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Christ as the firstborn

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Prentis, Nov 17, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Very clear view Insight.

    There is no doubt in my mind that the spirit has revealed this to you.
     
  2. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    All that you say, Vengle, can just as well be applied to you, depending on one would see you.
    That's a silly play on words to prop oneself up. Once again, we see someone claiming themselves right on the sole basis of the fact they believe they are right. What's that called? Measuring yourself by yourself.

    Philippians 1:17
    but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel.

    1 Peter 3:15
    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

    Jesus is God AND the firstborn of a new creation.

    [sup]1[/sup] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [sup]2[/sup] He was in the beginning with God.
     
  3. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Correct the Gospel is true

    Correct we must give a correct answer for the reason of the Hope

    Insight
     
  4. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Yes, I do apply that first to myself. But of course you have know way to know that.

    Be careful not to take offense at words for even if I should tell you that you are ignorant of something it only means the same as it does for myself, that there are things you do not know. (James 1:19-20; Proverbs 18:19)

    None of this explains how God to whom throughout the scriptures it says all things already belong needs in any way to inherit anything?

    How does one who already owns everything inherit anything from anyone?
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    We ought to not imagine that God needs anything from us. He owns it all and the Son gets all from the Father which is also why the Son can inherit whereas the Father cannot. One cannot inherit what he already has.

    (Matthew 11:27; Luke 10:22; John 3:35; John 13:3)

    Ponder these following verses slowly and deliberately. Resist jumping quickly to ascribing them to your long held beliefs:

    (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 3: 18-23; 1 Corinthians 2: 14-16)

    What happens is really rather innocent. We sometimes have difficulty knowing whether a particular passage speaks of the Christ or if it is speaking of the Father. And Christ being the perfect image of the Father makes that quite easy to confuse. I see that as the soil out of which the Trinity doctrine was born. In and of itself it was an innocent thing. Most error does usually begin innocently and then the devil grabs hold on it for his purpose.
     
  6. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    It is not often, especially in these last evil days, that you find and meet someone who has invested as much meditative thought into His Word (as you); One who can express their depth of meaning with such preciseness. We know it is not your doing, although at some time “you decided to set your mind on things above”. Unlike the schooled theologians your words are seasoned with salt and not the philosophies of men.

    Your above comments highlight two beautiful thoughts that will rest with me this evening.
    1. For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills. I know all the birds of the hills, and all that moves in the field is mine. "If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are mine. (Psalms 50:10,11,12,23) Salvation is His also! Psa 50:23
    1. “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation”

    Jesus was the first to inherit salvation (being ministered too by the angels. For us, as it was for Jesus, Yahweh sent the angles to bring help to those who will inherit salvation (Rom 8:17). Many in this forum do not understand God's grace, as administered through his servants (angels) to serve us in and toward this end - Psa 91:11, as evident in the ministry of angels to Jesus (See Mat 4:11; cp Mat 26:53), they are the medium to which the comforter is sent for encouragement (Psa 34:7).

    To this end will the Saints inherit salvation and the earth and its fullness…like their captain Heb 2:10KJV.

    Insight
     
  7. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Your objection is nothing but a philosophical presupposition that finds no support in Scripture. Ever hear of the Fall? Christ inherits all that he redeemed through the cross. He inherits all that he set free from bondage and futility. Notice in verse 20, below, who it was that willingly subjected creation to this fate in order to redeem it. It was God himself. It's that simple.

    Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
    Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
    Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
    Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
    Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
    Rom 8:21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
    Rom 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I suppose i can understand why it seems like supposition to you. A puzzle is difficult to put together when one is missing pieces to it.

    For me it now seems a simple picture. Even what you have just spoken proves that Christ cannot be God or what you say could not have been.

    Do you not get that because all things (including ourselves) already belonged to God He had full right to destroy all then and there? He also because He owns it all, and already did own it all, and always has and always will own it all, because of that He has full and complete right to command what is right or wrong for us to obey, irrespective of our opinion of what He tells us to do. That part you do know. But you fail to see that the basis of our mercy is really that he was able to have good pleasure in His Son. And by allowing us to be transplanted from Adam to His Son as the last Adam, that forms the basis to allow us to live without violating His perfect justice. Do you not know that is why we have not justified ourselves but Christ justified us? These things God used a person of perfect loyalty to Him to do.

