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Christ as the firstborn

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Prentis, Nov 17, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    It is too easy to ignore this part just by declaring, "Oh but John did say, "The logos was God."

    And at the very least it speaks as if the logos was only IN the beginning, which we know God has no beginning.

    It is too difficult for you to understand only if your humility refuses to let go of preconceived thinking, but I will tell you point blank what John has very plainly in mind here:

    (The Bible in Basic English) Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past."

    :lol: Go ahead now with the usual gnashing of teeth rather than even caring to consider that you might be wrong. :lol:
     
  2. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Nice quote Vengle.

    Prov 3:19,20: "By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; by his knowledge the deeps were divided, and the clouds let drop the dew."

    Did you notice the context of Proverbs 8 is creation?

    The RSV translators agreed on "The LORD CREATED ME at the beginning of his work"; And NIV "The LORD BROUGHT ME FORTH as the first of his works."

    'Wisdom' is seen correclty as the first of Yahweh's "creations"!

    Prov 8:22 - See word "reshith" beginning of His ways, or works"; compare Prov 1:7; 3:9; 4:7.

    The word can mean either "first" in point of time, or "most important" overall.

    We are back on OP hooray!

    Here it signifies "firstborn" and the paradox here is the "firstborn" in Scriptural terms was not necessarily the one "born FIRST", but could (and often did) mean a younger one elevated to a leading role.

    Insight
     
  3. BibleScribe

    BibleScribe Member

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    To All,

    I have no problem with people bringing blood upon their own heads. However, I would warn others of that circumstance. Thus my Post #76:



    Per the "Blue Letter Bible - Tutorials, and FAQ's", authored by a Don Stewart


    Is Jesus Lesser in Nature than God the Father? (Arianism)

    An ancient heresy regarding the Trinity known as Arianism caused much discussion about the nature of God in the fourth century. Arius, a bishop from Alexandria, Egypt, taught that Jesus was the first creation of God and not God Himself. According to Arius Jesus was the first and highest of all the created beings. Arius said, "There was a time when the Son was not." Jesus was then given powers to create. ...

    They Are Equal In Nature

    The Bible teaches that Jesus is equal in nature to God the Father. Jesus is the Creator of everything – not everything but Himself. The Bible says.

    Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)

    Paul wrote the to the Colossians.

    For by him [Jesus] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him (Colossians 1:16).

    There is no hint in Scripture that Jesus was a created being. He not only existed before all things He is also preeminent over all things.
    ...




    I also found that apparently the Jehovah's Witnesses profess that doctrine.





    BibleScribe
     
  4. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Best you heed your own warning. You did not answer Gal 4:4 ???
     
  5. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word. . .

    I thought you were "deep" into Greek Vengle? How could you get this so wrong? First, "in the beginning" refers to creation. Look at verse 3. You have to pay attention to context. Second, do see the word "was" in John 1:1? That is the imperfect tense form of our little friend "eimi." The imperfect tense expresses continuous action in the past. As far back as you wish to push "the beginning," the Word was already existing. That is what is clearly conveyed by the imperfect tense. The Word does not come into existence at the beginning, The Word is already existing when the beginning takes place. This is a hard fact of the Greek text that's not open to debate. Sorry. Seeing that you fancy yourself deep into Greek you should have no problem with what I've said. You hould have no problem looking it up. There's nothing here but what first year Greek students learn very early in their studies.
     
  6. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That is fascinating and meaty.

    I see in this the element of the Son being first perfected before anything else was created.

    I am currently musing that John had Jesus in mind when he spoke of our dwelling in love at 1 John 4:15-18

    15"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    17 ¶Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love"

    John being a Jew and a Hebrew I believe he liked a bit of play with words as is common to the Hebrew writers. Thus I believe he is playing upon the idea of dwelling in love as dwelling in God as does Jesus. Thus, "as he (Jesus) is, so are we in this world."

    I have not finalized that conclusion in myself but am keeping an open mind to it at this point.

    But i believe that is what we see also at John 1:1-2 with the idea of Jesus being first perfected before God created things through his Son.

    The value of this is like the parables Jesus spoke in. Once we understand this word play we are enabled to grasp a much fuller picture with a fraction of the effort. But we must have a meek and open heart to do so.

    This word play is why many Jews today will tell you that we Gentiles and our educated scholars do not stand a chance at really knowing what was said. But long ago I set my mind to understanding why and decided that they are partly correct but only as to those who do not learn of this.

    Hey, You go Nomad :lol:

    I love to witness your astounding ability to dazzle yourself. :lol: Even if it does limp a bit in genuine logic or truth.
     
  7. BibleScribe

    BibleScribe Member

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    Hi Nomad,

    LOL, -- I don't think the issue is education, -- it's indoctrination. So where you and I would agree as to a tangible, these only argue toward a doctrinal objective.


    But for what you shared, I now feel a little more enlightened!

    BibleScribe
     
  8. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Heb 1:6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

    Now I'm going to ask some questions. Scripture clearly tells us that only God is to be worshiped. If Jesus is not God, how is it that angels are told to worship him? If Jesus is not God, we have a glaring contradiction between Hebrews 1:6 and other passages of Scripture.

    Exo 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:
    Exo 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

    Luk 4:7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours."
    Luk 4:8 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'"

    Rev 19:10 Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
    Rev 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
     
  9. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Welcome Nomad!

    Are you asking this in the context of Jesus being made so much BETTER THAN THE ANGELS, as he hath by inheritance - obtained a more excellent name than they?

    If so?

