The beliefs of the early Chiliasts were the antithesis of modern Premil

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WPM

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It is particularly challenging at the best of times trying to comprehend the various vicissitudes of the early Church teachings. Most of that is because we try to examine their theology through the lens of our modern theological norms. What adds to the complexity and perplexity is the fact that these ancient writings can be quite ambiguous, inconsistent and illogical at times. That is why the overall subject requires much deep, diligent and laborious study expended upon it in order to put all the multifaceted theological dots together accurately. It is only then that we can properly and precisely discern the ancient landscape, see a definite pattern and establish where these ancient writers were coming from. What may surprise many, as they survey the early religious map, is that there was a remarkable commonality of thinking across the eschatological spectrum in regard to their expectation of the nature of the world to come. In fact, whatever angle you look at it from, the prevailing beliefs of the early Chiliasts and early Amillennialists were similar on many core issues.

Both main positions believed that:

· Sin and sinners will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Mortals and mortality will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Satan and his demons will be destroyed at the second coming.

The future millennium the early Chiliasts anticipated was a perfect unspoiled arrangement devoid of the awful results of the Fall. This is altogether different to that which is advocated by modern-day Premillennialists, who see all the bondage of corruption continuing after Jesus comes in all His majestic glory. Sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, and Satan and his minions can all be found in the Premillennialist age to come. In fact, these increase gradually over the course of their millennium to the degree that Satan is able to mobilize a gargantuan army of followers to surround Christ and the saints before the great white throne.

So, if early Chiliast theology was in fact as we describe it (and it was), when then did they believe Jesus would reign over His enemies? After all, modern-day Premillennialists across-the-board teach that that occurs in their future millennium.

The ancient Patriarchs on all sides taught that Christ was currently reigning over His enemies in this existing age. They held that there was nothing that was not under His sovereign power. They saw that rule coming to an end at the return of Christ (which they understood as “the consummation”), when all of His enemies would be finally and eternally destroyed. This is another evidence of the similarity between them and early Amillennialists.

The early Chiliasts anticipation was completely different to that which modern-day Premils hold today. Early Chiliasts envisioned a future millennial age that would be devoid of the wicked, corruption and sin. We have many explicit statements from them that describe an all-consummating return of Christ. Ironically, many of the Scriptures that modern Premils present to justify the bondage of corruption continuing on the future earth are used by ancient Chiliasts to relate to the kingly reign of Christ in our age and the ongoing great commission. We have statement after statement that show a victorious Christ exercising supreme sovereign authority – both in heaven and on earth – ever since His coronation, after defeating every enemy of man and God. Christ is king. He rules over both creation and His new creation. Dr. Stephen Seamands submits: “The early Christians believed that when Jesus ascended into heaven he had been installed and exalted as King, reigning as Lord of all.”

As we analyze the evidence, we see many passages that are traditionally used by Premillennialists today to support their doctrine, and then contrast these with how the ancients viewed them, we see a very different mind-set and an alternative application to what is widely accepted within Millennialist circles. Messianic passages like Psalm 2, Psalm 110, Isaiah 2, Micah 4 and Isaiah 66 that most commentators agree relate to the kingly reign of the anointed One during the Messianic period are applied to the here-and-now rather than a millennial period after the second coming. This is not insignificant.

The ancient Chiliasts taught a realized theology. They saw the First Advent as the defeat of Satan and his minions. They taught that Christ vanquished every opponent of righteousness through His sinless life, His atoning death and His glorious resurrection. These early writers recognized, that regardless of the exploits of Israel’s ancient leaders (prophets, priests, kings, and judges,), they were imperfect and simply preparatory to the coming perfect prophet, priest, king, and judge who was the eternal personification of peace. They believed and taught that the Messiah brought peace to His subjects after His great conquest. They equated the peace described in Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 with that which believers experience when they encounter Christ during the intra-Advent period.

