The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

[WPM]

Funny, the Prophets(Ezekiel) reinstitute the sacrifices in the Millennial and 6 times in Rev 20 the 1000 years are mentioned....which you call "imagination".

You insult God's words as a lie.

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

You quoted 1 Cor 11:24-26 as your support text for the mass killing of countless innocent lambs and goats in the future world as memorial sacrifices. This has absolutely nothing to do with such nonsense and heresy. Where are animal sacrifices mentioned here? You're doing despite to the cross. This is talking about Calvary. You're making a mockery of the new covenant. You are undermining Christ and what He has done for us. Where does Scripture teach that we well reintroduce blood animal sacrifices under the new covenant as "memorials."

Is Jesus Christ not enough for you? Is the cross not enough for you? Was the shedding of his blood not efficacious enough for you? He is certainly enough for those who are genuinely redeemed. He is enough for we Amils. They will not need mass blood-letting of countless innocent animals in the world to come "to express righteous sentiment just as they always did." That is ridiculous. Amils believe that the lion and the lamb will be at eternal rest in the age to come.

 

[Truther]

He made a covenant with Abrahm that his seed would create a great nation which lead to Jesus, the Messiah and He would be a blessing to the world. Romans 11 shows a distinction between the Gentiles and Israel. I guess you can't see it?



Jesus is the main focus of the Bible and Life spiritual and physical. He is Life itself. He is the CTEATOR. YOU implied that Jesus is the angel in Rev. 20. That tells me you are a Non-Trinitarian.
So how could your whole heart, devotion and love be focused on Jesus, when you think henis a angel and NOT God? GOD IS TO BE OUR FOCUS. Your focus on this forum seems to be the attack on Pre-Millennialism, the disparaging of our hope for His imminent return, His Earthly Kingdom Come, His will be on earth as it is in Heaven, Anti-Semitism and I guess we'll wait and see if you start attacking Trinitarians in other threads.
My point was simply that most Bible events in history centered around Jerusalem. It was considered the holy city and many believe that it will be in the MK. You don't, well you will find out soon.



Partially true, time will tell. People can be against God until that moment in time, their divine appointment and they are enlightened and see. Remember, we were all enemies of God once until He saved us. We're we reprobates? No. Were we on His list? Yes. How many of the Jews are on His list? YOU DON'T KNOW SO YOU SHOULD BE SILENT ABOUT THAT! I say all Israel will be saved and there is a distinction that you miss.



"Those who curse you will be cursed!" Watch out ... better shut up about that!



You are blind to see that God has brought many Jews back home since 1948 and has blessed them since. Look at all countries surrounding them! Israel has prospered more than any of them. They miraculously won wars while outnumbered - just like in the OT times.


We have been grafted into the vine, branches were cut off, but they will be grafted back into the vine again.
The things say are actually going against God's plan.

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew....

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Bingo!

 

[Truther]

1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

You quoted 1 Cor 11:24-26 as your support text for the mass killing of countless innocent lambs and goats in the future world as memorial sacrifices. This has absolutely nothing to do with such nonsense and heresy. Where are animal sacrifices mentioned here? You're doing despite to the cross. This is talking about Calvary. You're making a mockery of the new covenant. You are undermining Christ and what He has done for us. Where does Scripture teach that we well reintroduce blood animal sacrifices under the new covenant as "memorials."

Is Jesus Christ not enough for you? Is the cross not enough for you? Was the shedding of his blood not efficacious enough for you? He is certainly enough for those who are genuinely redeemed. He is enough for we Amils. They will not need mass blood-letting of countless innocent animals in the world to come "to express righteous sentiment just as they always did." That is ridiculous. Amils believe that the lion and the lamb will be at eternal rest in the age to come.

No, I am saying that at the same day the 1st century Jews were killing the passover, which GOD told them to kill in the OT, the Christians were having a memorial FEAST in 1st Cor 11 concerning the fulfillment of the passover. No vegans allowed.

Now, the sacrifices depicted to be reinstated in the future BY GOD, are a continuing memorial of the death of Jesus.

Not a day will go by that God will let mankind forget that His son died for their sins...not a day.

 

[WPM]

He made a covenant with Abrahm that his seed would create a great nation which lead to Jesus, the Messiah and He would be a blessing to the world. Romans 11 shows a distinction between the Gentiles and Israel. I guess you can't see it?



