Legalism in religion

[dev553344]

I've been watching some religious talks from different churches as I still haven't decided which church to join and in one I'm noticing legalism. And it's not such a bad thing as they stress obeying the commandments. But as I watch and listen to the talks I'm hearing a couple things that throw me off, and they appear to be centered around legalism.

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

As far as number 1. I think we need to provide works meet for repentance. But I know I can't do anything that will save myself.

And number 2 just sounds all wrong to me. As people can be shamed into guilt by secular people just the same as religious people.

Does anybody else encounter these things in their religion or similar ideas brought on by legalism.

I just want to discuss these legalism brought on ideas so I can get a better understanding of what I believe and don't believe.

 

[Charlie24]

I've been watching some religious talks from different churches as I still haven't decided which church to join and in one I'm noticing legalism. And it's not such a bad thing as they stress obeying the commandments. But as I watch and listen to the talks I'm hearing a couple things that throw me off, and they appear to be centered around legalism.

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

As far as number 1. I think we need to provide works meet for repentance. But I know I can't do anything that will save myself.

And number 2 just sounds all wrong to me. As people can be shamed into guilt by secular people just the same as religious people.

Does anybody else encounter these things in their religion or similar ideas brought on by legalism.

I just want to discuss these legalism brought on ideas so I can get a better understanding of what I believe and don't believe.

None of us are worthy of anything from God! The Scripture says, "there is none righteous, no not one."

The righteousness we receive at salvation is not ours, it's the righteousness of Christ that He earned, freely given to us through faith in His finished work.

Legalism is no better defined than in one who seeks earn the Grace of God. It can't be done. And one who thinks he is worthy of that righteousness, or believes he is worthy of the Kingdom of God, has not humbled himself at the foot of the Cross.

Through faith we have been given something we don't deserve! I question the salvation of one who thinks he is worthy of anything from God. On the other hand, one should see that only by the Grace of God is there any hope for us.

Through the regeneration of one who has believed in the Christ, there comes a humbleness, a sense of knowing he is at the mercy of God, at the mercy and promise of the Almighty God that He has granted you eternal life for believing in His Son.

And there is nothing you can do but believe Him, trust Him that even though you know you are not worthy, He has pardoned you through His great love.

Our works are solely out of love for God, The mercy we have found, we want others to experience!

 

[dev553344]

None of us are worthy of anything from God! The Scripture says, "there is none righteous, no not one."

The righteousness we receive at salvation is not ours, it's the righteousness of Christ that He earned, freely given to us through faith in His finished work.

Legalism is no better defined than in one who seeks earn the Grace of God. It can't be done. And one who thinks he is worthy of that righteousness, or believes he is worthy of the Kingdom of God, has not humbled himself at the foot of the Cross.

Through faith we have been given something we don't deserve! I question the salvation of one who thinks he is worthy of anything from God. On the other hand, one should see that only by the Grace of God is there any hope for us.

Through the regeneration of one who has believed in the Christ, there comes a humbleness, a sense of knowing he is at the mercy of God, at the mercy and promise of the Almighty God that He has granted you eternal life for believing in His Son.

And there is nothing you can do but believe Him, trust Him that even though you know you are not worthy, He has pardoned you through His great love.

Our works are solely out of love for God, The mercy we have found, we want others to experience!

OK, so I mostly believe that. But the scriptures say "buy of me gold tried in the fire and white garments and eye salve" (Revelation 3:18-19). And how do we buy something from God if we're not working for it? And that doesn't necessarily mean we have to work for our salvation. But the bible is clear that those who don't work for the Lord get cast into the fire.

 

[Charlie24]

OK, so I mostly believe that. But the scriptures say "buy of me gold tried in the fire and white garments and eye salve" (Revelation 3:18-19). And how do we buy something from God if we're not working for it?

That verse is referring to what Isaiah told us, "come and buy without money and without price."

"Buying the gold tried in the fire" is the spiritual process of purifying.

