The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

[Truther]

Not fake, conditional. Let the Bible speak for itself.

Then please interpret Ezekiel 45, LINE BY LINE, so I can know exactly what it is trying to tell me spiritually.

Preterists take a step waaay back and say it is saying such and such in a nutshell.

They are baffled if they try to interpret it line by line, proving they are frauds.

 

[WPM]

Correct, Hebrews 8 is about the new covenant to future ISRAEL/JUDAH, not you or I.

Hebrews 10:15-17 is our pre-inclusion.

that is all we get until the return of Christ.

And all this time you thought God abandoned His covenant to the fathers concerning their descendants to posess the land and gave it to the NT church.

The disciples knew better than that, preterist....


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


....you see preterist, it is not for you to know either.

What you quote as evidence for your imaginary future kingdom is just a mere question from the disciples. That is it! For the record, the disciples said a lot and asked a lot that was fool-hearty that Jesus had to correct or rebuke. He did so here. But you totally reject His teaching. You defer to what you have been taught. This shows how totally bereft you are of any NT support for your beliefs. You are clearly married to what you have been taught, rather than what the Scripture teach here on this.

The most that we could take from this is that they may indeed have anticipated the introduction of a parochial, territorial and old-covenant-type physical kingdom. But that is far from a foregone conclusion. We can only, at best, speculate on that. Even if that was their assumption, that in no way proves that it was a legitimate hope. The disciples were often misguided in their expectations and narrow-minded in their tribal aspirations. They frequently saw no further than the borders of Israel. We see that played in the book of Acts, with their reluctance to advance the Gospel to the Gentiles.

It is hard to read the motives and intention of the question. Many times, the disciples were not getting the full meaning of Christ’s teaching. He sent His whole ministry correcting and re-directing them. So it could have been a patriotic desire. But Christ’s response nails it. That is what is key, not the disciples’ question. Premils tend to ignore the context and response and just talk about one verse in this narrative. That is because it suits their theology.

Regardless, it doesn’t really matter what the disciples thought, we need to rather ascertain what Christ thought and taught. We should remember: that this question came in the midst of a spiritual discourse about the kingdom of God arriving in power at Pentecost. Christ’s reply is key. It is powerful. It is direct. It nails the literalist’s interpretation of this in a carnal earthly sense.

The one thing they do not mention (or does Christ or any NT writer teach) is some sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium.

"Memorial sacrifices"?

You have still to show us any Scripture in the OT or NT (including Rev 20) that teaches this theory of animal sacrifices being restarted in the presence of Jesus in a future millennium after the second coming as "memorial sacrifices." You do not because you cannot. It is obviously an invention of your imagination.

 

[WPM]

Then please interpret Ezekiel 45, LINE BY LINE, so I can know exactly what it is trying to tell me spiritually.

Preterists take a step waaay back and say it is saying such and such in a nutshell.

They are baffled if they try to interpret it line by line, proving they are frauds.

LOL. You can barely put 3 lines together in response to the many detailed Amil rebuttals and then you have the brass neck to tell me to "interpret Ezekiel 45, LINE BY LINE." No chance! You will never tell me what to do. You cannot even answer simple questions during discussion. You "interpret Ezekiel 45, LINE BY LINE" first. Let us see your ability to actually study effectively.

 

[WPM]

The scripture needs to be dug deeper?

Unhappy with it's first glance?

Need mass commentary to soothe your presuppositions?

It must mean something else?

That describes preterists to the t.

Yes, Amils do believe in deep study, something you do not seem to have the capacity to do. We make no apology for that. It is better than running with what you have been taught.

 

[Truther]

What you quote as evidence for your imaginary future kingdom is just a mere question from the disciples. That is it! For the record, the disciples said a lot and asked a lot that was fool-hearty that Jesus had to correct or rebuke. He did so here. But you totally reject His teaching. You defer to what you have been taught. This shows how totally bereft you are of any NT support for your beliefs. You are clearly married to what you have been taught, rather than what the Scripture teach here on this.

The most that we could take from this is that they may indeed have anticipated the introduction of a parochial, territorial and old-covenant-type physical kingdom. But that is far from a foregone conclusion. We can only, at best, speculate on that. Even if that was their assumption, that in no way proves that it was a legitimate hope. The disciples were often misguided in their expectations and narrow-minded in their tribal aspirations. They frequently saw no further than the borders of Israel. We see that played in the book of Acts, with their reluctance to advance the Gospel to the Gentiles.

It is hard to read the motives and intention of the question. Many times, the disciples were not getting the full meaning of Christ’s teaching. He sent His whole ministry correcting and re-directing them. So it could have been a patriotic desire. But Christ’s response nails it. That is what is key, not the disciples’ question. Premils tend to ignore the context and response and just talk about one verse in this narrative. That is because it suits their theology.

Regardless, it doesn’t really matter what the disciples thought, we need to rather ascertain what Christ thought and taught. We should remember: that this question came in the midst of a spiritual discourse about the kingdom of God arriving in power at Pentecost. Christ’s reply is key. It is powerful. It is direct. It nails the literalist’s interpretation of this in a carnal earthly sense.

