Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[Truth7t7]

Further proof, I'm sorry, that you don't know what you are talking about.

In the parable of the laborers in Matt. 20, let's read the 8th verse.

"So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first."

Then in vs. 16, Christ says, "so the last shall be first and the first last, for many be called but few chosen."

He is referring to the laborers of the Church being chosen last/second, but first paid, remember the parable, they were paid last unto the first?

Your claim is false and out of context, Matthew 20:16 has absolutely nothing to do with Jews being first and Gentiles last

It is a parallel teaching of Mark 9:34-35 showing humility and servanthood being first and those in the unsaved world living in pleasure will be last

 

[Charlie24]

Your claims are false again, bending and twisting

God has called "The Remnant" which God foreknew and has called, while "Israel" remains blinded

Israel Hath Not Obtained

The Election Hath Obtained

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

The "election of grace" is Israel! Paul is proving that Israel has not been cast away.

God has always had a remnant of Israel, "the election of grace" of Israel. The rest of Israel were blinded through unbelief.

 

[Charlie24]

Your claim is false and out of context, Matthew 20:16 has absolutely nothing to do with Jews being first and Gentiles last

It is a parallel teaching of Mark 9:34-35 showing humility and servanthood being first and those in the unsaved world living in pleasure will be last

Ok, so let's back up to the end of the previous chapter, 19.

Peter asked Christ in 19:27 "we have forsaken all, and followed you, what shall we have therefore?"

Christ goes immediately to, vs. 28-29, "that you which have followed me, in the regeneration (the Millennium) when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory... shall inherit eternal life" Then in vs 30, "But many who are first shall be last, and the last shall be first." Here are the first and last of inheriting "eternal life."

This is where the parable begins of the laborers 20:1. The last hired were the first to be paid.

It is leading up to the time that Christ sits on His Throne that the first called shall be last saved.

Paul tells us that all of Israel will be saved, Zechariah tells us how they will be saved.

When Christ comes He saves Israel from the anti-christ, they then will know who He is.

This is when Christ sits on His Throne with all of Israel now saved.

The the first called (Israel) were the last saved.

 

[Charlie24]

Ok, so let's back up to the end of the previous chapter, 19.

Peter asked Christ in 19:27 "we have forsaken all, and followed you, what shall we have therefore?"

Christ goes immediately to, vs. 28-29, "that you which have followed me, in the regeneration (the Millennium) when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of His glory... shall inherit eternal life" Then in vs 30, "But many who are first shall be last, and the last shall be first." Here are the first and last of inheriting "eternal life."

This is where the parable begins of the laborers 20:1. The last hired were the first to be paid.

It is leading up to the time that Christ sits on His Throne that the first called shall be last saved.

Paul tells us that all of Israel will be saved, Zechariah tells us how they will be saved.

When Christ comes He saves Israel from the anti-christ, they then will know who He is.

This is when Christ sits on His Throne with all of Israel now saved.

The the first called (Israel) were the last saved.

Christ is telling the apostles that Israel will be the last saved and when they are, He will sit on His Throne in Jerusalem, with Israel who were the first called and the last to inherit eternal life, they will be rewarded then.

 

[Charlie24]

Christ is telling the apostles that Israel will be the last saved and when they are, He will sit on His Throne in Jerusalem, with Israel who were the first called and the last to inherit eternal life, they will be rewarded then.

If you don't understand that Christ came for only the lost sheep of Israel, as He said, you will not understand the impact of what He said concerning Israel! It was all about them until they rejected Him. Then He turned to the Gentiles.

If you understand this, you will see the importance of what Christ said as it concerns Israel.

 

[Truth7t7]

The "election of grace" is Israel! Paul is proving that Israel has not been cast away.

God has always had a remnant of Israel, "the election of grace" of Israel. The rest of Israel were blinded through unbelief.

The remnant obtains salvation and is added to the "Church" where there is neither Jew nor Gentile

As you have been shown "Israel" doesn't obtain salvation and is blinded

Israel Hath Not Obtained

The Election Hath Obtained

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It is if there is a presumption of "national salvation". But no such salvation is promised.

At the very least you should recognize that:
1) The Jews believed the Prophets predicted their ultimate national salvation.
2) Jesus conceded it would happen, although it would be in God's own time (Acts 1).
3) Paul taught it in Rom 11.
4) The Abrahamic Promises called for Abraham's descendants to form into the nation Israel, with the Law promising restoration of the nation following repentance.

Since you reject all of these, we have nothing more to discuss. You either believe the Bible or you don't.

