must be perfected. Our own blindness sometimes must be impressed upon us so that we might learn by personal experience to deal more sympathetically with those who might similarly err (Heb 5:2).
Maybe once we reach humility we can receive the implanted Word in joy. Sadly, our inability to listen intently to every detail of God's Word, and believe it’s simplicity, even though it might seem to contain things we could not at the time fully appreciate, is a real warning to us.
If you are reading this Nomad know that you are loved (yes even by me) and also by those Stephen’s you “may” have watched being stoned.
May the Yahweh of Hosts and Yehoshua His exalted and glorified Son guide you into all truth.
Amen
Personally speaking, I am deeply encouraged by your example of love and humility in this forum. We have not agreed on everything, you well know. However, your honesty and integrity is truly in the Spirit of Christ. May the Father and Son bless you in your old age and give you length of days.
This is my prayer “so be it”.
You should also know, I prayed for Nomad today, that he/we might see a suffering and glorified Lord on whatever road he travels. Maybe three days of blindness will help him see a greater far reaching truth than mere gods.
I am all too aware of our need to be personally tried, like that of the Master, we must be perfected. Our own blindness sometimes must be impressed upon us so that we might learn by personal experience to deal more sympathetically with those who might similarly err (Heb 5:2).
Maybe once we reach humility we can receive the implanted Word in joy. Sadly, our inability to listen intently to every detail of God's Word, and believe it’s simplicity, even though it might seem to contain things we could not at the time fully appreciate, is a real warning to us.
If you are reading this Nomad know that you are loved (yes even by me) and also by those Stephen’s you “may” have watched being stoned.
May the Yahweh of Hosts and Yehoshua His exalted and glorified Son guide you into all truth.
Amen
Amen Insight,
Even our perception of Hebrews 5:2 can be used to understand this. For when it says, "He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness", we tend to see that in a way that our view is actually a mere facade of what it means. For we by our own intelligence might think that precludes that Jesus would be tough on us at all. Yet I have learned to know that even when Jesus spoke the way he often did to the Pharisees, he was being gentle with them, he could have just called for their complete destruction. But he allowed them to decide their own destruction at the point where his Father said enough is enough. And up to that time he issued the word which meant life to them if they would have appreciated it despite the way their own attitude forced him to have to communicate it. So he was always gentle by comparison to what their own way merited and was calling for. And that is how true love would do it.
We have a common view of Christ today as a passive, always docile person that simply is not so. And just because he was tough when he needed to be tough on those he loved it in no way proved him harsh. Sadly in this world of extremes we usually either see him as represented being too soft or hated as though harsh. We are in our inexperience awfully handicapped in our judgment of these things.
I am pondering and preparing to bring this point into a practical use to help us understand what we are dealing with in ourselves and others as we communicate concerning the truth of God's words, everyone assuming the other does not have it and yet needs it, so that we end up stepping all over each other.
I will begin it here by saying this, "I have learned that a man cannot know hell until he has visited it."
The spirit in me just pinged me to let it go there for now.
Even our perception of Hebrews 5:2 can be used to understand this. For when it says, "He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness", we tend to see that in a way that our view is actually a mere facade of what it means. For we by our own intelligence might think that precludes that Jesus would be tough on us at all. Yet I have learned to know that even when Jesus spoke the way he often did to the Pharisees, he was being gentle with them, he could have just called for their complete destruction. But he allowed them to decide their own destruction at the point where his Father said enough is enough. And up to that time he issued the word which meant life to them if they would have appreciated it despite the way their own attitude forced him to have to communicate it. So he was always gentle by comparison to what their own way merited and was calling for. And that is how true love would do it.
We have a common view of Christ today as a passive, always docile person that simply is not so. And just because he was tough when he needed to be tough on those he loved it in no way proved him harsh. Sadly in this world of extremes we usually either see him as represented being too soft or hated as though harsh. We are in our inexperience awfully handicapped in our judgment of these things.
I am pondering and preparing to bring this point into a practical use to help us understand what we are dealing with in ourselves and others as we communicate concerning the truth of God's words, everyone assuming the other does not have it and yet needs it, so that we end up stepping all over each other.
I will begin it here by saying this, "I have learned that a man cannot know hell until he has visited it."
The spirit in me just pinged me to let it go there for now.
The irony is that our taking of offense is often based in our expectations of what others should and should not do, how they should or should not speak to us, whether our view of it is reasonable or not.
That is hinted at in this proverb: Proverbs 13:12 "Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life."