It is the redeeming of man that costs you nothing, but you are buying into the Kingdom of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

I've been watching some religious talks from different churches as I still haven't decided which church to join and in one I'm noticing legalism. And it's not such a bad thing as they stress obeying the commandments. But as I watch and listen to the talks I'm hearing a couple things that throw me off, and they appear to be centered around legalism.

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

As far as number 1. I think we need to provide works meet for repentance. But I know I can't do anything that will save myself.

And number 2 just sounds all wrong to me. As people can be shamed into guilt by secular people just the same as religious people.

Does anybody else encounter these things in their religion or similar ideas brought on by legalism.

I just want to discuss these legalism brought on ideas so I can get a better understanding of what I believe and don't believe.

A lot of misconceptions regarding this topic and a lot of misinformation.

Legalism is a Jewish thing....and it did not lead to salvation.

The 613 Mosaic law are for the Jews....not Christians....that includes the Ten Summaries of Commandments, that people call "The Ten Commandments.

Obeying Christ and the Apostles is in no way legalism....morality is not legalism.

Then on the other hand a person can obey the moral teachings of Christ and the Apostles and still go to hell. Nice people can go to hell and Christians can go to hell if they are immoral enough.

We are eligible for Heaven due to our faith in Christ but it is not morals or Good Deeds that get us there. But being saved is not an instant in time....not a ticket to Heaven....workout your salvation with fear and trembling.....Christians will be judged on all we do both good and bad.

 

[dev553344]

That verse is referring to what Isaiah told us, "come and buy without money and without price."

"Buying the gold tried in the fire" is the spiritual process of purifying.

It is the redeeming of man that costs you nothing, but you are buying into the Kingdom of God.

What about the "The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard" that the Lord pays a denarius (Matthew 20:1-16).

 

[dev553344]

A lot of misconceptions regarding this topic and a lot of misinformation.

Legalism is a Jewish thing....and it did not lead to salvation.

The 613 Mosaic law are for the Jews....not Christians....that includes the Ten Summaries of Commandments, that people call "The Ten Commandments.

Obeying Christ and the Apostles is in no way legalism....morality is not legalism.

Then on the other hand a person can obey the moral teachings of Christ and the Apostles and still go to hell. Nice people can go to hell and Christians can go to hell if they are immoral enough.

We are eligible for Heaven due to our faith in Christ but it is not morals or Good Deeds that get us there. But being saved is not an instant in time....not a ticket to Heaven....workout your salvation with fear and trembling.....Christians will be judged on all we do both good and bad.

Well the definition of legalism as far as it relates to theology is: "dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith."

And that seems like what the things I listed stem from.

 

[Charlie24]

What about the "The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard" that the Lord pays a denarius (Matthew 20:1-16).

If you notice in the previous chapter, vs 27, Peter asks Christ "what shall we have therefore?"

Beginning in chapter 20:1, Jesus is answering the question by Peter. He wants to know what the 12 will have for forsaking all and following Christ.

What Christ reveals is this parable is that the reward is not of debt, but of Grace!

Some worked more than others but all agreed for the same price. It's the spiritual aspect as all of Christ' parables were.

 

[Enoch111]

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

This is TOTALLY FALSE. Since no one is "worthy" of salvation, God gives the free gift of eternal life or salvation to all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

If you know you are a child of God, you (your spirit and soul) will go to Heaven when you die. God makes you "worthy" of Heaven by imputing to you the righteousness of Christ. That is called "justification by grace through faith" and "imputed righteousness".

 

[dev553344]

This is TOTALLY FALSE. Since no one is "worthy" of salvation, God gives the free gift of eternal life or salvation to all who repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

If you know you are a child of God, you (your spirit and soul) will go to Heaven when you die. God makes you "worthy" of Heaven by imputing to you the righteousness of Christ. That is called "justification by grace through faith" and "imputed righteousness".

What does this scripture mean? There are a few scriptures that tell us to be worthy of our calling, etc. Not to say we can earn salvation because we can't.