No. He is addressing the Church, a "spiritual house" comprised of both Jew and Gentile "lively stones".

How is it you're unable to recognize that Peter directly references *Jews* in 1 Peter? How is it you're unable to recognize that Peter saw the Jewish Church as representative of Israel's future national salvation?

I will give you this much, that the NT Bible views Israel's national salvation as distant and taking place at the 2nd Coming. Therefore, the emphasis on on salvation *today,* which had more of a focus on outreach to Gentile nations. But it did not neglect maintaining a testimony to the Jewish people, as well.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving The Earth By Fire (The End)

I'm soon to have "earth" dissolved in my backyard, as soon as the dry weather is ended. My burn pile will reduce vegetation to its raw elements and ash, annihilating what once had been wood and chaff. It will completely dissolve what had been weeds and unwanted growth on my property. And it will do so without destroying the entire planet!

All across the earth, the armies of Antichrist and pagan armies and false Christian armies will be thus annihilated. But it will not destroy the planet, because God has promised that will never happen. The earth is eternal. God is not going to have another 6 days of creation. The earth will be renewed, and not started all over again from the beginning.

The verses below speak about the Lords second coming in fire and final judgment (The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim

It's not I who am claiming this--it's the reading in Rev 20. The Bible claims it! Regardless of your wish for me to deny it, I'm told to believe it, and not to alter the words in any way.

You falsely believe in the second coming, then a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Wrong"

You don't believe in Rev 20. Fine. That's your choice. Just don't condemn me for believing exactly what is there. Nothing in the account tells me to take these things symbolically.

I'm not telling you how to believe. You shouldn't tell me how to believe. Let's just believe in Jesus?

 

[Charlie24]

The remnant obtains salvation and is added to the "Church" where there is neither Jew nor Gentile

As you have been shown "Israel" doesn't obtain salvation and is blinded

Israel Hath Not Obtained

The Election Hath Obtained

Romans 11:1-8KJV
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

On that I agree! The handful, the remnant of Israel right now is a part of the the New Covenant.

But Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved." That is yet future. We are not in the dark about this.

Zechariah tells us they will be saved "when they see the One whom they have pierced." He tells us there will be great mourning in the land of Israel on that day. Each tribe will mourn bitterly within themselves.

This takes place at the Second Coming, as Zechariah said, "He will come and all the saints with Thee." "He will plant His feet on the Mt. of Olives and mountain will split into." "They will ask Him, what are the scars in Your hands."

This is when they realize Jesus Christ is the Messiah. And the sorrow begins.

 

[covenantee]

How is it you're unable to recognize that Peter directly references *Jews* in 1 Peter? How is it you're unable to recognize that Peter saw the Jewish Church as representative of Israel's future national salvation?

How is it you're unable to recognize that the metaphors of the Church as a building encompass all comprising it, both Jews and Gentiles, for that is who the Church is; and that is what Peter saw?

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

Romans 11:25-27 is one of the most highly debated passages in all of scripture.

What does it mean? What was Paul teaching there?

Is it a new prophecy that Paul was making about some time in the future when all Israelites, or everyone in the nation of Israel, will be saved?

Or was Paul referencing an Old Testament prophecy and explaining its ongoing fulfillment up until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Let's take a look and see.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

We can see that this is NOT a new prophecy that Paul was making because he said "as it is written...". He was referring to an old prophecy. He was referring to this prophecy:

Isaiah 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord. 21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

So, a question we should answer here is when in the future from the time of the prophecy being made in Isaiah 59:20-21 would the Deliverer/Redeemer come to turn godlessness away from "those in Jacob who repent of their sins"? Didn't He already do that? Scripture says He did.

Acts 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Peter made it clear that, according to a covenant God made with the people of Israel, God sent Jesus to the people of Israel "to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways". If that's isn't a fulfillment of Isaiah 59:20, I don't know what is.

Notice that the prophecy related directly to a covenant that would result in the Spirit of God coming to dwell in people without departing from them. Has that not been happening since the day of Pentecost long ago? What is the covenant God made with people that results in taking away their sins and in the Spirit of God dwelling in people? That is the new covenant established by the blood of Christ long ago, is it not? Passages like the following would indicate that is the case.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

So far I have established that Romans 11:25-27 is not a new prophecy that Paul made that will be fulfilled some time in the future, but rather it is a reference to an old prophecy that was already being fulfilled back then. The only covenant God has ever made that takes away sins is the new covenant and that was established long go. So, that must be kept in mind when interpreting Romans 11:25-27.