In that context, the word "hope" means "what we expect to be or to come about". And when it does not happen that way it sets our heart into a frustrated frenzy. We then are likely to seeing anything come out of our heart from anger that engages to lash, to sadness that causes us to just simply quit trying.
A Cambridge University college professor by the name of William Tyndale, for translating the Bible into English (this was before the KJV was translated), the Catholic government in England imposed upon him a charge of heresy and when he fled to another country in effort to save his own life, they tracked him down to mercilessly carry out the sentence they had imposed upon him, death by strangulation with human hands.
Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the son he saith: God thy seat shall be <¦thy seat endureth¦> for ever, and ever. The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.” (William Tyndale’s Translation)
I could be wrong that he actually became a professor at Cambridge where he had gone to study more Greek under Erasmus, but I do seem to remember something to that effect.
It may be I remember him being said to have been given an honorary status as professor. I need to look those old studies back up. Until then you might find the following interesting:
http://www.spartacus.../TUDtyndale.htm
http://en.wikipedia....William_Tyndale
Boy the old memory just ain't what it used to be. :lol:
Hebrews 1:8 “But unto the son he saith: God thy seat shall be <¦thy seat endureth¦> for ever, and ever. The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.” (William Tyndale’s Translation)
I could be wrong that he actually became a professor at Cambridge where he had gone to study more Greek under Erasmus, but I do seem to remember something to that effect.
It may be I remember him being said to have been given an honorary status as professor. I need to look those old studies back up. Until then you might find the following interesting:
http://www.spartacus.../TUDtyndale.htm
http://en.wikipedia....William_Tyndale
Boy the old memory just ain't what it used to be. :lol:
To All,
One should consider that not all things are Scriptural, just because two agree upon something. And such is the case in the above "love-fest", where both agree that Jesus is not GOD, but simply a created being.
http://www.christian...ll/page__st__30
.
As such, I would caution others regarding false doctrines, for there certainly is no shortage of leaven in these lumps.
BibleScribe
One should consider that not all things are Scriptural, just because two agree upon something. And such is the case in the above "love-fest", where both agree that Jesus is not GOD, but simply a created being.
http://www.christian...ll/page__st__30
.
As such, I would caution others regarding false doctrines, for there certainly is no shortage of leaven in these lumps.
BibleScribe
Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. He has joined Himself to His own creation in Christ. He has perfected forever the fusion of God and man into a NEW creation of which the man Jesus is the first-born. Jesus Christ is FULLY God and FULLY man! As such He is the Mediator between God and men, bringing many sons to God who will be baptized into His death AND therefore into the likeness of His resurrection in NEWNESS of life.
The problem is that Christians are deciding Jesus' status as fully God and fully human, by their own human standards.
They decide that if it doesn't make perfect sense to them then it couldn't be true.
It is like the non-Christians saying that the pain and suffering in the world proves that there is no God because it makes no sense that He would allow it...
They decide that if it doesn't make perfect sense to them then it couldn't be true.
It is like the non-Christians saying that the pain and suffering in the world proves that there is no God because it makes no sense that He would allow it...
Though this was said in extreme bias, it does contain truth. That truth is, "One should consider that not all things are Scriptural, just because two agree upon something."
Therefore the fact that many agree on the Trinity does not make it true.
But this person's counsel continues with correct advise if one could free themselves of bias to apply it. And I strongly encourage all to empty themselves of preformed opinions either direction, and thus become free in their minds and hearts to even know if they are reading into the scriptures or allowing the scriptures to speak.
A man (or woman) sees what they seek to see. They find what their mind desires as it will help invent its illusion.
Good advice Biblescribe if you only are willing to free it from bias.
That is correct also and well explains why so many are unable to just let the scriptures speak in their simplicity but instead put together elaborate details from so-called higher education conducted of men and trust in it more than in the simplicity of the Bible. It is that very thing which caused men to mis-translate some verses of scripture. Thankfully they have not corrupted many of them so that the truth is yet easily seen if we look at the whole Bible instead of resting our belief upon only one or even a few passages.
The answers are out there easy to find for the few verses they have corrupted. And neither are those answers complex.
Yet you know that our Father would not speak above the youngest of His children to understand if you trust in His love.
Though Jesus spoke in parables that the Pharisees and all whose hearts were hard could not understand, what he spoke was not above their ability to understand but for their own lack of humility preventing them. The parables actually made things even simpler for those who had meek hearts. They were able to pick up on many points at one time through parables so the parables worked to their advantage.
Good points gentleman. Thank you.
[
BibleScribe said:
The advice which you refer to speaks directly against the false doctrine which you espouse. As such, the only consideration is whether your smooth words are sufficient for others who may fall prey to your snare.
