22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

The Romans who were Messiah's agents of judgment and destruction destroyed the temple.

That is verifiable Scripturally fulfilled history.

Talk about "Forcing" the holy scripture

The pagan Roman's are now God's people and agents in 66-70AD destruction "Laughable"!

It's amazing at how far one will go in falsely promoting preterist 66-70AD fulfillment, "Sad"!

Pagan Roman's, Are People Of Jesus Christ, "Big Smiles"!

Daniel 9:26KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Confusing the great and terrible day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, with the Millennium is a mistake.
These Prophesies confirm that the DoL will be a single day event. Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Revelation 18:8

Isaiah 9:14 is talking about moment in Israel's history when the Lord will cause Israel to be led by fools. At that time, the event that takes a single day is the death of the leader and the prophet in Israel. John, in Revelation 18 speaks about the downfall of Babylon, which will take place in a single day. I believe Babylon has control of a world-wide financial system, which is vulnerable at a certain spot. All it would take to bring down the system is to trigger that vulnerability and the whole system will crash in a single day.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Really?

1. Have ethnic Israelis come back to Palestine in obedience to God?
2. Have they taken their ancient boundaries?
3. is there anywhere in the New Testament that teaches that Israel will take back their ancient boundaries?
4. Does Israel embrace Jesus Christ today?
5. Is Israel a theocracy today?

Israel is back in the land, she is not a theocracy. Ancient boundaries are irrelevant. Israel will not embrace Jesus Christ until the Second Advent.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Peter is clearly explaining that the day of the Lord is fire time (The End), you divert from this fact of scripture to maintain your belief and teaching, it's that simple

Your claim that this day of the Lord is seen over a long period of time in stages, is way out in left field, found no place in scripture

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If I claim that 2 Peter 3:10-13 falls at the end of a much larger time period, then quoting the passage isn't a rebuttal.

We must bear in mind that according to his own word, Peter wrote his second letter by way of reminder. In other words, his readers have already heard his complete teaching on the subject. What we have here is the conclusion of a much larger teaching. In order to find the larger body of teaching on the subject we need to examine other texts, which contain more of the larger picture.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief
Not only does Peter teach this, so does Paul and Jesus himself. The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. I believe the metaphor of the thief in the night speaks of two major issues concerning that day, 1) awareness, and 2) evanescence.

Awareness:
Paul teaches that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night for those who are children of darkness and those that are asleep in the figurative sense. The day will not overtake those who are awake because they are prepared and ready for that day. I believe Jesus' parable of the 10 virgins teaches the same idea. Even some folks who anticipate the coming of the Lord, will fail to prepare for his return.

Evanescence:
Jesus teaches his disciples to count the cost and weigh the relative value of temporal things as contrasted with eternal things. He teaches us to store up treasures for ourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor rust can destroy them. He tells a parable about a man who finds a treasure in a field and selling everything he has, he buys that field. Temporal things have value but eternal things are of much greater value. Thus, we set our minds on things above.

Bottom line:
Evanescence is an essential aspect of the coming of that day. Things that we thought were permanent and essential, will eventually disappear. Peter's laser focus on the Eschaton speaks of the final stage of the dissolution of the temporal age, but the coming of that day will witness a partial dissolution, which begins with the fire armies of Joel chapter 2, which speak of the burning of Palestine. During that time, those who fear the Lord will be required to weigh the value of things and choose to make the trip to Jerusalem. Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are unable to form a coherent argument to support your doctrine, so you resort to insults instead. A clear sign that you have no argument.

Tell me, was Paul using a cult mentality when he taught that the promises God made to Abraham and his seed were made to Abraham and to his seed, Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:16)? And was Paul using a cult mentality when he indicated that those promises apply to those who belong to Christ as well (Galatians 3:29)?

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ....29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What Paul taught here cannot be clearly seen in the Old Testament. So, was he spiritualizing scripture by saying what he did in Galatians 3? If so, then there is nothing wrong with that.

Yes, What Paul taught is clearly seen in the Old Testament. Paul didn't set out to invent a new religion. He finds universal salvation in the OT and proves universal salvation from the scriptures. He takes you to the OT so that you might be convinced from them. James did the same thing during the Jerusalem council. Acts of the Apostles 15:13-18

 

[CadyandZoe]

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.