They believed that this supernatural peace comes through the success of the Gospel going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. The evidence of this was said to be seen in the Gentiles turning to Christ in significant numbers. Like modern Amillennialists and Postmillennialists, they had a very positive estimation of the accomplishments of the great commission upon the Gentile inhabitants of the globe. That was because they were seeing the fruit of the Gospel expanse to village after village, town after town, city after city, and nation after nation, with their own eyes.

Early Church Chiliast writers viewed this current age as the glorious Messianic reign of Christ over His enemies. This was the triumphant result of His earthly labors. They were consistent in connecting the reign of Christ upon His heavenly throne over the His enemies (since His coronation) with the going forth of the Gospel to the nations through the great commission. One is seen to facilitate the other. These early Millennialists believed that Christ’s enemies were now under completely subjection to His will. This in turn facilitated the free flow of the Gospel out to the nations. In their writings, there is absolutely no doubt about the starting point, and finishing point, of Christ’s Messianic reign. It began at the First Advent and ends at the Second Advent.
 
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WPM

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Justin Martyr Asia Minor (now Turkey) (AD 100-166)

Justin is very strong and consistent when it comes to his teaching on the subject of the current kingship of Christ and Him reigning in the heavenlies over His enemies. Justin quotes Psalm 110:1 to support his belief that Christ is currently ruling. His teaching is representative of that of early Millennialists.

The Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit of prophecy; and that the Lord, the Father of all, has brought Him again from the earth, setting Him at His own right hand, until He makes His enemies His footstool; which indeed happens from the time that our Lord Jesus Christ ascended to heaven, after He rose again from the dead, the times now running on to their consummation …The words, then, which were spoken by David, are these: “The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send the rod of Thy strength out of Sion: rule Thou also in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee shall be, in the day, the chief of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints. From the womb, before the morning star, have I begotten Thee. The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent: Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord is at Thy right hand: He has crushed kings in the day of His wrath: He shall judge among the heathen, He shall fill [with] the dead bodies. He shall drink of the brook in the way; therefore shall He lift up the head” (Dialogue with Trypho - Chapter 32).​

According to Justin, Christ taking David’s throne does not refer to Him sitting on some long-preserved literal physical seat of power in the Middle East, but rather Him assuming heavenly authority over the people of God today and fulfilling the Messianic prophecies as Israel’s true king. Justin blows apart the Jewish idea of a future temporal earthly kingdom. Everything about his beliefs is current, spiritual and heavenly. They are shown repeatedly to be occurring now in this intra-Advent period (also known as the “last days”). He saw the ascended Messiah exalted to the highest place in the universe reigning over creation at the right hand of God.

In the teaching of Justin, the rule of Christ over His enemies is ongoing. Christ reigns in majesty and glory at the right hand of majesty today over all His foes. He is indeed Lord. He is king over the kings and kingdoms of the earth. He rules over all principalities and powers, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. He exercises sovereign kingly power over all His enemies until He makes them His footstool. There is nothing that is not under his feet. What is also noticeable is that the second coming is synonymous with the “consummation.” It ushers in the end of this current fallen arrangement.

Justin also employees Psalm 2 to support his position:

He foretold the conspiracy which was formed against Christ by Herod the king of the Jews, and the Jews themselves, and Pilate, who was your governor among them, with his soldiers; and how He should be believed on by men of every race; and how God calls Him His Son, and has declared that He will subdue all His enemies under Him; and how the devils, as much as they can, strive to escape the power of God the Father and Lord of all, and the power of Christ Himself; and how God calls all to repentance before the day of judgment comes … Yet have I been set by Him a King on Zion His holy hill, declaring the decree of the Lord. The Lord said to Me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee. Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth as Thy possession. Thou shall herd them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shalt Thou dash them in pieces (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 40).​

Zion to Justin was heavenly. Jesus reigning over His enemies is absolute and current. Herod was just one example of the ongoing rule of Christ over his adversaries. The gathering in of an untold number of believers from the nations is presented as the fruit of Christ’s labors. Finally, the picture of Christ ruling with a rod of iron is shown to relate to the gathering of the wicked for judgment and their ultimate destruction – “as the vessels of a potter shalt Thou dash them in pieces.” There is no suggestion by this early writer of another 1000 years in the future where Christ would have to govern over the wicked.

