Did Christians invent the Trinity-2

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theefaith

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I believe the ancient faith of the Messiah.
I believe the ancient faith of the Messiah.

Phil 2;10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

unless Jesus is divine God this would be a violation of the 1st commandment ex 20:2-6

Ex 20 2-6
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Question: who is the Lord of Glory?
 

theefaith

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the KJV says trinity or triune God!

1 Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

one what? One God! One divine nature!
 

Matthias

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Are you a mono-theist?
One God!

Yes, as is the Messiah. His one God is my one God. I don’t acknowledge any other God besides this one.

who then is the Holy Spirit!
Not God and not the father?
Not man?
Who or what is he?

As you know, I’ve always credited the Roman Catholic Church as the source of the doctrine of the Trinity.

In A.D. 380 the Church was still unsettled on the question of who or what the Holy Spirit is. It is with the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381 that the matter was finally resolved.

It took approximately 350 years for your spiritual ancestors to come to a decision on the Holy Spirit.
 

Matthias

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Phil 2;10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

unless Jesus is divine God this would be a violation of the 1st commandment ex 20:2-6

Ex 20 2-6
2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lordthy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Question: who is the Lord of Glory?

Your premise is that Jesus (not alone, of course) is the Lord God. I reject the premise.

I’ve also pointed to the example of king David, a type of Jesus, being worshipped. There are many examples, hundreds, I suppose, of persons who weren’t the Lord God being worshipped in scripture.
 

theefaith

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Yes, as is the Messiah. His one God is my one God. I don’t acknowledge any other God besides this one.



As you know, I’ve always credited the Roman Catholic Church as the source of the doctrine of the Trinity.

In A.D. 380 the Church was still unsettled on the question of who or what the Holy Spirit is. It is with the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381 that the matter was finally resolved.

It took approximately 350 years for your spiritual ancestors to come to a decision on the Holy Spirit.

that’s an answer???
 

Matthias

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that’s an answer???

Yes. I’ll support it from Church history. It will take me a few minutes to locate it.

P.S.

Even among adherents of the Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession:‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.’

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, §128 The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit)

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH


Bold and underlining is mine.

Being as you are a Roman Catholic who has directed my attention to Church Councils on several occasions, there’s no need for me to provide you with background information on Gregory of Nazianzen. You will no doubt recognize him, as I do, as one of the key figures in the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
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theefaith

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Yes. I’ll support it from Church history. It will take me a few minutes to locate it.

P.S.

Even among adherents of the Nicene orthodoxy an uncertainty still for a time prevailed respecting the doctrine of the third person of the Holy Trinity. Some held the Spirit to be an impersonal power or attribute of God; others, at farthest, would not go beyond the expressions of the Scriptures. Gregory of Nazianzen, who, for his own part believed and taught the consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son, so late as 380 made the remarkable concession:‘Of the wise among us, some consider the Holy Ghost an influence, others a creature, others God himself, and again others know not which way to decide, from reverence, as they say, for the Holy Scripture, which declares nothing exact in the case. For this reason they waver between worshipping and not worshipping the Holy Ghost, and strike a middle course, which is in fact, a bad one.’

(Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, §128 The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit)

HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH


Bold and underlining is mine.

Being as you are a Roman Catholic who has directed my attention to Church Councils on several occasions, there’s no need for me to provide you with background information on Gregory of Nazianzen. You will no doubt recognize him, as I do, as one of the key figures in the formulation of the doctrine of the Trinity.

I was not asking about any of that, I was asking you about you’re Unitarian beliefs

what to you believe about the HS?
 

Matthias

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I was not asking about any of that, I was asking you about you’re Unitarian beliefs

My unitarian belief about the Holy Spirit hasn’t changed since the last time we discussed it.

Have you ever asked one of the binitarians what their belief is concerning the Holy Spirit? I have. Some of them have told me they believe the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force; some have told me they believe the Holy Spirit is personal but not another person who is God.

what to you believe about the HS?

I believe the Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God, extended through the risen Messiah to believers.
 

theefaith

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My unitarian belief about the Holy Spirit hasn’t changed since the last time we discussed it.

Have you ever asked one of the binitarians what their belief is concerning the Holy Spirit? I have. Some of them have told me they believe the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force; some have told me they believe the Holy Spirit is personal but not another person who is God.



I believe the Holy Spirit is the personal, operational presence and power of God, extended through the risen Messiah to believers.

then you say the father is the spirit?

must be either God, man or angel they ain’t nothing else
 

Matthias

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and only the father be God in you’re believing so the spirit is the father???

The Holy Spirit is the Father’s spirit.

The Father is literally God. The Son is figuratively God. The Holy Spirt is God’s operational presence and power, and it is extended to believers by the Son of God.
 

theefaith

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The Holy Spirit is the Father’s spirit.

The Father is literally God. The Son is figuratively God. The Holy Spirt is God’s operational presence and power, and it is extended to believers by the Son of God.

Therefore you believe the father and the spirit are one nature and one person?
 

Matthias

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Therefore you believe the father and the spirit are one nature and one person?

There is a very close connection in scripture between mind and spirit.

God is only one person, the Father. His spirit is the operation of his mind. He projects his mind, his spirit, his presence, his power, just like we - who are made in his image - do.
 

theefaith

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There is a very close connection in scripture between mind and spirit.

God is only one person, the Father. His spirit is the operation of his mind. He projects his mind, his spirit, his presence, his power, just like we - who are made in his image - do.

so you’re really not a Unitarian but believe in two Gods?
The father and the spirit
 

Matthias

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so you’re really not a Unitarian but believe in two Gods?
The father and the spirit

I’m really a Jewish monotheist who believes only in the one God, the Father.

The Messiah is also really a Jewish monotheist who believes only in the one God, the Father.

P.S.

You know that a person whose God is only one person is, by definition, a unitarian.

You recognize and acknowledge that I’m a unitarian. What is it that prevents you from recognizing and acknowledging that Jesus himself is, by definition, a unitarian?
 
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marks

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Christianity Board Statement of Faith

We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)

We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is co-equal with the Father. Jesus lived a completely sinless human life and offered himself freely on the cross as the perfect sacrifice for the sins of all, according to God’s plan revealed from the beginning. After three days, Jesus arose from the dead to demonstrate his power over death. He ascended to heaven to await his future return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. (Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 9:6-7, Matthew 1:22-25, John 1:1-5, John 14:10-30, Acts 1:9-11, Romans 1:3-4, I Corinthians 15:3-4, I Timothy 6:14-15, Titus 2:3, Hebrews 4:14-15)

We believe that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father and Son (Jesus). He is present in this world as an intercessor to make men and women aware of their need for Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit resides in every believer from the moment of salvation. He empowers the Christian with strength for living, understanding the truth, witnessing to others, and in doing what is right. (John 14:16-17, John 16:7-13, Acts 1:8, I Corinthians 2:12, I Corinthians 3:16, II Corinthians 3:17, Galatians 5:16-25, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 5:18-21)

Why are you here?

Much love!
 
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