Notice here that Peter encouraged his readers "to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. He implied that the destruction relating to the day of the Lord could arrive during their lifetimes and he didn't want any of them to experience it. So, it makes no sense to conclude that the destruction he talked about couldn't possibly occur during the lifetimes of his readers. Why will you not acknowledge this?

I do not acknowledge your premise that Peter expected his readers to experience the Eschaton. One does not need to experience the end of the world to experience the benefits of the New world.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium

Yes, most all Christians that I know of believe that Jesus is literally coming back to earth "just as he left." That's because Jesus himslef indicated that through the angel.

Acts 1.10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

What kind of weird cult do you belong to that you don't believe basic Christian doctrine? Surely you don't belong here, spreading heresy among Christians, some of whom are likely to be young and vulnerable to *your* deceptions!

Whether or not you believe Jesus will rule for a literal thousand years or not is besides the point. All Amillennialists believe he is literally coming back to earth to rule over the earth in a New Creation.

I was raised in an Amil Lutheran Church, and we always recited the creed, that he's "coming back to judge the quick and the dead." If you don't believe that, you're a heretic.

 

[Truth7t7]

If I claim that 2 Peter 3:10-13 falls at the end of a much larger time period, then quoting the passage isn't a rebuttal.

We must bear in mind that according to his own word, Peter wrote his second letter by way of reminder. In other words, his readers have already heard his complete teaching on the subject. What we have here is the conclusion of a much larger teaching. In order to find the larger body of teaching on the subject we need to examine other texts, which contain more of the larger picture.

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief
Not only does Peter teach this, so does Paul and Jesus himself. The day of the Lord comes like a thief in the night. I believe the metaphor of the thief in the night speaks of two major issues concerning that day, 1) awareness, and 2) evanescence.

Awareness:
Paul teaches that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night for those who are children of darkness and those that are asleep in the figurative sense. The day will not overtake those who are awake because they are prepared and ready for that day. I believe Jesus' parable of the 10 virgins teaches the same idea. Even some folks who anticipate the coming of the Lord, will fail to prepare for his return.

Evanescence:
Jesus teaches his disciples to count the cost and weigh the relative value of temporal things as contrasted with eternal things. He teaches us to store up treasures for ourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor rust can destroy them. He tells a parable about a man who finds a treasure in a field and selling everything he has, he buys that field. Temporal things have value but eternal things are of much greater value. Thus, we set our minds on things above.

Bottom line:
Evanescence is an essential aspect of the coming of that day. Things that we thought were permanent and essential, will eventually disappear. Peter's laser focus on the Eschaton speaks of the final stage of the dissolution of the temporal age, but the coming of that day will witness a partial dissolution, which begins with the fire armies of Joel chapter 2, which speak of the burning of Palestine. During that time, those who fear the Lord will be required to weigh the value of things and choose to make the trip to Jerusalem. Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

Sorry your forcing something into scripture not seen

The day of the Lord is like a thief, and the fire doesn't come and go, it's sudden as a woman in child birth

You have desires, dreams, and fantasy, but they aren't found in scripture as you claim

 

[Truth7t7]

What kind of weird cult do you belong to that you don't believe basic Christian doctrine? Surely you don't belong here, spreading heresy among Christians, some of whom are likely to be young and vulnerable to *your* deceptions!

Whether or not you believe Jesus will rule for a literal thousand years or not is besides the point. All Amillennialists believe he is literally coming back to earth to rule over the earth in a New Creation.

I was raised in an Amil Lutheran Church, and we always recited the creed, that he's "coming back to judge the quick and the dead." If you don't believe that, you're a heretic.

Randy you know well that I believe in the "Second Coming of Jesus Christ" in "Final Judgement", as you have read this post "Several Times", your untrue claims are "Pure Slander"!

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Taken]

Taken SAID:
He who ALLOWS the sacrifices and oblations (corrupt religious offerings) and abomination IS the Lord God.

He who CEASES HIS ALLOWING, of sacrifices, oblations, abominations, IS the Lord God.

I Disagree, Jesus Doesn't Make Abomination or Desolation

You disagreed with SCRIPTURE.

Isa 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God Created and Made....GOOD and EVIL.
God DIRECTS His Created and Made manKIND of thing...
TO CHOOSE GOOD.
God ALLOWS His Created and Made manKIND of thing...
TO CHOOSE EVIL.


Taken said;
He who continues ACCEPTING men JOINING with the Lord God...even until the consummation...IS the Lord God.