Jesus is the main focus of the Bible and Life spiritual and physical. He is Life itself. He is the CTEATOR. YOU implied that Jesus is the angel in Rev. 20. That tells me you are a Non-Trinitarian.
So how could your whole heart, devotion and love be focused on Jesus, when you think henis a angel and NOT God? GOD IS TO BE OUR FOCUS. Your focus on this forum seems to be the attack on Pre-Millennialism, the disparaging of our hope for His imminent return, His Earthly Kingdom Come, His will be on earth as it is in Heaven, Anti-Semitism and I guess we'll wait and see if you start attacking Trinitarians in other threads.
My point was simply that most Bible events in history centered around Jerusalem. It was considered the holy city and many believe that it will be in the MK. You don't, well you will find out soon.



Partially true, time will tell. People can be against God until that moment in time, their divine appointment and they are enlightened and see. Remember, we were all enemies of God once until He saved us. We're we reprobates? No. Were we on His list? Yes. How many of the Jews are on His list? YOU DON'T KNOW SO YOU SHOULD BE SILENT ABOUT THAT! I say all Israel will be saved and there is a distinction that you miss.



"Those who curse you will be cursed!" Watch out ... better shut up about that!



You are blind to see that God has brought many Jews back home since 1948 and has blessed them since. Look at all countries surrounding them! Israel has prospered more than any of them. They miraculously won wars while outnumbered - just like in the OT times.


We have been grafted into the vine, branches were cut off, but they will be grafted back into the vine again.
The things say are actually going against God's plan.

I understand your frustration at not having any viable biblical responses for Amils, but there is no need for your palpable bitterness, name-calling and ad hominem. This is a sign you have long-lost the battle. Your theology has been exposed and you have nothing to bring to the table. All you are let with is your infantile behavior.

Amils believe in the deity of Christ. They believe Jesus is God. They believe in the Trinity. Your denial that Jesus is the angel of the Lord in Scripture shows your own grave ignorance of the biblical facts. Name-calling is your MO. Because you cannot find any holds in the message, you have to attack the messengers. This shows your arguments are dead.

Please come into the New Testament. Read Romans 9-11 objectively. You will see there are 2 Israels, one elect and the other blinded. The election belongs alone to the elect. Simple! Those who are born again have been grafted into true Israel (believing Israel). We are the spiritual Jews. We are the circumcision. We are the offspring of God. We are the true children of Abraham. We are the only Israel that is chosen. We are “the children of God.” We are “the children of promise.”

We see this in Romans 9:6-13: “For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Here we see two Israels in view – one according to the flesh and one according to the Spirit. These are significantly identified in Romans 9:8 as “the children of God” or “the children of the promise.” The chosen seed obviously does not include every natural Israeli – as most, even in the Old Testament, seemed to rebel against God’s holy demands. Moreover, one could never call such “the children of God” or “the children of the promise” unless they were of the family of faith.

What this is saying is, those who are not saved have no right to consider themselves as true Israel. The apostle here identifies two Israels; one elect and believing, the other lost and unbelieving. One is true spiritual Israel (“the children of God”/“the children of the promise”), the other is unbelieving and merely “children of the flesh.” Basically: national theocratic Israel was a political entity in which a believing spiritual remnant – true Israel – abode. It is only those Jews who belong to the remnant that are true Israelis in God’s eyes.

Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9). It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.

• I have showed you that we have been grafted into the true Israeli spiritual good olive tree (Romans 9-11). You reject that.
• I have showed you that we who were once aliens from the citizenship of Israel have now been brought in through the blood of Christ to that privileged place (Ephesians 2). You reject that.
• I have showed you that Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the New Testament Church. This spiritual body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all (Galatians 6:15-16). You reject that.

The New Testament also clearly and repeatedly shows that we (the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the world) are the true Jews, the true circumcision (Romans 2:25-29; Philippians 3:3 and Colossians 2:11) and the true children of Abraham (Romans 4:11; 4:13-15; 4:16-18; 9:6-8; Galatians 3:7-9; 3:12-14; 3:16 and 3:26-29) today. We have been grafted in! Scripture makes clear that upon salvation we become citizens of the heavenly Jerusalem (true Jerusalem), which is also called Mount Zion (or God’s Sion). We see this in Matthew 21:42-46; John 3:3; Romans 9:33; 11:26; Ephesians 1:3; Ephesians 2:4-6; Philippians 3:20; Hebrews 12:22 and 1 Peter 2:5-10. These unambiguous, explicit and repeated Scriptures make that abundantly clear.

 

[WPM]

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew....

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


Bingo!