Justin continues his thought, after quoting Psalm 2 in the previous chapter, he adds Psalm 96 to support his thesis:

David, intimated that Christ, after He had been crucified, should reign, and spoke as follows: “Sing to the Lord, all the earth, and day by day declare His salvation. For great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, to be feared above all the gods. For all the gods of the nations are idols of devils; but God made the heavens. Glory and praise are before His face, strength and glorying are in the habitation of His holiness. Give Glory to the Lord, the Father everlasting. Receive grace, and enter His presence, and worship in His holy courts. Let all the earth fear before His face; let it be established, and not shaken. Let them rejoice among the nations. The Lord hath reigned from the tree” (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 41).​

Justin accused the Jews of removing this last phrase from the Hebrew text, although it is difficult to see his reasoning. Notwithstanding, it shows us how passionate he was in believing about the current kingly reign of Christ over all. There is absolutely no ambiguity in the teaching of Justin. Our Savior, assumes the Davidic throne and reigns over the Davidic kingdom in this age. But this is not talking about an ethnic reign or a natural kingdom. This is a spiritual kingdom containing all the redeemed of all nations. What is more, Christ’s reign is a heavenly reign. It is a glorious reign. His reign is intra-Advent. It began at the cross. It continues until His climactic return.

He sums up his argument in the next chapter:

David uttered 1500 years before Christ became a man and was crucified; and no one of those who lived before Him, nor yet of His contemporaries, afforded joy to the Gentiles by being crucified. But our Jesus Christ, being crucified and dead, rose again, and having ascended to heaven, reigned; and by those things which were published in His name among all nations by the apostles, there is joy afforded to those who expect the immortality promised by Him. (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 42).​

Christ’s life, death, resurrection and rule are shown to facilitate the invasion of Satan’s territory, which was the Gentile nations. This portrayal depicts a triumphant Church. Here is the linkage between our Savior’s current reign and the enlightenment of the darkened Gentiles.

He continues on a similar vein:

[W]hen our Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, the rulers in heaven, under appointment of God, are commanded to open the gates of heaven, that He who is King of glory may enter in, and having ascended, may sit on the right hand of the Father until He make the enemies His footstool, as has been made manifest by another Psalm. For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory’. For every one will confess that not one of those who presided over the gates of the temple at Jerusalem would venture to say concerning Solomon, though he was so glorious a king, or concerning the ark of testimony, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ (Dialogue with Trypho - Chapter 36).​

Christ’s ascent to the throne of David was viewed as His coronation. From this moment, Christ began His Messianic rule reigning over His people and also His enemies. He was indeed viewed by Justin as the “King of glory.” He taught elsewhere:

He further states:

God the Father of all would bring Christ to heaven after He had raised Him from the dead, and would keep Him there until He has subdued His enemies the devils, and until the number of those who are foreknown by Him as good and virtuous is complete, on whose account He has still delayed the consummation – hear what was said by the prophet David. These are his words: “The Lord said unto My Lord, Sit Thou at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. The Lord shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem; and rule Thou in the midst of Thine enemies. With Thee is the government in the day of Thy power, in the beauties of Thy saints" (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 45).​

Justin taught that Jesus was fulfilling Psalm 110 right now. This Messianic period was current and ongoing. Christ was a ruling king with real power – all power. His heavenly Messianic reign is presented here to continue until “the consummation.” This mirrors the teaching of Amillennialism. It is a view that Premillennialists broadly rejects today.
 