But, you might be asking what about Paul saying that all Israel will be saved in relation to the prophecy he referenced (Isaiah 59:20-21)? How could that already be fulfilled or be in the process of being fulfilled? Well, keep in mind that he said all Israel would be saved according to what was written in Isaiah 59:20-21.

According to the prophecy from Isaiah that Paul interpreted for us, all Israel is saved by way of the Deliverer coming to turn people in Israel away from godlessness in fulfillment of the covenant God made to take away their sins. Again, that covenant is the new covenant since that is the covenant God made to take away sins.

So, we know how all Israel is saved. By way of repenting of their sins which places them under the new covenant of salvation and forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

So, when Paul said all Israel will be saved, the question is this: was Paul talking about all people in the nation of Israel being saved in the future which would mean every person in Israel would repent of their sins at some point in the future? I don't believe so. It wasn't just the future that Paul had in mind there. Again, he was not making a new prophecy about something that would occur in the future, but was referencing an Old Testament prophecy and talking about its fulfillment by way of a covenant that had already been established back then rather than some time in the future.

What else could Paul have meant when he said all Israel will be saved then? To answer this, we need to go back to something Paul had written a little bit earlier in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

In this passage Paul contrasted two Israels. One that consisted of those who were physical descendants of the nation of Israel. Paul said that not all those who are physically descended from that Israel are Israel.

How do we identify the other Israel and who are part of that Israel? I highlighted natural, physical Israel (nation of Israel) in red and the other Israel in blue. Notice that the other Israel consists of those who are "Abraham's children", are reckoned "through Isaac", are "God's children", and are "children of the promise".

Who does scripture teach are "Abraham's children", "God's children", "children of the promise" and are reckoned "through Isaac"? We can see that here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

We can see here that the ones who fit the description of those who are part of the other Israel (what many call Spiritual Israel) are those who belong to Christ.

So, in which Israel are all its members saved? The one from which people descend physically which would suggest that nationality has something to do with salvation? National Israel, in other words? Or the one of which is comprised of those who have faith in Jesus Christ and belong to Christ, which I'll call Spiritual Israel?

The answer is clear. It's Spiritual Israel. When Paul said all Israel will be saved by way of the covenant God made that takes away sins, as propesied in Isaiah 59:20-21, he was talking about Spiritual Israel since it is those who are in Spiritual Israel that have been saved under the new covenant established by Christ's blood long ago. This is the way people have been saved for almost 2,000 years and how they will continue to be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

So here's another thing that those who make it a future fulfillment overlook:

Jeremiah 31
31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;
33 but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.

Matthew 26
28 for this is my blood, the blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 11
27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take away their sins."

How many times do people suppose Jesus needs to die to take away sins?

 

[Zao is life]

How is it you're unable to recognize that the metaphors of the Church as a building encompass all comprising it, both Jews and Gentiles, for that is who the Church is; and that is what Peter saw?

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

Ephesians 2
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Here's another thing that those who make Romans 11:25-36 a future-date fulfillment overlook:

The 10 Northern tribes (i.e the house of Israel, a.k.a "Ephraim") ceased being a nation before God in circa 725 B.C, and after being scattered among the nations, their descendants intermarried with Gentiles to the extent that the ethnic tribes are untraceable today:

Isaiah 7
8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within sixty-five years Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people.

Hosea 1
6 She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. Then the LORD said to him, "Name her 'No Pity' (Lo-Ruhamah) because I will no longer have pity on the nation of Israel. For I will certainly not forgive their guilt.

7 But I will have pity on the nation of Judah. I will deliver them by the LORD their God; I will not deliver them by the warrior's bow, by sword, by military victory, by chariot horses, or by chariots."

8 When she had weaned 'No Pity' (Lo-Ruhamah) she conceived again and gave birth to another son.
9 Then the LORD said: "Name him 'Not My People' (Lo-Ammi), because you are not my people and I am not your God."

So how on earth is it possible that in the future (from that time) "the number of the people of Israel will be like the sand of the sea which can be neither measured nor numbered. Although it was said to them, "You are not my people," it will be said to them, "You are children of the living God!"?

And how is it possible that Paul included the Gentiles who believe in Jesus in the fulfillment of that promise?:

Romans 9
22 But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
23 And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory -
24 even us, whom he has (already) called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25 As he also says in Hosea:

"I will call those who were not my people, 'My people,' and I will call her who was unloved, 'My beloved.'"