Paul declares in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Dispensationalists misrepresent, or conveniently circumvent, the wording of this text with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that to be considered faithful to Israel, God must be committed to the whole physical nation, even though it was apostate, rejected Christ and nailed Him to a tree. But that is not what Paul was pushing at or demanding. Paul actually takes such an inaccuracy head on. You can glean from his question at the opening of Romans 11 that he feels a real sense that the faithfulness of God is at stake. After all, the majority of his kinsmen had rejected their own Messiah. According to Paul, the evidence that God had not rejected Israel in his day is demonstrated by the fact that there was a notable remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement.

Dispensationalist cynics are quick to dismiss the continuity argument by alleging that for such a position to be valid it puts a significant question mark over God’s Word, integrity and faithfulness.

This reasoning results from a misconception of who and what true Israel actually is. Let us be clear: God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to experience His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We should not miss this thought as we explore the remainder of his argument in Romans 9-11.

Let us look at Paul’s arguments!

Paul’s first argument is personal. He supports his contention by presenting himself as exhibit A. He volunteers himself as tangible proof of God’s continued faithfulness toward Israel. We should recognize, there is no more compelling a spiritual argument than personal testimony. Paul proves that “God has hath not cast away his people” by presenting himself as an evidence of a chosen Israeli. God had not (nor has not) completely cast away Israel, Paul was living proof of this nearly 2,000 years ago. Even though much of Israel rejected Christ, not all did. Thus, Paul is saying not all Israel rejected the Messiah.

Please note, he did not present the continued survival of national Israel as proof (which many mistakenly do today), no, but rather his own personal relationship with God. He presents his own credentials as “an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin,” as proof that God has not finished with Israel. Paul was showing that he was living evidence that God has not turned his back on all Israel.

Paul’s second argument is theological: “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew” (Romans 11:2). Paul builds upon what he has been previously teaching in Romans 8 and 9. His teaching in Romans 8:29–30 and the whole of Romans 9 set the stage for this. God in His infinite wisdom chooses who He wishes. Paul underlines his overriding argument in Romans 9:18: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:21 sums up the whole matter succinctly: “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Salvation does not emanate from man. It cannot be realized by human effort. Man can no more create his second birth than he can his first birth. It is a Sovereign act of God’s mercy. This may be humbling to the flesh, but it is so. Professor R. Scott Clark asks: “Has God rejected his people? No, the elect are His people and all the elect will be saved … God’s election of some and reprobation of others are the twin facts of the history of redemption which Paul brings to bear on the question of ‘Who is the Israel of God?’”

Even Dispensationalist John McArthur agrees with this. “God didn’t set His people aside, He foreknew them. Notice the term ‘His people, whom He foreknew’ … Foreknowledge in the Bible has to do with predetermined love relationship … Foreknowledge, scripturally, has to do with God’s predetermination to love … This word frequently implies the intimacy of a binding love relationship in its simplest and purest form. And thus it is used in terms of the foreknowledge of God … God has not cast away His people whom He predetermined to have a love relationship with. He has not set aside Israel, and He shows how He always has a remnant. Verse 5: ‘At this present time there is a remnant’” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 1).

Paul’s third argument is historic. He presents Elijah’s day where there was a very small remnant of true Israelites (7,000 in number) as support for the fact that God always has a faithful people who remain in covenant arrangement with their Lord. This proved that his day was not unique or unprecedented at all. McArthur adds: “There are only selected ones of faith who are the true Israel. God always in all Israel’s history had a small remnant that was His elect. In Elijah’s time there were only 7,000 who hadn't bowed to Baal” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 1).

 

[WPM]

Wait, wait wait....


Who is your priest you give tithes to on Sunday?

Any Bible student that is familiar with both the Old Testament and the New Testament will know that Jesus didn’t come to lower the pole on most spiritual subjects, He actually highered it. You look at what constitutes murder, or fornication in the New Testament and it is a lot higher than the Old Testament. When it comes to the commitment within marriage, it is highered to one loving partner.

When it comes to service, it involves total surrender.

Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Jesus said here, and I will read it in the NKJV:

44 … she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

What was He getting at here?

They gave up their surplus, she gave other poverty.

The Lord was giving the disciples an important spiritual lesson here, demonstrating that giving in the New Testament era should not be limited to 10%. This widow didn’t merely give 10% as was her duty, she gave all.

These 2 mites were the smallest denomination of coins in Israel, but they were all she had.

Hers was a true sacrifice; the rich had not begun to give to the level of her sacrifice.

What about the rich young ruler?

Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21:

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

Matthew adds a little bit more unto the story in Matthew 19:20: “All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?”