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WPM

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Justin further taught:

And from the ninety-fifth (ninety-sixth) Psalm they have taken away this short saying of the words of David: `From the wood.' For when the passage said, `Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned from the wood, 'they have left, `Tell ye among the nations, the Lord hath reigned.' Now no one of your people has ever been said to have reigned as God and Lord among the nations, with the exception of Him only who was crucified, of whom also the Holy Spirit affirms in the same Psalm that He was raised again, and freed from [the grave] (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 73).​

Justin lifts up the uniqueness of Christ’s heavenly Messianic reign today. In his exposition, Justin confirms our Lord’s unique and unparalleled aptitude for this supreme duty. Only He could fulfil this great and lofty role. His thesis is consistent and clear. There was no ambiguity about it. He further submits:

He is to be praised and feared, and that He is the Maker of heaven and earth, who effected this salvation in behalf of the human race, who also was crucified and was dead, and who was deemed worthy by Him (God) to reign over all the earth (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 74).​

Once again, Jesus the Messiah is “deemed worthy” to “reign,” not just merely in earthly Jerusalem or over ethnic Israel, but “over all the earth” from His heavenly seat. This was a non-negotiable in early Chiliast theology. It is something that they strongly disagree with modern Premillennialism on.

Some of the early Chiliast writers employed Psalm 2 to support their linkage of the advance of the great commission with the current authority held by Christ in His exalted position of sovereign kingship. Psalm 2:6-8 supports this contention: “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” This is also backed up in the New Testament where Jesus connects the going forth to make “disciples of all nations” with His exaltation, His kingship and His exercising of all authority at the right hand of majesty on high. Christ’s authoritative declaration, “All power [or authority] is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” is seen to be the solid basis for the invasion of the nations.

Chiliasts often used Psalm 110 to support their opinion. Justin Martyr applies the fulfilment of Psalm 110:2 to this current time period and the Gospel triumph. He highlights how this was realized through the enlightenment of the ignorant Gentiles. But this was inextricably tied to the faithful earthly ministry of Christ, His defeat of sin, death, Hades and Satan, His glorious resurrection and His existing kingly reign. He taught:

That which he says, "He shall send to Thee the rod of power out of Jerusalem," is predictive of the mighty, word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere; and though death is decreed against those who teach or at all confess the name of Christ, we everywhere both embrace and teach it. And if you also read these words in a hostile spirit, ye can do no more, as I said before, than kill us; which indeed does no harm to us, but to you and all who unjustly hate us, and do not repent, brings eternal punishment by fire (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 45).​

This teaching reflects a definite realized eschatology, showing various Old Testament passages, that modern Premils would typically attribute to a future millennium, being fulfilled currently since Christ's first advent through the great commission. Instead of applying this prophecy to a millennial kingdom in the future, Justin applies Psalm 110:2 to the intra-Advent period. Justin expressly relates this to insists that the going forth of the law out of Zion is “predictive of the mighty, word, which His apostles, going forth from Jerusalem, preached everywhere.” Modern Premils would be surprised (and even disappointed) at Justin’s linkage of the Hebrew eschatological prophecies to the Church’s victorious expanse of the nations with the Gospel. But it is what it is!

The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool. He shall send forth a rod of power over Jerusalem, and it shall rule in the midst of Thine enemies … our Jesus, who has not yet come in glory, has sent into Jerusalem a rod of power, namely, the word of calling and repentance [meant] for all nations (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 83).​

Justin is very clear in associating the going forth of God’s “rod of power” with the preaching of the Gospel to the nations with Jesus’ heavenly reign upon His heavenly throne over the His enemies. This is the guarantee of its success. Christ is overseeing the great commission. The invasion of the devil’s kingdom on earth occurs through the enlightening power of the Gospel. Today, though Satan still has great influence over the nations of the world, he cannot prevent God’s elect from coming into His everlasting kingdom. The Gentiles are now without excuse. The light has been shining for 2000 years.

And when the Spirit of prophecy speaks as predicting things that are to come to pass, He speaks in this way: “For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” And that it did so come to pass, we can convince you. For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God; and we who formerly used to murder one another do not only now refrain from making war upon our enemies (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 39).​

Justin Martyr applied the fulfilment of Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 to this current time period. He understands these passages to be telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects through the widespread preaching of the Gospel. According to this early Chiliast, Messiah would come and bring peace to the nations. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this through His disciples. The Gentiles would come to Christ and be eternally changed through embracing the truth of God. The peace that would come with the kingdom was spiritual peace not physical peace marked by the cessation of violence. The learning war no more refers to what happens when one enters the kingdom.