The one thing they do not mention (or does Christ or any NT writer teach) is some sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium.

"Memorial sacrifices"?

You have still to show us any Scripture in the OT or NT (including Rev 20) that teaches this theory of animal sacrifices being restarted in the presence of Jesus in a future millennium after the second coming as "memorial sacrifices." You do not because you cannot. It is obviously an invention of your imagination.

Imaginary future kingdom?...

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power....


Did Jesus say that?

Did he say it was imaginary, or do you imagine he said that?

 

[Truther]

LOL. You can barely put 3 lines together in response to the many detailed Amil rebuttals and then you have the brass neck to tell me to "interpret Ezekiel 45, LINE BY LINE." No chance! You will never tell me what to do. You cannot even answer simple questions during discussion. You "interpret Ezekiel 45, LINE BY LINE" first. Let us see your ability to actually study effectively.

Let me get you started...

What does this mean spiritually?....

45 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the Lord, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.

...c'mon preterist, interpret it.

 

[Truther]

Yes, Amils do believe in deep study, something you do not seem to have the capacity to do. We make no apology for that. It is better than running with what you have been taught.

I simply take the Bible literally regarding future prophecy.

You preterists offer endless, open ended interpretations via word searches in your concordance.

You know good and well that this event has not happened yet...


Ezekiel 37:21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.



....but, you guys somehow are trying to figure out how to make it go away.

 

[WPM]

Imaginary future kingdom?...

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power....


Did Jesus say that?

Did he say it was imaginary, or do you imagine he said that?

The two verses that go before Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) support the idea of a spiritual kingdom. The two verses that follow Acts 1:6 (relating to the disciples’ question) show the Lord giving a spiritual response to their question.

Before the question came Christ was exhorting the disciples on the need for patience as they awaited the empowerment of the Holy Ghost to take the Gospel out to “the whosoever.” Everything about the context is spiritual. The Lord was stating “that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence” (Acts 1:4-5).

Surely an unbiased look at these introductory comments would give us insight into what the Lord was teaching and what actually provoked the question that followed it. Undoubtedly the Lord was giving spiritual instruction about a spiritual kingdom that would shortly come with great power and fire? This is not territorial language.

What is “the Promise of the Father” here? Is it a material physical kingdom or is it a spiritual heavenly kingdom? Is it a millennial kingdom similar to this evil age, filled with death and rebellion, or was He speaking of the power of the Holy Ghost that would fall upon the disciples to empower them to bring the good news of Christ to all nations – starting in Jerusalem?

Evidently, Christ was referring to the day of Pentecost where the Church received its Holy Ghost baptism of fire. The whole discourse here is spiritual and revolved around the development of this spiritual kingdom subsequent to Christ’s ascension. Jesus confirms this again in Luke 24:46-49: “Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power (or dunamis) from on high.”

The promise of the Father was the baptism of the Holy Ghost, which was a power from on high that endued them for service.

Jesus had previously said to the disciples in Mark 9:1: “Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power (or dunamis).”

Christ was speaking of Pentecost. He said the disciples would not die until they had “seen the kingdom come with power” – referring here the Church’s baptism of fire to win a lost world. It didn’t mean they would die when that happened.

The disciples then interjected with a question: “Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?”

Premillennialists attribute much extravagant, extensive and grandiose detail to this simple question. They build a whole school of thought pertaining to a supposed period after the second coming out of this basic inquiry. They call it a millennial age and make it a Jewish-orientated kingdom. Nevertheless, and significantly, New Testament Scripture knows nothing of such an old-covenant-type Jewish age. That has been reduced to the history books.

What Premillennialists fail to see is: there is no mention of a future period after the second coming in the question, neither is there any intimation of that. There is not even any mention of the second coming, never mind a belief in a thousand-year reign of Christ on a still corrupt earth! No one could derive such a doctrine from this straightforward question. It would have to be taught elsewhere for it to enjoy veracity.

Regardless, it doesn’t really matter what the disciples thought, we need to rather ascertain what Christ thought and taught. We should remember: that this question came in the midst of a spiritual discourse about the kingdom of God arriving in power at Pentecost. Christ’s reply is key. It is powerful. It is direct. It nails the literalist’s interpretation of this in a carnal earthly sense.

The one thing they do not mention (or does Christ or any NT writer teach) is some sin-curse goat-infested death-blighted future millennium.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

This post is way over the line. You are implying that you think WPM is not saved and has not received the Holy Spirit. Who are you to judge someone else like this? Do not judge or you will be judged with the same measure that you are judging others.

You say "God Bless" to someone right after insulting them by implying that they have not yet received the Holy Spirit?