26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

And since the 10 Northern tribes are collectively called "Ephraim" repeatedly in scripture, why is it that the only other verse in the entire Bible aside from Romans 11:25 where you will find the expression "fullness of the Gentiles" (as it appears in the Hebrew text), is in Genesis 48: 19 when Jacob is telling Joseph about the seed of Ephraim?:

Genesis 48
19 But his father refused and said, "I know, my son, I know. He (Manasseh) too will become a nation and he too will become great. In spite of this, his younger brother (Ephraim) will be even greater and his descendants will become ['mlo goy] the fullness of the Gentiles (a multitude of nations.)"

Is it not because since God no longer had mercy on "Ephraim" and then did have mercy (in Christ and because of the blood of Christ), Paul could say,

Romans 11
30 Just as you [Ephraim?] were formerly disobedient to God, but have now received mercy due to their disobedience,
31 so they [Judah] too have now been disobedient in order that, by the mercy shown to you, they too may now receive mercy.
32 For God has consigned all to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all.

"..I will no longer have pity on the nation of Israel (i.e the 10 Northern tribes who ceased being a nation before God). For I will certainly not forgive their guilt". (Hosea 1:16)

Romans 11
23 And even they (i.e Judahites) - IF they do not continue in their unbelief - will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters



so that you may not be conceited: A partial hardening has happened to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel [Ephraim and Judah] will be saved, as it is written:

"The Deliverer will come out of Zion;
he will remove ungodliness from Jacob.

27 And this is my covenant with them,
when I take away their sins."

(Jesus took away our sins 2,000 years ago).

So therefore, the promise is fulfilled:-

1. Every time a Gentile ("the seed of Ephraim", who had ceased being a nation before God) turns away from sin and to faith in Christ and is grafted into Israel; and

2. Every time a Jew turns away from sin and to faith in Christ and is grafted back into Israel.

When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, Jesus will come back and wrap it all up. No more chance for those who continued in unbelief after that - whether Jew or Gentile - for God is no respecter of persons.

 

[Truth7t7]

The earth is eternal. God is not going to have another 6 days of creation. The earth will be renewed, and not started all over again from the beginning.



It's not I who am claiming this--it's the reading in Rev 20. The Bible claims it! Regardless of your wish for me to deny it, I'm told to believe it, and not to alter the words in any way.



You don't believe in Rev 20. Fine. That's your choice. Just don't condemn me for believing exactly what is there. Nothing in the account tells me to take these things symbolically.

I'm not telling you how to believe. You shouldn't tell me how to believe. Let's just believe in Jesus?

Your claim is "False"

This earth will be "dissolved" by the Lord's fire in final judgement, down to its very "elements", it will be a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem,

"Behold I Make All Things New"

2 Peter 3:10-13 KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[Truth7t7]

Zechariah tells us they will be saved "when they see the One whom they have pierced." He tells us there will be great mourning in the land of Israel on that day. Each tribe will mourn bitterly within themselves.

This takes place at the Second Coming, as Zechariah said, "He will come and all the saints with Thee." "He will plant His feet on the Mt. of Olives and mountain will split into." "They will ask Him, what are the scars in Your hands."

This is when they realize Jesus Christ is the Messiah. And the sorrow begins.

Zechariah Chapter 14 Is The "Eternal Kingdom"

Zechariah 14:1-12 below shows the Lords return to earth in fire in final judgement.

(Verse 1) shows "The Day Of The Lord" also seen in 2 Peter 3:10-13 "Fire Judgement" below

(Verse 2) Shows that all nations are gathered for the final battle of armageddon.

(Verses 3-5) shows the Lords return, and his eternal feet touch down on the earthly Mt, of Olives, and in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" 1 Cor 15:52 takes place, in the catching up, resurrection, final judgement by fire, and the New Heavens, Earth, and Jerusalem being revealed for eternity, judgement complete, eternity begins.

(Verses 6-7) Eternal light seen, in the eternal kingdom, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 8) The river of life is seen, Rev 22:1-5

(Verse 10) The New creation is being revealed, the plain is lifted up.

(Verse 12) "The Day Of The Lord" showing the "Last Day" judgement by the Lords fire, as men are consumed as they stand on their feet, 2 Peter 3:10-13

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Revelation 22:1KJV
And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

Zechariah 14:1-12KJV
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 but it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lordshall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin’s gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king’s winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

 

[Truth7t7]

But Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved." That is yet future. We are not in the dark about this.

Zechariah tells us they will be saved "when they see the One whom they have pierced." He tells us there will be great mourning in the land of Israel on that day. Each tribe will mourn bitterly within themselves.

This takes place at the Second Coming, as Zechariah said, "He will come and all the saints with Thee." "He will plant His feet on the Mt. of Olives and mountain will split into." "They will ask Him, what are the scars in Your hands."