Matt. 15:13-14
[sup]13[/sup] But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. [sup]14[/sup] Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”
BibleScribe
:lol: Thank you for your love.
I guess maybe I am not too smart. The logos was in the beginning with God but God has no beginning or end.
It says that the logos was in the beginning with God,; it does not say that the logos was before the beginning with God.
And as God has no beginning or end, that seems significant. How can one be in a beginning before that beginning has begun?
Why would the logos be spoken of only in that beginning and not before that beginning if John is telling us that Jesus is God?
If it were John's intent to tell us Jesus is God how simple it would have been for him to say, "The logos was before the beginning with God."
Who is reading more into that than what is there?
I mean those of you who truly do have knowledge of the Greek know that the language was very precise in that regard.
I guess maybe I am not too smart. The logos was in the beginning with God but God has no beginning or end.
It says that the logos was in the beginning with God,; it does not say that the logos was before the beginning with God.
And as God has no beginning or end, that seems significant. How can one be in a beginning before that beginning has begun?
Why would the logos be spoken of only in that beginning and not before that beginning if John is telling us that Jesus is God?
If it were John's intent to tell us Jesus is God how simple it would have been for him to say, "The logos was before the beginning with God."
Who is reading more into that than what is there?
I mean those of you who truly do have knowledge of the Greek know that the language was very precise in that regard.
For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles; if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which, when you read, you Foreigner may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was NOT made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: Eph 3:1,2,3,4,5
When Trinitarians admit they believe in a “mystery” they unknowingly declare to all they know not the truth Gospel message as taught by the Apostle Paul.
They unwittingly introduce a vial over the Gospel which clouds its simplicity and presents unanswerable questions.
The Trinity actually breaks Scripture.
Insight
To All,
Please allow an enhanced text of what I provided in the Topic, "Who would make that claim, except as discerned?":
http://www.christian...t-as-discerned/
I just performed a quick search I found an article in the "Blue Letter Bible - Tutorials, and FAQ's", authored by a Don Stewart which might be of interest, as is excerpted as follows:
http://www.bluelette...wart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
An ancient heresy regarding the Trinity known as Arianism caused much discussion about the nature of God in the fourth century. Arius, a bishop from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Jesus was the first creation of God and not God Himself. According to Arius Jesus was the first and highest of all the created beings. Arius said, "There was a time when the Son was not." Jesus was then given powers to create. ...
They Are Equal In Nature
The Bible teaches that Jesus is equal in nature to God the Father. Jesus is the Creator of everything – not everything but Himself. The Bible says.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)
Paul wrote the to the Colossians.
For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Colossians 1:16).
There is no hint in Scripture that Jesus was a created being. He not only existed before all things He is also preeminent over all things.
...
(Please follow the link for the full text.)
I also found that apparently the Jehovah's Witnesses profess that doctrine.
Thus one could anticipate why some in this Forum agree as to their theology.
BibleScribe
Please allow an enhanced text of what I provided in the Topic, "Who would make that claim, except as discerned?":
http://www.christian...t-as-discerned/
I just performed a quick search I found an article in the "Blue Letter Bible - Tutorials, and FAQ's", authored by a Don Stewart which might be of interest, as is excerpted as follows:
http://www.bluelette...wart.cfm?id=339
Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)
An ancient heresy regarding the Trinity known as Arianism caused much discussion about the nature of God in the fourth century. Arius, a bishop from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Jesus was the first creation of God and not God Himself. According to Arius Jesus was the first and highest of all the created beings. Arius said, "There was a time when the Son was not." Jesus was then given powers to create. ...
They Are Equal In Nature
The Bible teaches that Jesus is equal in nature to God the Father. Jesus is the Creator of everything – not everything but Himself. The Bible says.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)
Paul wrote the to the Colossians.
For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Colossians 1:16).
There is no hint in Scripture that Jesus was a created being. He not only existed before all things He is also preeminent over all things.
...
(Please follow the link for the full text.)
I also found that apparently the Jehovah's Witnesses profess that doctrine.
Thus one could anticipate why some in this Forum agree as to their theology.
BibleScribe
Not even a hint?
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
BibleScribe, where you born of a woman or something else?
Job 25:4NET Job 15:14NET
Is God unclean?
Insight
Your doctrine is of men. But it's GOD who you will answer to. Explain yourself to HIM.
BibleScribe
BibleScribe
tomwebster
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Is that God or Jesus - or both?
From your reply you mean to say Gal 4:4 is given by human reasoning?
Insight
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