[T]he Gentiles would repent of the evil in which they led erring lives, when they heard the doctrine preached by His apostles from Jerusalem, and which they learned through them, suffer me to show you by quoting a short statement from the prophecy of Micah, one of the twelve [minor prophets] … (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 109).​

Justin then supports his statement by quoting Micah 4:1-5. This vision of Micah is interpreted by this writer to be a pictorial vision of the new covenant order, and the last days. It is understood to be a metaphorical description of the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel.
 

WPM

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Elsewhere, he argues similar:

There is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will—as was declared above—with knives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come, let us go to the light of the Lord; for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves together at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people (The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 24).​

This is applied to the Gospel light going out to the Gentiles (ethnos). Before the cross they were in darkness; now they are enlightened. The answer to darkness every time is shown to be light. The people of God are marked by the fact that they have experienced “peace.”

[T]he word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,— our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage, —and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified; and sitting each under his vine, i.e., each man possessing his own married wife (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 110).​

Those of all nations that enter into salvation are seen here by the ancient writer to exchange the weapons of war for the tools of peace. Peace is said to be the tangible fruit of encountering Christ. This is what the kingdom of God embodies. Justin Martyr argues that Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 are not speaking of physical conflict and external persecution emanating from outside the kingdom upon the saints, but the internal peaceful conditions that eternally exist within the kingdom of God. The true believer that has been united to Christ and truly resides within this kingdom ceases from fighting with the arm of flesh any more. Ancient foes unite in love. The weapons of war – the swords and spears – are metaphorically converted into the tools of peacetime – the plowshares and pruninghooks – (Isaiah 2:4, Micah 4:3).

Of course, many trip up with passages like Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 with their literalist mind-set. They fail to see that peace with God is not some purely abstract earthly thing. It would be wrong to understand or interpret the prophetic words in both of these texts in a natural literal carnal sense. It is not referring to the cessation of physical violence. The termination of war or military conflict does not constitute true peace in God’s eyes.
 

WPM

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Here are two recent posts that I noticed that reinforce how diverse the beliefs of the early Chiliasts were compared with modern Premil.

Preterists beware...

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.



LIFE IN THE MILLENNIUM

The plagues through the tribulation and the great earthquake that caused the cities of the nations to fall, will cause such great devastation upon the earth that civilization as we know it will cease. No technology, no fuel, no food production, no medical facilities, no businesses of any kind, all will have crumbled, obliterated. There will be only few people upon the earth after the plagues, mass killings and persecutions.

Life in the millennium will have to start from the basics - agriculture and working together in family groups. There will be no more wars, so the weapons will be made into farm implements.

` They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nations shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.` (Micah 4: 3).
 
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Taken

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Both main positions believed that:

· Sin and sinners will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Mortals and mortality will be destroyed at the second coming.
· Satan and his demons will be destroyed at the second coming.

The future millennium the early Chiliasts anticipated was a perfect unspoiled arrangement devoid of the awful results of the Fall. This is altogether different to that which is advocated by modern-day Premillennialists, who see all the bondage of corruption continuing after Jesus comes in all His majestic glory. Sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, and Satan and his minions can all be found in the Premillennialist age to come. In fact, these increase gradually over the course of their millennium to the degree that Satan is able to mobilize a gargantuan army of followers to surround Christ and the saints before the great white throne.

So, if early Chiliast theology was in fact as we describe it (and it was), when then did they believe Jesus would reign over His enemies? After all, modern-day Premillennialists across-the-board teach that that occurs in their future millennium.

As we analyze the evidence...

What evidence?
You presented an opinion.
 

Taken

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No. Hard historic evidence.

So, if early Chiliast theology was in fact as we describe it (and it was), when then did they believe Jesus would reign over His enemies?

After all, modern-day Premillennialists across-the-board teach that that occurs in their future millennium. [/QUOTE]



Premillennialism
, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesuswill physically return to the Earth (the Second Coming) before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace.

How do you conclude a 1,000 years of peace to mean....
Jesus reigning over His enemies?