This is when they realize Jesus Christ is the Messiah. And the sorrow begins.

Yes it appears you are in the dark, the Church is "The Israel Of God", just as Romans 9:6-8 below teaches

When the very last soul Is added to the Church on earth, then the saying "All Israel Will Be Saved" will be fulfilled

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes it appears you are in the dark, the Church is "The Israel Of God", just as Romans 9:6-8 below teaches

When the very last soul Is added to the Church on earth, then the saying "All Israel Will Be Saved" will be fulfilled

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Not a single word in Rom. 9:6-8 is concerning the Church! Paul is debunking their claims of salvation.

Notice in vs. 7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they Children.

The word "neither" carries from vs 6, "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" is concerning them not being "children" the children of God.

vs 6 "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." All of Israel are not saved.

vs 7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they children." They are not saved because they are of Abraham.

vs 8 "That is, they which be of the flesh, these are not the children of God." They are not saved because they are Circumcised Jews.

This is what the Jews believed! Paul is saying they are not saved by the mere fact of being the seed of Abraham, they are not saved by the circumcision of the flesh being a Jew.

 

[Charlie24]

Not a single word in Rom. 9:6-8 is concerning the Church! Paul is debunking their claims of salvation.

Notice in vs. 7 neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they Children.

The word "neither" carries from vs 6, "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" is concerning them not being "children" the children of God.

vs 6 "for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel." All of Israel are not saved.

vs 7 "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they children." They are not saved because they are of Abraham.

vs 8 "That is, they which be of the flesh, these are not the children of God." They are not saved because they are Circumcised Jews.

This is what the Jews believed! Paul is saying they are not saved by the mere fact of being the seed of Abraham, they are not saved by the circumcision of the flesh being a Jew.

Truth, you need to learn some Scripture before you try sell off Israel.

All you guys who are in this Replacement Theology have one thing in common, weak knowledge of Scripture.

I've dealt with them for many years, they don't know what the Scripture is saying!

 

[jeffweeder]

On that I agree! The handful, the remnant of Israel right now is a part of the the New Covenant.

Why not all Israel a part of it back then....and now?



[ But Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved."

That is yet future. We are not in the dark about this.

Zechariah tells us they will be saved "when they see the One whom they have pierced.]

Why are they saved just by seeing him and not the ones who saw him back then?


Faith and repentance are the reason for the remnant
Without faith it is impossible to please God so just seeing him is not going to do them any good.

 

[Charlie24]

Why not all Israel a part of it back then....and now?



[ But Paul said, "all of Israel will be saved."

That is yet future. We are not in the dark about this.

Zechariah tells us they will be saved "when they see the One whom they have pierced.]

Why are they saved just by seeing him and not the ones who saw him back then?


Faith and repentance are the reason for the remnant
Without faith it is impossible to please God so just seeing him is not going to do them any good.

I can't see faith as an issue when Israel sees their Messiah.

Micah 2:12-13
"I will surely assemble, O Jacob, all of thee; I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together as the sheep of Bozrah, as the flock in the midst of their fold: they shall make great noise by reason of the multitude of men.

The breaker is come up before them: they have broken up, and have passed through the gate, and are gone out by it: and their king shall pass before them, and the Lord on the head of them."

The remnant here is what's left of Israel after the anti-christ (the breaker) has almost destroyed them, and Christ saves the remaining Jews.

Zechariah said that 2/3 of Israel will die at this time, and 1/3 will pass through the fire. This 1/3 is the remnant of Micah 2:12.

The King that passes before them is their Messiah that has just saved them. The reason for "the great noise by reason of the multitude of men."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your claim is "False"

This earth will be "dissolved" by the Lord's fire in final judgement, down to its very "elements", it will be a New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem,

"Behold I Make All Things New"

2 Peter 3:10-13 KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

A New Creation, Behold, I Make All Things New

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The only problem with that is, that's not what God meant.

Psalm 78.69 He built his sanctuary like the heights, like the earth that he established forever.

Psalm 104.5 He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

Eccles 1.4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.

The destruction of items down to their elements mean for the people in Bible times what happens when a fire destroys. It turns everything to charcoal and carbon monoxide or its basic elements. It does not imply the *planet itself* explodes.

We know the earth is fragile in appearance, because it is thought that in a "random" universe, anything can happen. But we read in the Scriptures that God's word holds everything together. God intends, I believe, to restore solidity to the earth, rather than start over from scratch. "Re-Creation" does not have to mean a different creation. It can refer to a reformation of preexisting material to be made new.