This story gives us a glimpse into his thinking. He was putting his confident in his own good works, but he still couldn’t find peace or an assurance. He knew there had to be more to it. There are many like him!

Back to verse 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

It says “he went away sorrowful.”

Now, I’m going to say this: this man probably even tithed.

Jesus got right to the heart of this man’s problem, as He does. This man was guilty of covetousness. He loved his riches more than Jesus. The option was this: “follow me” or follow riches and fame.

The sad thing is, hell will be full of many similar religious zealots that foolishly trusted upon their “own righteousness.” They talked the talk but never walked the walk.

Jesus hit him with a sucker punch, one commandment that he didn’t keep – the 10th commandment: “Thou shalt not covet.” Jesus knows how to get right to the heart of the matter. He knows how to get to the stumbling block that is stopping you being real for God.

Another New Testament example for the cheapskates that refuse to give 10% of their income to the Lord can be found in Acts 4. There we see the early church pattern.

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

They entrusted the management of all their possessions to the spiritual leaders of the assembly.

One preacher asked: “Why is it when Zacchaeus got saved, the first thing he wanted to do was start giving. Yet today, people say they get saved & don’t?”

Peter Marshall: “Give according to your income lest God make your income according to your giving.”

 

[WPM]

No, I am saying that at the same day the 1st century Jews were killing the passover, which GOD told them to kill in the OT, the Christians were having a memorial FEAST in 1st Cor 11 concerning the fulfillment of the passover. No vegans allowed.

Now, the sacrifices depicted to be reinstated in the future BY GOD, are a continuing memorial of the death of Jesus.

Not a day will go by that God will let mankind forget that His son died for their sins...not a day.

Are you saying that the way that the New Testament church remembers the cross is by slitting the throat of innocent animals? Where in the New Testament does it say that "the sacrifices depicted to be reinstated in the future BY GOD, are a continuing memorial of the death of Jesus"? It seems like you are inventing your own theology to support your heresy.

 

[covenantee]

Like this?....


27 For this is my covenant unto them(ONLY THE GOOD GUYS), when I shall take away their(GOOD GUYS) sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they(BAD GUYS) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they(GOOD GUYS) are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God(ONLY FOR THE GOOD GUYS) are without repentance.


Or...


27 For this is my covenant unto them(BAD GUYS), when I shall take away their(BAD GUYS) sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they(BAD GUYS) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they(BAD GUYS) are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God(FOR THE BAD GUYS) are without repentance.


Question: were you a good guy or a bad guy when God saved you?

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1. I was a bad guy.
2. Then I confessed my sins and received Him.
3. Then He forgave my sins, cleansed me from all unrighteousness, saved me, and made me a good guy.

Explain how bad guys can skip step 2.

 

[Truther]

Paul declares in Romans 11:1-5:

Q. “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”

A. “God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Dispensationalists misrepresent, or conveniently circumvent, the wording of this text with their fixation on the whole nation of natural Israel. They seem to imagine that to be considered faithful to Israel, God must be committed to the whole physical nation, even though it was apostate, rejected Christ and nailed Him to a tree. But that is not what Paul was pushing at or demanding. Paul actually takes such an inaccuracy head on. You can glean from his question at the opening of Romans 11 that he feels a real sense that the faithfulness of God is at stake. After all, the majority of his kinsmen had rejected their own Messiah. According to Paul, the evidence that God had not rejected Israel in his day is demonstrated by the fact that there was a notable remnant of believing Jews (including himself) that had accepted Christ and therefore embraced the new covenant arrangement.

Dispensationalist cynics are quick to dismiss the continuity argument by alleging that for such a position to be valid it puts a significant question mark over God’s Word, integrity and faithfulness.

This reasoning results from a misconception of who and what true Israel actually is. Let us be clear: God had not cast away Israel in Paul’s day. He remained faithful to those who desired to experience His only provision for sin and uncleanness. Even though most Israelites rejected Christ, those that were foreknown by God, and were true Israelites, came to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. We should not miss this thought as we explore the remainder of his argument in Romans 9-11.

Let us look at Paul’s arguments!

Paul’s first argument is personal. He supports his contention by presenting himself as exhibit A. He volunteers himself as tangible proof of God’s continued faithfulness toward Israel. We should recognize, there is no more compelling a spiritual argument than personal testimony. Paul proves that “God has hath not cast away his people” by presenting himself as an evidence of a chosen Israeli. God had not (nor has not) completely cast away Israel, Paul was living proof of this nearly 2,000 years ago. Even though much of Israel rejected Christ, not all did. Thus, Paul is saying not all Israel rejected the Messiah.