Suggesting for someone to pray to our FATHER God and ask for the Holy Spirit should not be taken as an insult.
Are NON-Trinitarians baptized into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? Example: I have been to JW baptisms and they dunk the person in the water and say nothing - no words at all. There was not even a verbal confirmation of belief by the one being baptized. No questions were asked such as, "Do you believe in Jesus, that he died for your sins and rose on the third day according to the scriptures? ____ Do you confess yours sins and ask for His forgiveness and agree to commit your life to Him, put Him first, obey and follow Him for life? ___ I therefore baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." None of that was said, just an informal ceremonial dunk in the water, as if somehow a spiritual event was taking place, with the assumption in their minds ... Jehovah knows why we are here ... we don't have to say anything.
Now, that is just an example of 1 Non-Trinitarian religion, I haven't been to Unitarian baptisms, don't know what is said, but I would imagine they are not baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I have to bring up the point that aside from you not believing that Christ is fully God AND do not think the Holy Spirit is a person and fully God as well, there is a problem with that.
The Holy Spirit is a person, He has to be. He teaches, guides, counsels us, leads, reveals all truth, listens to our prayers, speaks, is all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent, comforts us, bears witness to Christ, glorifies Christ, is sent by Christ and the Father, He gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us, justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us.
He is God who dwells in the believer, not a force. It is important that once the Christian believes in Jesus, to ask for the Holy Spirit. The baptism of the Holy Spirit usually follows a person's belief in Christ and/or water baptism but not always. I do believe that some follow Christ and the written word, but do not have the Spirit. And since the Word is spiritually discerned, some have at best a superficial understanding of who God is.
Growth in the Church is evidence that the Holy Spirit is at work converting and growing the Body. If in some Christian religions, we see little growth over long periods of time - something is missing. The Holy Spirit is not growing that church because of false doctrines. They may be saved, but their churches remain stagnant. 8 million JWs knockimg on doors for humdreds of millions of hours per year and only seeing small numbers trickle in is proof that the Spirit is not behind their work. After over 120 years, their numbers are pitiful. In 120 years Christianity has grown from 500 million to 2.7 billion - that's growth. That is the work of God.
So again I say, prayer foe the Holy Spirit, be baptized in the name of rhe Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Here is a good teaching if the Trinity if you care to listen:

 

[WPM]

I simply take the Bible literally regarding future prophecy.

LOL. Do not even go there! That is not true! The opposite is the truth. You can't even give me one single Scripture to support your theory of Jesus resurrecting bloody animal sacrifices in the future to as memorial sacrifices. That's because it is an invention of your mind. It is not true.

 

[covenantee]

You mean this...

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Really means this?...


34 And they shall teach DELETE every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for 3000 souls shall know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

You mean this:
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Doesn't mean this?:
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

 

[covenantee]

You think the epistles were for "certain" or "special" saints, and not all of them.

You have no business reading or applying them because they are not directed to you(per preterist ideology).

You can't comprehend, so leave it for those who can.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It has already come to pass.

You refuse to accept it.

Very poor dispensationalism.

You should be ashamed.

No it hasn't. I live in teh real world, not an allegorical symbolic planet.

Besides why should I take you at your word, when you are so glib about taking God at His Word.

 

[covenantee]

No it hasn't. I live in teh real world, not an allegorical symbolic planet.

Besides why should I take you at your word, when you are so glib about taking God at His Word.

You live in a world of dispensational delusion and denial, claiming to believe God's Word literally, but denying the literal fulfillment of Jewish genetic ubiquity.

What a sorry sad dispensationalist you make.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

A time that is yet to happen? Try to tell that to Jesus.

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

Jesus quoted Zechariah 12:10 here and applied it to the actual ones who pierced His side. So, you are wrong to say that Zechariah 12:10 is yet to happen since that contradicts the timing that Jesus gave to that verse.

Whoops my bad! I meant Zech 13:8-9. I apologize for my mental slip.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

BUT:

8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.

9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

This has not happened yet.

Some Jews doing so is not fulfilment of Scriptures.

Gods prophetic utterances are not like horse shoes where close enough is good enough!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You live in a world of dispensational delusion and denial, claiming to believe God's Word literally, but denying the literal fulfillment of Jewish genetic ubiquity.

What a sorry sad dispensationalist you make.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Lying again !!! TSK TSK TSK child, you should get spanked for that.

I never denied Jewish genetic ubiquity. You are a liar and I am calling you out for that!!!!!!

I do not believe everyone is a jew as you claimed and you h ave failed to provide a scintilla of evidence to support you claim.

Subtly altering the statement just shows a deceiving heart on you rpart!

I am proud of myself in the Lord!

I will give you one shot to apologize for lying- or else I am through with your petulance before I ignore you on another thread!

YOu are backsliding into your old habits.

 

[covenantee]

I never denied Jewish genetic ubiquity.

I do not believe everyone is a jew

It is to laugh. You have no idea what you believe.

Nothing but continued predictable dispensational delusional denialism. A literal dispensational fulfillment handed to you on a dispensational platter, and you deny it.

Little wonder that dispensationalism is increasingly viewed as nothing but abject nonsense by those returning to "the faith which was once delivered unto the saints." (Jude 3)

I am proud of myself in the Lord!

The Lord certainly isn't proud of you.

 

[Heart2Soul]

As usual when a thread topic continues too long it is no longer being discussed. So as it has come to a complete lack of edifying or exhorting one another... rather it had become two sides slinging insult after insult back and forth with each other.
SMH.....