 
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WPM

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So, if early Chiliast theology was in fact as we describe it (and it was), when then did they believe Jesus would reign over His enemies?

After all, modern-day Premillennialists across-the-board teach that that occurs in their future millennium.



Premillennialism
, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesuswill physically return to the Earth (the Second Coming) before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace.

How do you conclude a 1,000 years of peace to mean....
Jesus reigning over His enemies?

It is a supposed golden age blighted with the wicked and wickedness, dying and crying, decay and disease, Satan and his demons. The Chiliasts envisioned a perfect new age, like Amils.

According to your end-time views, does Psalm 2:1-12, Psalm 110:1-6, Isaiah 2:2-5, Micah 4:1-5 and Isaiah 66:1 apply to the here-and-now or your future millennium?
 
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Zao is life

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What obsession? About which portion of scripture?

Oh.

V- e-r-y lengthy thesis upon v-e-r-y lengthy thesis written about one subject and one subject only :)

Even though it matters not today what myriad of beliefs existed in the early church (because it's only the scriptures that prove any position true or false, not their opinions based on their interpretation of the scriptures), it would be interesting, nevertheless, if we don't have to read an encyclopedia, filed with, and mixed with, barrels of your own opinions and assumptions.

Try shorten it, staying rather with the Bible and what's written in the Bible than going to the volumes of books written about the opinions of others (please).
 
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Taken

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Premillennialism
, in Christian eschatology, is the belief that Jesuswill physically return to the Earth (the Second Coming) before the Millennium, a literal thousand-year golden age of peace.

How do you conclude a 1,000 years of peace to mean....
Jesus reigning over His enemies?

It is a supposed golden age blighted with the wicked and wickedness, dying and crying, decay and disease, Satan and his demons.

Seems you have that confused with NOW, not the millennial reign.

The Chiliasts envisioned a perfect new age, like Amils.

The millennial has mortals in their kingdoms/nations/ their kings,
and immortals with the Lord in His Kingdom, He is KING,
and VOID of Satan.

According to your end-time views, does Psalm 2:1-12, Psalm 110:1-6, Isaiah 2:2-5, Micah 4:1-5 and Isaiah 66:1 apply to the here-and-now or your future millennium?

Nah, I am not going to look up, for you 23 verses, quote them and address each verses’ Applicability to now or the millennium.

As long as there ARE mortals on Earth, mortals body’s will be born, live, die. Freewill to believe or not still applies. Freewill to confess belief or not still applies.
 
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WPM

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Seems you have that confused with NOW, not the millennial reign.



The millennial has mortals in their kingdoms/nations/ their kings,
and immortals with the Lord in His Kingdom, He is KING,
and VOID of Satan.



Nah, I am not going to look up, for you 23 verses, quote them and address each verses’ Applicability to now or the millennium.

As long as there ARE mortals on Earth, mortals body’s will be born, live, die. Freewill to believe or not still applies. Freewill to confess belief or not still applies.

Do you believe there will be mortals on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sin on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sinners on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sickness on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be decay on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be corruption on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be rebellion on your millennial earth?

Nah, I am not going to look up, for you 23 verses, quote them and address each verses’ Applicability to now or the millennium.

As long as there ARE mortals on Earth, mortals body’s will be born, live, die. Freewill to believe or not still applies. Freewill to confess belief or not still applies.

I asked you a simple question that requires a yes or no answer: according to your end-time views, does Psalm 2:1-12, Psalm 110:1-6, Isaiah 2:2-5, Micah 4:1-5 and Isaiah 66:1 apply to the here-and-now or your future millennium?
 

Truther

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Here are two recent posts that I noticed that reinforce how diverse the beliefs of the early Chiliasts were compared with modern Premil.
The Millenial reign of Christ is the most descriptive prophecy in the entire Bible.

God is determined to set it up for his only begotten son.

God wants to rule the world through His son and by His saints.
 
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Taken

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Do you believe there will be sin on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be sinners on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be sickness on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be decay on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be corruption on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be rebellion on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.