Please note, he did not present the continued survival of national Israel as proof (which many mistakenly do today), no, but rather his own personal relationship with God. He presents his own credentials as “an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin,” as proof that God has not finished with Israel. Paul was showing that he was living evidence that God has not turned his back on all Israel.

Paul’s second argument is theological: “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew” (Romans 11:2). Paul builds upon what he has been previously teaching in Romans 8 and 9. His teaching in Romans 8:29–30 and the whole of Romans 9 set the stage for this. God in His infinite wisdom chooses who He wishes. Paul underlines his overriding argument in Romans 9:18: “Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:21 sums up the whole matter succinctly: “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?”

Salvation does not emanate from man. It cannot be realized by human effort. Man can no more create his second birth than he can his first birth. It is a Sovereign act of God’s mercy. This may be humbling to the flesh, but it is so. Professor R. Scott Clark asks: “Has God rejected his people? No, the elect are His people and all the elect will be saved … God’s election of some and reprobation of others are the twin facts of the history of redemption which Paul brings to bear on the question of ‘Who is the Israel of God?’”

Even Dispensationalist John McArthur agrees with this. “God didn’t set His people aside, He foreknew them. Notice the term ‘His people, whom He foreknew’ … Foreknowledge in the Bible has to do with predetermined love relationship … Foreknowledge, scripturally, has to do with God’s predetermination to love … This word frequently implies the intimacy of a binding love relationship in its simplest and purest form. And thus it is used in terms of the foreknowledge of God … God has not cast away His people whom He predetermined to have a love relationship with. He has not set aside Israel, and He shows how He always has a remnant. Verse 5: ‘At this present time there is a remnant’” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 1).

Paul’s third argument is historic. He presents Elijah’s day where there was a very small remnant of true Israelites (7,000 in number) as support for the fact that God always has a faithful people who remain in covenant arrangement with their Lord. This proved that his day was not unique or unprecedented at all. McArthur adds: “There are only selected ones of faith who are the true Israel. God always in all Israel’s history had a small remnant that was His elect. In Elijah’s time there were only 7,000 who hadn't bowed to Baal” (Is God finished with Israel? Part 1).

You comment too much.

This is how false doctrine is created.

The right way to comment is post alot of verses and let them speak for themselves like I do.

I don't talk anyone into trying to redefine the actual words like you do.

You must also think these guys were preterists, huh?...


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[Truther]

Any Bible student that is familiar with both the Old Testament and the New Testament will know that Jesus didn’t come to lower the pole on most spiritual subjects, He actually highered it. You look at what constitutes murder, or fornication in the New Testament and it is a lot higher than the Old Testament. When it comes to the commitment within marriage, it is highered to one loving partner.

When it comes to service, it involves total surrender.

Mar 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.
Mar 12:42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.
Mar 12:43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
Mar 12:44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Jesus said here, and I will read it in the NKJV:

44 … she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

What was He getting at here?

They gave up their surplus, she gave other poverty.

The Lord was giving the disciples an important spiritual lesson here, demonstrating that giving in the New Testament era should not be limited to 10%. This widow didn’t merely give 10% as was her duty, she gave all.

These 2 mites were the smallest denomination of coins in Israel, but they were all she had.

Hers was a true sacrifice; the rich had not begun to give to the level of her sacrifice.

What about the rich young ruler?

Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21:

20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.

Matthew adds a little bit more unto the story in Matthew 19:20: “All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?”

This story gives us a glimpse into his thinking. He was putting his confident in his own good works, but he still couldn’t find peace or an assurance. He knew there had to be more to it. There are many like him!

Back to verse 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.

It says “he went away sorrowful.”

Now, I’m going to say this: this man probably even tithed.

Jesus got right to the heart of this man’s problem, as He does. This man was guilty of covetousness. He loved his riches more than Jesus. The option was this: “follow me” or follow riches and fame.

The sad thing is, hell will be full of many similar religious zealots that foolishly trusted upon their “own righteousness.” They talked the talk but never walked the walk.

Jesus hit him with a sucker punch, one commandment that he didn’t keep – the 10th commandment: “Thou shalt not covet.” Jesus knows how to get right to the heart of the matter. He knows how to get to the stumbling block that is stopping you being real for God.

Another New Testament example for the cheapskates that refuse to give 10% of their income to the Lord can be found in Acts 4. There we see the early church pattern.