You disagreed with Taken,
You accused Taken of a False Belief,
You accused Taken of a False Teaching,
THEN YOU Claimed The consummation is FUTURE.
What the do you think UNTIL means?

"The Consummation" didn't take place in 66:70AD Jerusalem as you falsely believe and teach, it's "Future" unfulfilled, it's that simple

Do you NOT understand what is said, BEFORE you respond?

 

[WPM]

Israel is back in the land, she is not a theocracy. Ancient boundaries are irrelevant. Israel will not embrace Jesus Christ until the Second Advent.

Ok. Got it. So, this is not a biblical return to the land then. They are back in rebellion.

Where does it say in the Bible that "Israel will not embrace Jesus Christ until the Second Advent"?

 

[WPM]

What kind of weird cult do you belong to that you don't believe basic Christian doctrine? Surely you don't belong here, spreading heresy among Christians, some of whom are likely to be young and vulnerable to *your* deceptions!

What way is this to talk to fellow posters? This is totally unacceptable and unChristian. Please keep it off this thread.

 

[Truth7t7]

Taken SAID:
He who ALLOWS the sacrifices and oblations (corrupt religious offerings) and abomination IS the Lord God.

He who CEASES HIS ALLOWING, of sacrifices, oblations, abominations, IS the Lord God.




You disagreed with SCRIPTURE.

Isa 45:
[7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

John 1:
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

God Created and Made....GOOD and EVIL.
God DIRECTS His Created and Made manKIND of thing...
TO CHOOSE GOOD.
God ALLOWS His Created and Made manKIND of thing...
TO CHOOSE EVIL.


Taken said;
He who continues ACCEPTING men JOINING with the Lord God...even until the consummation...IS the Lord God.

You disagreed with Taken,
You accused Taken of a False Belief,
You accused Taken of a False Teaching,
THEN YOU Claimed The consummation is FUTURE.
What the do you think UNTIL means?



Do you NOT understand what is said, BEFORE you respond?

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Sorry your forcing something into scripture not seen

The day of the Lord is like a thief, and the fire doesn't come and go, it's sudden as a woman in child birth

You have desires, dreams, and fantasy, but they aren't found in scripture as you claim

What part was forced?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ok. Got it. So, this is not a biblical return to the land then. They are back in rebellion.

Where does it say in the Bible that "Israel will not embrace Jesus Christ until the Second Advent"?

It doesn't matter. It makes no difference. All that matters, today, is that they have returned.

 

[WPM]

It doesn't matter. It makes no difference. All that matters, today, is that they have returned.

The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove." So, please address the question or admit that your claim is wrong.

 

[Truth7t7]

What part was forced?

"The Day Of The Lord" is the last day of man and earths existence (The End)

 

[Randy Kluth]

What way is this to talk to fellow posters? This is totally unacceptable and unChristian. Please keep it off this thread.

Oh, so you're defending heresy too? Why am I not surprised. The creeds indicate that virtually all Christians believe Christ is literally coming back to earth to "judge the living and the dead." If you don't believe that, you don't belong on any real Christian forum.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy you know well that I believe in the "Second Coming of Jesus Christ" in "Final Judgement", as you have read this post "Several Times", your untrue claims are "Pure Slander"!

No, obviously I didn't know that. Read your post again. You were not only denying a literal 1000 year reign, which is fine, but you were also denying a literal coming back to earth by Jesus!! Shocked me! So you might want to reword and edit what you said?

I understood that you don't believe in a literal earthly Millennium, but then you said Jesus isn't coming back to earth either. You said:

"Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim"

Maybe I just don't understand Amill thinking very well? Since we all believe the creeds--or so I thought, I figure Amills view the 2nd Coming as following a "spiritual Millennium" and Jesus will, for Amills, arrive to rule over the new earth?

But now I'm thinking you guys think that Jesus is just a figment of our imagination? He's a spiritual reality along with a spiritualized new earth? Help me out! I apologize if I misunderstood you! I've been fighting with what I think is COVID the last 4 days--both me and my wife, so bear that in mind. I'm a bit testy.

 

[dad]

The Romans who were Messiah's agents of judgment and destruction destroyed the temple.

That is verifiable Scripturally fulfilled history.

Romans did come and destroy. They were not God's people. They were the people of that evil prince that is still to come one day. That fourth beast is the same beast that the final ten toes come from.