    I appreciate that your struggle to see this is not entirely your own fault, but you are leaving out and failing to consider much of the picture. And without realizing it you dismiss an important part of the very need of our being born again.

    Before you try to divert attention away from what i just said by pointing out that I violated your tradition by not citing exact scriptures, show me what Bible writer did cite the scriptures they referenced in the NT? I speak after their example. I give credit to you as they did their listeners to be familiar enough with your Bible that these things I say should spur your mind to recall what you have read and appeal to your desire to learn by turning into the word and seeing these things for yourself. For if you are unwilling to do that I am simply blowing wind at you as far as you are concerned anyway.

    The choice is entirely yours, even as to how you wish to view me and how you view what I say. Many Trinitarians are already disposed to receive nothing I say because they think me a heretic. That is your personal choice to make.
     
  9. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Do you not get that Scripture tells us very plainly that God willingly subjected all creation to futility and corruption and then redeemed it. By your own reasoning then, God cannot be God. He owned it all. He let it all fall. Then he redeemed it all. Imagine that, Vengle! You can ignore Scripture in favor of your philosophical presuppositions if you like, but I think you're in a real quandary.
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    If that were so I would not believe it. Surely you must know I deeply consider such things as that.

    No, the problem is the desire in you for what I am saying to not be true is causing you to not be able to see what I am saying or even to be able to relate it to the scripture due to the way you have interpreted scripture.

    Stop judging and start pondering.

    God subjected creation to futility on the basis of hope. He gave the hope at the same time he subjected the creation to futility. That hope is His Son, the seed of promise to whom God would give all that He had previously given the first Adam.

    Here was the hope and when it was given: Revelation 13:8b "... the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

    The verse you are referencing is this one: Romans 8:20 "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,"
     
  11. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    If I am correct in suggesting you believe God (single persona) in wisdom allowed creation to be subject to vanity so that God (single persona) could redeem it for an inheritance; I don’t mean to state the obvious but you are missing a persona in your Christology.

    Now I appreciate how your schooling has trained you to confuse the personas of Father and Son, so I also appreciate unravelling all those years of theological training will not be achieved in a single post.

    It is clear to all here your language carries all the hallmarks of a reformist Trinitarian convert. Hopefully you can shelve your Calvinistic wisdom and actually allow the Scriptures to lead you into truth.

    We shall see.

    Let us revisit the Law of the Firstborn
    1. The firstborn son (pointing forward to Christ) was Consecrated to God (Exod 13:2; 22:29), and held the position of priest in the family (Num 3:12,13; 8:14-18). Of which Yahweh is head of the entire Israel family – Jesus being “a” corner stone.
    2. He received a double portion of the inheritance of his father (Deut 21:15-17; Ezek 47:13).
    3. He was held next in honour to his parents (Gen 49:3).
    4. He succeeded in the control of the family, or kingdom, on the death of his father (2 Chr 21:3).
    5. He could forfeit his position through misconduct or incompetency (1 Chr.5:1; 26:10; Gen. 25:31; 48:5,13,14).
    6. A younger son could assume the position (1 Sam 16:11,12).
    7. Israel was a national firstborn (Exod. 4:21-23) elevated above other nations who existed before them.
    8. Christ as the Firstborn (Col. 1:15; Rev. 1:5).
    9. Adam was a son of God (Lk. 3:38), but he forfeited his right through his misconduct.
    Consider the following quotations in line with the above points:

    1. Lk. 1:32,33; 2:22-23; Heb. 4:15.
    2. Rom. 8:17-29; Heb 1:3-4; Phil. 2:9-11.
    3, 4. Rev. 3:21; Jer. 3:19.
    5. 1 Cor. 15:45.
    6. Psa. 89:24-27.
    7. Hos. 11:1; Isa. 49:3.

    Jesus being born in the line of Abraham and David ‘Which was made of the seed of David after the flesh" (see also Matt 1:1) Expresses Jesus right to a regal inheritance as recipient and fulfiller of the Davidic Covenant. The TCNT renders it: "who, as to his human nature, was descended from David." Christ is the "root and offspring of David" (Rev 22:16), and confirmed the ancient promise of 2 Sam. 7. An essential element in this verse is Christ's royal descent in relation to the throne of Israel.