Luke 21:34-36

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[dev553344]

If you notice in the previous chapter, vs 27, Peter asks Christ "what shall we have therefore?"

Beginning in chapter 20:1, Jesus is answering the question by Peter. He wants to know what the 12 will have for forsaking all and following Christ.

What Christ reveals is this parable is that the reward is not of debt, but of Grace!

Some worked more than others but all agreed for the same price. It's the spiritual aspect as all of Christ' parables were.

I kinda see something of the scriptures when I read that they all get one denarius. Such that God taught us that there should be no poor among the people of his church. And so that some came late in the parable and some early, yet they all received the same. Kinda like there is equality among the saved.

But the scriptures also say we will be judged according to our works. Also that the greatest is those that become as little children. I'm confused.

 

[Charlie24]

I kinda see something of the scriptures when I read that they all get one denarius. Such that God taught us that there should be no poor among the people of his church. And so that some came late in the parable and some early, yet they all received the same. Kinda like there is equality among the saved.

But the scriptures also say we will be judged according to our works. Also that the greatest is those that become as little children. I'm confused.

There are 2 judgement in the end, one for the lost who never accepted Christ, and one for the saved who are in Christ.

The Judgement Seat of Christ, or the Bema Seat as some call it, is the judgement only for those in Christ.

There is no fault in these, they have been washed in the Blood of the Lamb and are spotless in the eyes of God (nothing but pure Grace). Grace = something given to man in which does not deserve.

At this Seat/Judgement, Paul tells us that our works will be tried in the fire, or what sort they are. This is the motivation of our works, did we do these things for the right reason.

Paul said some works will pass the test (the right reason and motivation) but some works will be burned up, not passing the proper motivation and reasons, and that man will suffer loss.

But praise God, Paul continued to say, "if a mans works be burned he will suffer loss, BUT he will still be saved.

Right here we have the true reason for works, that they do not effect our salvation! "It is by faith we are saved, and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." As Paul so famously said!

 

[Grailhunter]

"dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith."

Dependence on moral law for what?

This sounds like something the OSAS crowd would embrace. Nothing that Christ or the Apostles would endorse.

 

[Brakelite]

The descriptive, 'legalism', is often a mere imagined excuse for a lack of willingness to obey, and forsake known sin.

 

[Enoch111]

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Notice "worthy to escape all these things" not "worthy to enter Heaven". So the ones who are saved will be watching and praying and thus escape the Tribulation and Great Tribulation.

 

[Lambano]

I've been watching some religious talks from different churches as I still haven't decided which church to join and in one I'm noticing legalism. And it's not such a bad thing as they stress obeying the commandments. But as I watch and listen to the talks I'm hearing a couple things that throw me off, and they appear to be centered around legalism.

1. That we need to prove to God that we are worthy be saved.

2. That we will go to the after life area that we know we belong and know we are worthy of.

As far as number 1. I think we need to provide works meet for repentance. But I know I can't do anything that will save myself.

And number 2 just sounds all wrong to me. As people can be shamed into guilt by secular people just the same as religious people.

Does anybody else encounter these things in their religion or similar ideas brought on by legalism.

I just want to discuss these legalism brought on ideas so I can get a better understanding of what I believe and don't believe.

The previous board I was a member of was run by a Reformed ministry that had a strong Grace orientation. We are NOT worthy of salvation; we are dependent on God's love and mercy, and sin is inevitable in this life. CB in contrast to the other board seems to have more of a Don't Sin! orientation (though not so much on our feed the hungry, clothe the naked, tend the sick, visit the prisoners obligations), and what Wesley called "Entire Sanctification" is possible in this life, at least for limited periods of time. I recognize the tension between those two positions in the Bible. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, but we have an obligation to strive against what we are in order to practice in the now what it is promised we will become.

I don't think I understand what you were saying about the shame issue. The position that we will know we are worthy of our afterlife, strikes me as wrong both because it denies salvation is a gift from God, and because the prideful attitude it embodies is as fleshly sinful as adultery and murder.