    CHRIST WAS EXALTED FROM HUMAN NATURE TO A SUPERIOR POSITION TO THE ANGELS
    • Superior in name Heb 1:4,5,6
    • Superior in his authority Heb 1:7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14
    • Superior in the spoken word Heb 2:1,2,3,4
    • Superior his responsibilities Heb 2:5,6,7,8
    • Superior in his sacrifice Heb 2:9,10,11,12,13,14,,15,16,17,18
    Of course none of these attributes can ever be compared to Yahweh Himself, who finds no comparison.

    Hence the Master sits at His right side and not in the THRONE.

    Insight
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    It is easy to be stumped by that one unless you realize that the same word was used also about rendering obeisance to human kings in the Greek language. It is only we that do not understand in that word in the Greek was determined by whom it was applied to.

    Its basic meaning is obeisance, which actually means "to render high honor to". And of course that is true for both God and Jesus. It is like our loving both God and Jesus.

    Think, instead of allowing your emotion derived of preferred belief to interfere. Just think for a second.

    If a person dishonors your son do they honor you? Even if they claim to honor you but yet do not honor your cherished son the reality is that they dishonor you both. The Greek word has that kind of conveyance.

    And it falls right in line with what Jesus told us: John 5:23 "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

    This applies also to angels as we are told there at Hebrews 1:6

    I hope that clears up your confusion. :)
     
  11. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Thanks. I'm glad it helped. I agree that the real problem here is indoctrination. I would also add philosophical hang-ups and allowing "reason" to trump Scripture.
     
  12. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle

    How is it your mind went to the same verse?

    When we worship the Father manifested in the Son (John 5:23). Are we not acknowledging that all that the Son is stems from the Father (John 14:28)?

    It appears you understand the doctrine of God Manifestation.

    Very few Trinitarians believers fully comprehend the beauty of God manifestation.

    Insight
     
  13. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Sorry. Neither of you answered my question. You both simply made bad excuses why Scripture doesn't mean what it says. As for the word "worship" Vengle, your excuse just doesn't cut it. Verse 8 should clear up your confusion. Worship rightly belongs to Christ because he is God.

    Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
     
  14. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Ah Hebrews 1:8 is another well worn out verse by the apologists.

    The verse is quoted from Psalm 45:6.

    Note how "elohim" is translated "God"?

    “And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god {elohim} to Pharaoh". (Exod. 7:1).

    How much more of the Son?

    Used also of the judges. (Psa. 82:6 cf. John 10:34 and Exod. 22:9, 28).

    I perceive Nomad is a clever and highly intellectual man who is well schooled in the Word. He would know this verse only reveals how Yahweh appointed and makes strong those who are referred to as "God".

    But this does not imply:
    1. Jesus is God the Son
    2. Jesus is the Eternal Son
    3. Jesus previously possessed deity

    However Nomad, I am personally very comfortable with worshipping Jesus Christ, as no doubt you are. We do so however with differing degrees of understanding.

    I adhere to "If you loved me (Jesus), you would have rejoiced, because I (Jesus) am going to the Father (Yahweh), for the Father is greater than I.

    Insight
     
  15. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the son he saith: God thy seat shall be <¦thy seat endureth¦> for ever, and ever. The sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity: Wherefore hath God, which is thy God, <hath> anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (William Tyndale's translation of it back in the 16th century represents the first translation of the Bible into English)

    This is based upon the fact that the kings of Israel were said to sit on God's throne and God empowered their rule.

    The Son was given the throne of David and he sat on God's throne as did those kings over Israel.

    Luke 1:32 "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:"

    Revelation 3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."

    Hebrews 8:1 "Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;"

    Your stubbornness is going to cause you great loss. Understanding the Bible is like putting a puzzle together by looking at the picture to determine how to place the parts.

    The way you are going about it is like looking only at the shape of the parts but never seeing the picture.

    I truly, truly am sad for you.

    Amen, I touched on that briefly back in post #35 when I said I speak of the Son as God revealed and commented on Matthew 11:27 and Luke 10:22.

    It is sad what they miss. They have no idea of this beautiful picture nor how they are railing against the ones that truly care about them.
     
  16. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Nice try Insight, but your answer ignores the greater context of Hebrews 1:8.

    Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
    Heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
    Heb 1:10 And, "You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;
    Heb 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment,
    Heb 1:12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end."

    Verses 10-12 are a quote of Psalm 102. The entire Psalm is about Yahweh. The writer to the Hebrews applies it to the Son. So no, Insight, "elohim" is not being used in some lesser sense as you contend. Hebrews 1:8-12 clearly portrays the Son as Yahweh.
     
  17. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    No, the Hebrew there as you word it is but one more translation by wishful Trinitarians.

    You really need to spend more time around a full fledged Jewish Rabbi. He would set you straight at least on his language and that would help you quite a bit.
     
  18. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    That is the most ridiculous translation I've ever seen. God makes himself "a seat" for a creature? What nonsense. Your translation also has God referring to himself in the third person. This is nothing but a desperate attempt to get around the clear teaching of Scripture.


    Where does Scripture teach this? Chapter and verse please. The other glaring problem with such nonsense is that there is a vast difference between someone sitting on God's throne and God himself being that throne. I have to say, Vengle, you're really pushing the nonsense meter to its limit today.
     
  19. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You sound like you would have volunteered to be Tyndale's executioner when they strangled him and burned his body on a stake.

    You are not even trying. That is obvious. Your words voice your unwillingness to even try to look for yourself so as to see.

    Acts 7:49 "Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?"

    Do you find that ridiculous also? You have no spiritual perception at all. None whatsoever. That is really sad.
     
  20. Nomad

    Nomad Post Tenebras Lux

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    Where exactly does your quote even come close to saying that God makes himself a creature's seat or throne?
     
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