    Jesus alone as inheritor has the "right" to David's throne, however who is the testator? Who wrote the testimony of Jesus Christ and those things he should inherit upon obedience?

    Now Nomad would say Jesus Himself (implying a triune God)...the Scripture clearly states that it pleased His Father to give him these things, due to his obedience which lead to death. We know Jesus was Consecrated and Justified by the Spirit of Yahweh, which begs the question, why did Jesus need to be “made” righteous or need perfecting in the Spirit? (1 Tim 3:16) If he was in fact God Himself?

    Is God not perfect? Matt 5:48

    The inheritance was received by Jesus Christ on the basis of overcoming sins flesh; by conquering death which had dominion in his nature and for this reason he now has secured eternal redemption not only for himself but those in him.

    Now Nomad, what appears to be missing from your comments is how we gain access to Jesus’ inheritance which he is yet to receive in full.

    Paul emphasises that the way to spiritual success is only through association with Christ Jesus; in fact, there can be no righteous way of life unless the individual is fully "in" Christ. Now a mixture of God and Christ but being placed into Jesus Christ (single persona).

    Jesus having accomplished his own salvation, he now acts as the firstborn of a spiritual creation (Col. 1:15), by which he leads those who are his "brethren" and "children" (Heb 2:11,12,13) to salvation with him.

    Insight
     
  12. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Well, your "suggestion" would be incorrect. Where have I ever said that God is a "single persona?" I'm a Trinitarian Insight, not a unitarian.
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    No Nomad, if you read it correctly "I" am implying a Single God () are for truth! As it appears in your comment you neglected to mention the Master. I understand you see God as three, I like to distinguish the difference...something Trinitarians are NOT all that proficient at doing for their blindness.

    While schooled men enjoy their many theological terminologies; I am very happy to say I believe in the One true God, whose name is Yahweh and His beloved Son in whom he was well pleased.

    Insight
     
  14. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I would like to share with you an incident that speaks deeply to this topic.

    I perceive there to be a lot of disciples in this forum who at times, echo the thoughts and feelings of Judas in that room with Mary and her ointment.

    All of us in the room could see the ointment on the head and feet of the Lord; we see Mary bowing herself down before him and wiping his feet; we smell the beautiful odour of the ointment, but we do not understand the action.

    What did it signify?

    Well, Jesus acknowledged that she performed for him "a beautiful thing" (Mat 26:10). She appears as the most thoughtful of us all, and by this action, it seems that she wanted to proclaim her conviction that he was king in spite of the opposition of the leaders of the nation. You see this woman understood the true Jesus Christ unpolluted by 2000 years of Greek & Roman mythology, she had carefully pondered the issues involved, and with the miracle of Lazarus clearly etched in her mind, she seemed to grasp what eluded all the others — the impending death of the Lord, perhaps seeing in him as the "firstborn from the dead," the fulfilment of what had been demonstrated in her brother Lazarus.

    She understood the imposing danger to his life, and we know he spoke of his death often. Did she “break the jar" containing the ointment (Mark 14:3), because she knew his end? She proceeded to anoint his head as a token of his kingly status, which she knew would one day be his, in spite of his death. She anointed his feet in humility and submitted to him as she bowed before him (Luke 10:39; John 13:5), doing this to refresh her King and encourage him along a Straightened path he had to tread. By kneeling down to wipe his feet with her hair, she indicated her willingness to follow him wherever he might lead her.

    We see both head and feet were anointed, symbolic of whole body (John 13:9,10), as in the case of the anointing of the high priest (See Psa 133). It was "a beautiful thing" because it showed her complete and total belief in him as her Messiah and King.

    She also understood the baptism which he had yet to suffer and the agony of fighting sin’s flesh every day. She could see in him the qualifications of a regal High Priest. Conveying a very deep intimate knowledge of Jesus weakness and with each action she knew where she had failed in the flesh, thus far, he had triumphed.

    Jesus can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness. (Hebrews 5:2)

    Her action sets a pattern for the true congregation of God. Can the lofty theologian with all his many articles of human doctrines s submit to Christ, as Mary did when she bowed before him? Let them sacrifice all in an extravagant act of homage to him as she had done; let them serve him in voluntary humility as she did; let their thoughtfulness find expression in a pleasing adoration, such as delighted him on that occasion, and the "whole house," the entire body, will be filled with the odour of the ointment!