Postscript: Looking back on the post, I don't think I helped shed any light on what "Legalism" is or whether it is right or wrong.

 

[dev553344]

Dependence on moral law for what?

This sounds like something the OSAS crowd would embrace. Nothing that Christ or the Apostles would endorse.

Probably. But I created the thread to discuss a more extreme legalism instead of standard Christian teachings. But the main point I was trying to get to was how much of this stuff I should believe and how much to just toss out.

I like that we should provide works to be saved by Christ. Because without them I don't think Christ will save us. Unless we're disabled or something.

 

[dev553344]

The previous board I was a member of was run by a Reformed ministry that had a strong Grace orientation. We are NOT worthy of salvation; we are dependent on God's love and mercy, and sin is inevitable in this life. CB in contrast to the other board seems to have more of a Don't Sin! orientation (though not so much on our feed the hungry, clothe the naked, tend the sick, visit the prisoners obligations), and what Wesley called "Entire Sanctification" is possible in this life, at least for limited periods of time. I recognize the tension between those two positions in the Bible. Salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, but we have an obligation to strive against what we are in order to practice in the now what it is promised we will become.

I don't think I understand what you were saying about the shame issue. The position that we will know we are worthy of our afterlife, strikes me as wrong both because it denies salvation is a gift from God, and because the prideful attitude it embodies is as fleshly sinful as adultery and murder.

Postscript: Looking back on the post, I don't think I helped shed any light on what "Legalism" is or whether it is right or wrong.

No that is helpful.

Thru counseling and my own personal life I have found that people can cause us to feel unworthy of something that we are in fact worthy of. That's all I was implying with the shaming idea.

 

[Grailhunter]

Probably. But I created the thread to discuss a more extreme legalism instead of standard Christian teachings. But the main point I was trying to get to was how much of this stuff I should believe and how much to just toss out.

I like that we should provide works to be saved by Christ. Because without them I don't think Christ will save us. Unless we're disabled or something.

Works is a Jewish thing. When Paul talks about works, he is talking about the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law cannot get you to Heaven. Being a Good person can not get you to Heaven. Faith in Christ and Acts 2:38 and I would recommend the bread and wine ritual. Then Christianity is a religion of morals and conduct. Common sense applies. Give what you can afford and help who you can. It is not rocket science.

But mostly we waste our time talking about the absurd....Calvinism and OSAS....it is garbage.

A good topic is where is that line of no return. How far can you deviate from The Way before there is no return. How far can you go down that sinful path and hope not to go to Hell....that is topic. Why do people think that they get a ticket to Heaven at baptism? How many warnings are in the New Testament about the sins that will prevent you from going to Heaven? Good topic.

 

[dev553344]

Works is a Jewish thing. When Paul talks about works, he is talking about the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law cannot get you to Heaven. Being a Good person can not get you to Heaven. Faith in Christ and Acts 2:38 and I would recommend the bread and wine ritual. Then Christianity is a religion of morals and conduct. Common sense applies. Give what you can afford and help who you can. It is not rocket science.

But mostly we waste our time talking about the absurd....Calvinism and OSAS....it is garbage.

A good topic is where is that line of no return. How far can you deviate from The Way before there is no return. How far can go down that sinful path and hope not to go to Hell....that is topic. Why do people think that they get a ticket to Heaven at baptism? How many warnings are in the New Testament about the sins that will prevent you from going to Heaven? Good topic.

Well that's partially my point then. In the sheep and goats of Matthew 25:31-46 we learn that people that don't help the less fortunate don't go to heaven. So these works are required as I see it. It is important to observe the do and don't commandments. Do good works and refraining from evil works.

Personally I think God saves those that aren't selfish. I looked into sin and it all comes down to selfishness in sinning. From adultery and not considering what other people go thru when it's committed to stealing, bearing false witness and then the sheep and goats brought it home for me. And it's a lack of love for those people we harm that leads to sin.