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

They entrusted the management of all their possessions to the spiritual leaders of the assembly.

One preacher asked: “Why is it when Zacchaeus got saved, the first thing he wanted to do was start giving. Yet today, people say they get saved & don’t?”

Peter Marshall: “Give according to your income lest God make your income according to your giving.”

Who is your priest you give you tithes to, to get it to Jesus?

 

[WPM]

You comment too much.

This is how false doctrine is created.

The right way to comment is post alot of verses and let them speak for themselves like I do.

I don't talk anyone into trying to redefine the actual words like you do.

You must also think these guys were preterists, huh?...


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

It is pointless engaging with you. You refuse to address and accept the biblical evidence. It's a scripture that refutes your beliefs. I refer you back to the evidence that you avoided.

 

[Truther]

Are you saying that the way that the New Testament church remembers the cross is by slitting the throat of innocent animals? Where in the New Testament does it say that "the sacrifices depicted to be reinstated in the future BY GOD, are a continuing memorial of the death of Jesus"? It seems like you are inventing your own theology to support your heresy.

No, the NT church had a feast as the Jews were sacrificing animals.

Can't you read?

Now, the NT feast is nowhere found after the return of Christ but the sacrifices will be reinstated.

That bugs you?

You are not into memorials?

 

[WPM]

Who is your priest you give you tithes to, to get it to Jesus?

This subject normally gets under the skin of covetous people, cheapskates and thieves. You totally avoided all of the Scripture and all of the points I made. You have to.

 

[Truther]

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1. I was a bad guy.
2. Then I confessed my sins and received Him.
3. Then He forgave my sins, cleansed me from all unrighteousness, saved me, and made me a good guy.

Explain how bad guys can skip step 2.

Okay, so the bad Jews cannot be saved according to Jer 31 in Israel today, but only the good ones?

Or,

Are they in the same situation as you were?

 

[Truther]

It is pointless engaging with you. You refuse to address and accept the biblical evidence. It's a scripture that refutes your beliefs. I refer you back to the evidence that you avoided.

No, look at how much you comment on a teency portion of Rom 11 and compare it to mine.

Are you a used car salesman on the side?

 

[WPM]

No, the NT church had a feast as the Jews were sacrificing animals.

Can't you read?

Now, the NT feast is nowhere found after the return of Christ but the sacrifices will be reinstated.

That bugs you?

You are not into memorials?

The New Testament repeatedly tells us that the animal sacrifices (the shadow) have been removed through Christ's one all-sufficient sacrifice at Calvary (the substance) and therefore rendered these rites obsolete. Premillers try to revive the old covenant with its innate ordinances, practices and offices that God has eternally removed, bringing them into direct competition with God’s final sacrifice for sin – the Lord Jesus Christ. They marvel at the thought of a rebuilt temple in our day. They suggest that the restoration of the Old Testament arrangement would serve as a reminder of the cross. However, the only remembrance relating to Christ’s death that God accepts is the only one instituted by the Lord to remember His death since the cross – it is the Lord's table. Is it not suffice?

Where in Scripture anywhere (Old Testament or New Testament) does it teach that there will be animal sacrifices of the innocent re-introduced as memorials in order to remember the work of Christ on the cross?

 

[Truther]

This subject really gets under the skin of covetous people, cheapskates and thieves. He totally avoided all of the scripture and all of the points I made. You have to.

Who is your priest/mediator to get your tithes to Jesus after the order of Melchisedek?

 

[Truther]

The New Testament repeatedly tells us that the animal sacrifices (the shadow) have been removed through Christ's one all-sufficient sacrifice at Calvary (the substance) and therefore rendered these rites obsolete. Premillers try to revive the old covenant with its innate ordinances, practices and offices that God has eternally removed, bringing them into direct competition with God’s final sacrifice for sin – the Lord Jesus Christ. They marvel at the thought of a rebuilt temple in our day. They suggest that the restoration of the Old Testament arrangement would serve as a reminder of the cross. However, the only remembrance relating to Christ’s death that God accepts is the only one instituted by the Lord to remember His death since the cross – it is the Lord's table. Is it not suffice?

Where in Scripture anywhere (Old Testament or New Testament) does it teach that there will be animal sacrifices of the innocent re-introduced as memorials in order to remember the work of Christ on the cross?

Has the whole Law been removed for saints or just portions of it?

 

[Truther]

Is this speaking to gentiles or Jews?....


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[Truther]

Are the 10 commandments(death ministry) also done away for saints and sinners or just saints only?...



6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:...

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.