No, regarding the Lands of The Lords KINGDOM.


I asked you a simple question that requires

Me looking up 23 verses to establish your questions. Uh No, I will not.

a yes or no answer: according to your end-time views, does Psalm 2:1-12, Psalm 110:1-6, Isaiah 2:2-5, Micah 4:1-5 and Isaiah 66:1 apply to the here-and-now or your future millennium?
 

WPM

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The Millenial reign of Christ is the most descriptive prophecy in the entire Bible.

God is determined to set it up for his only begotten son.

God wants to rule the world through His son and by His saints.

Do you believe there will be mortals on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sin on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sinners on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be sickness on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be decay on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be corruption on your millennial earth?
Do you believe there will be rebellion on your millennial earth?
 

WPM

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Do you believe there will be sin on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be sinners on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be sickness on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be decay on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be corruption on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.
Do you believe there will be rebellion on your millennial earth? Yes, portions.

You need to fix your HTML.

Well, this above is the complete opposite to what the early Chiliast believed. They held to a perfect new earth, like Amils.
 

WPM

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What obsession? About which portion of scripture?

Oh.

V- e-r-y lengthy thesis upon v-e-r-y lengthy thesis written about one subject and one subject only :)

Even though it matters not today what myriad of beliefs existed in the early church (because it's only the scriptures that prove any position true or false, not their opinions based on their interpretation of the scriptures), it would be interesting, nevertheless, if we don't have to read an encyclopedia, filed with, and mixed with, barrels of your own opinions and assumptions.

Try shorten it, staying rather with the Bible and what's written in the Bible than going to the volumes of books written about the opinions of others (please).

I have countless posts based on Scripture. Check them out! This thread is just nailing a popular lie in Premil circles.
 

Zao is life

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I have countless posts based on Scripture. Check them out! This thread is just nailing a popular lie in Premil circles.
I think that the Premils have nailed major lies existing in the Amil position.

But I'm going to stop my nonsense and stay away from this because my post just became unfairly and unnecessarily insulting. It's just that the insinuations you make about Premillennialism without ever even properly reading what has been said, only to follow with another long, long post, is too frustrating to read through.

I don't believe the millennial "reign" has anything to do with Israel, the physical city of Jerusalem, mortals in the millennium, or any of that nonsense. But I do see how you completely ignore major scriptural problems that your position is faced with, as though it matters not because "wherever there is a discrepancy, interpret scripture in the light of Amillennialism"
 

WPM

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I think that the Premils have nailed major lies existing in the Amil position.

But I'm going to stop my nonsense and stay away from this because my post just became unfairly and unnecessarily insulting. It's just that the insinuations you make about Premillennialism without ever even properly reading what has been said, only to follow with another long, long post, is too frustrating to read through.

I don't believe the millennial "reign" has anything to do with Israel, the physical city of Jerusalem, mortals in the millennium, or any of that nonsense. But I do see how you completely ignore major scriptural problems that your position is faced with, as though it matters not because "wherever there is a discrepancy, interpret scripture in the light of Amillennialism"

Like you testified, it might be good for you to stop your "nonsense" now.

You have never highlighted any supposed "major scriptural problems that [Amil] is faced with." Why do you state such when it is not true? You are unable to furnish us with anything. That is why you can bring nothing to the table but insults and misrepresentations. You seem to like to stir the pot.
 

Zao is life

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Like you testified, it might be good for you to stop your "nonsense" now.

You have never highlighted any supposed "major scriptural problems that [Amil] is faced with." Why do you state such when it is not true? You are unable to furnish us with anything. That is why you can bring nothing to the table but insults and misrepresentations. You seem to like to stir the pot.
I would have answered some things, but I saw too much in one post, and I came here displaying no wisdom or fruit in my reply, which even if I did have the knowledge and understanding about this subject that I think I have, counts zero in the Kingdom of Christ, so I apologize to you and will leave both of your threads that I responded to alone.

I meant what I said when I said I'm glad to see you here, though. I do know who you are from the other place. Your writings are even more recognizable than Paul's :)
 
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