    Sadly the only odour we small is the stench of apostolic error given by men of renown; trained in the traditions of men by their many schools of higher knowledge.

    None can grasp her example, no, not even I.

    Insight
     
  15. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [sup]2[/sup] He was in the beginning with God."

    Prentis posted this earlier as part of why he believes Jesus to be God. I like to keep things simple so i will cut to the chase. Jesus said, John 8:28b "... I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." He could, why? because he was in the beginning with God. He has been a long time with his father and so he knows his Father intimately.

    So then, If Jesus only speaks what his Father has taught him, then even if Jesus were not God, the Word would yet be God. How could it not be? So that does not require Jesus to be God even if it is correctly translated to say what it does in the KJV and most Bibles. I see it as needless to debate the translation as the way it is written, in the light of what Jesus has told us, the word he spoke was indeed God.

    And there is a reason why. I am rebelling against the common approach here because I have known all those approaches but God revealed something better to me. The reason that the Word is God that Jesus speaks is this: Matthew 11:27b "... no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    I often refer to Jesus as God revealed or as the revelation of God in the flesh for that very reason. That is what doubting Thomas recognized.

    Jesus faithfully speaks the Word of God to reveal the Father and that is what John 1:1 is telling us. And it tells us why he can, because he was with the Father clean back in the beginning. And if you want to know about that it would help if you accurately translated Proverbs 8: 22.

    At Proverbs 8: 22 that word "possessed" is qanah -- a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own:

    The part I highlighted is Trinitarian influence because it omits the action of procurement (it is the only part that does), and you cannot properly do that with the word "qanah".

    Sure there are biased Trinitarian scholars that will debate that but that is because they and their school were the problem causing the mis-translation to begin with. If you insist on trusting them you may as well trust the bandit who you saw come out of the bank with a gun, a mask, and a bag of money in his hand when he says he did not rob the bank. Hey, that is your choice. As for me, I have studied for myself and I know you cannot translate that word leaving out the procurement factor. And that means Jesus was not, before he was.

    John 14:10 "Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

    Yes in deed, The Father speaks through Jesus.

    Oh hey, :) that makes Jesus the mediator between God and man. How much you want to bet the scriptures even say that somewhere?

    You go ahead and be silly and make him the mediator between man and himself if you must. :lol:

    1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"
     
  16. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Oh, Vengle, John 1:1 is telling us a bit more than that. It tells us that not only was the Word with God, it tells us that the Word was God. This is very multi-personal, (even Trinitarian) language. Would you like for me to explain to you and Insight the Greek behind the very clear text of John 1:1? It's very simple, really. Even a first year Greek student could explain it. That reminds me. My offer to formally debate the doctrine of the Trinity to any who are willing is still valid. What do you say guys? Are you game? I can set it all up. Just say the word.
     
  17. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You obviously did not pay attention to what I wrote.

    You can show me anything you want but I have studied the Biblical languages at some length. So it is unlikely you can show me anything other than what I was probably aware of long before you.

    I do not care to debate whether the word is correctly translated divine when it says "the Word was God" as that translation is fine by me. The role Jesus filled in revealing his Father was to speak his Father's Word perfectly, and the Word was God. His Father's Word was his bread of life, it was his food as he himself also said. And you are what you eat, just as we take on Christ by eating the bread that is Christ's body. And that bread is the Word he speaks.

    I am consistent in applying the principles given by Jesus. The trinity violates those principles.

    But even if an angel from heaven would explain this all to you, you would argue with him.
     
  18. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    O.k. Vengle, so you're out. Maybe Insight has finally found enough time to accept my challenge. I'll wait.

    You know what Vengle? Not so fast. Since you've made such a claim, then why don't you go ahead and explain how the Greek text supports your anti-trinitarian position. I'm all ears. Then it's my turn.
     
  19. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Well if your plan was to do an 180 degree shift and claim that Maffat's translation that "the Word was divine" means Jesus is God then you may as well forget that to. Men are able to bear the image of God too and that is all it means to be divine.

    2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
     
  20. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    I have no such plan, but thanks for your concern.
     
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