Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
4,330
1,839
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 11:25-27 is one of the most highly debated passages in all of scripture.

What does it mean? What was Paul teaching there?

Is it a new prophecy that Paul was making about some time in the future when all Israelites, or everyone in the nation of Israel, will be saved?

Or was Paul referencing an Old Testament prophecy and explaining its ongoing fulfillment up until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Let's take a look and see.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

We can see that this is NOT a new prophecy that Paul was making because he said "as it is written...". He was referring to an old prophecy. He was referring to this prophecy:

Isaiah 59:20 “The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,” declares the Lord. 21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord.

So, a question we should answer here is when in the future from the time of the prophecy being made in Isaiah 59:20-21 would the Deliverer/Redeemer come to turn godlessness away from "those in Jacob who repent of their sins"? Didn't He already do that? Scripture says He did.

Acts 3:25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Peter made it clear that, according to a covenant God made with the people of Israel, God sent Jesus to the people of Israel "to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways". If that's isn't a fulfillment of Isaiah 59:20, I don't know what is.

Notice that the prophecy related directly to a covenant that would result in the Spirit of God coming to dwell in people without departing from them. Has that not been happening since the day of Pentecost long ago? What is the covenant God made with people that results in taking away their sins and in the Spirit of God dwelling in people? That is the new covenant established by the blood of Christ long ago, is it not? Passages like the following would indicate that is the case.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

2 Corinthians 3:4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

So far I have established that Romans 11:25-27 is not a new prophecy that Paul made that will be fulfilled some time in the future, but rather it is a reference to an old prophecy that was already being fulfilled back then. The only covenant God has ever made that takes away sins is the new covenant and that was established long go. So, that must be kept in mind when interpreting Romans 11:25-27.

But, you might be asking what about Paul saying that all Israel will be saved in relation to the prophecy he referenced (Isaiah 59:20-21)? How could that already be fulfilled or be in the process of being fulfilled? Well, keep in mind that he said all Israel would be saved according to what was written in Isaiah 59:20-21.

According to the prophecy from Isaiah that Paul interpreted for us, all Israel is saved by way of the Deliverer coming to turn people in Israel away from godlessness in fulfillment of the covenant God made to take away their sins. Again, that covenant is the new covenant since that is the covenant God made to take away sins.

So, we know how all Israel is saved. By way of repenting of their sins which places them under the new covenant of salvation and forgiveness of sins through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

So, when Paul said all Israel will be saved, the question is this: was Paul talking about all people in the nation of Israel being saved in the future which would mean every person in Israel would repent of their sins at some point in the future? I don't believe so. It wasn't just the future that Paul had in mind there. Again, he was not making a new prophecy about something that would occur in the future, but was referencing an Old Testament prophecy and talking about its fulfillment by way of a covenant that had already been established back then rather than some time in the future.

What else could Paul have meant when he said all Israel will be saved then? To answer this, we need to go back to something Paul had written a little bit earlier in his letter to the Romans.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

In this passage Paul contrasted two Israels. One that consisted of those who were physical descendants of the nation of Israel. Paul said that not all those who are physically descended from that Israel are Israel.

How do we identify the other Israel and who are part of that Israel? I highlighted natural, physical Israel (nation of Israel) in red and the other Israel in blue. Notice that the other Israel consists of those who are "Abraham's children", are reckoned "through Isaac", are "God's children", and are "children of the promise".

Who does scripture teach are "Abraham's children", "God's children", "children of the promise" and are reckoned "through Isaac"? We can see that here:

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

We can see here that the ones who fit the description of those who are part of the other Israel (what many call Spiritual Israel) are those who belong to Christ.

So, in which Israel are all its members saved? The one from which people descend physically which would suggest that nationality has something to do with salvation? National Israel, in other words? Or the one of which is comprised of those who have faith in Jesus Christ and belong to Christ, which I'll call Spiritual Israel?

The answer is clear. It's Spiritual Israel. When Paul said all Israel will be saved by way of the covenant God made that takes away sins, as propesied in Isaiah 59:20-21, he was talking about Spiritual Israel since it is those who are in Spiritual Israel that have been saved under the new covenant established by Christ's blood long ago. This is the way people have been saved for almost 2,000 years and how they will continue to be saved until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
 
Last edited:

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,717
2,415
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Romans 11:25-27 is one of the most highly debated passages in all of scripture.

What does it mean? What was Paul teaching there?

Is it a new prophecy that Paul was making about some time in the future when all Israelites, or everyone in the nation of Israel, will be saved?

Or was Paul referencing an Old Testament prophecy and explaining its ongoing fulfillment up until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in?

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:“The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

Paul was reiterating the Jewish Hope, the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise. Abraham was promised a nation of faith. This obviously does not include every individual, because nations comprise believers and unbelievers. But to have a nation of faith merely requires a predominance of leaders who have faith and a majority who practice faith. This keeps the nation in the realm of divine blessing, which is what God promised under the Law and will be fulfilled when Christ returns.

The salvation and the deliverance being promised to the nation Israel was a political deliverance. But political deliverance was always predicated, under God's covenant, upon the obedience of the nation, generally, to God's word. When the nation moved in the direction of obedience, punishing rebels and favoring the obedient, then good things happened. Enemies were scattered. The nation prospered.

Israel was always intended to become a Christian nation, just as they had been created to be a nation of God. But by the time Christ came, the nation had once again fallen away into religious apostasy, just as they had done many times before.

Will this stop Israel from recovering from their backsliding? Paul argued against this. He stated that grace will restore them just as grace is now reaching out to pagan nations. If pagan nations can be forgiven so can Israel be forgiven in their backsliding and sin.

I don't need to go any farther into this. This is my position.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ronald David Bruno

jeffweeder

Well-Known Member
Jul 6, 2007
999
795
113
60
South Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
This obviously does not include every individual, because nations comprise believers and unbelievers.

That is not the kind of nation God ever wants. He promised a nation that only has believers in his seed. People from many nations who believe in the seed will join them, fulfilling the promise.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,717
2,415
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is not the kind of nation God ever wants. He promised a nation that only has believers in his seed. People from many nations who believe in the seed will join them, fulfilling the promise.

It's a 2 step process. 1st the nation, and then the sifting of individuals.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,545
1,867
113
72
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
It's a 2 step process. 1st the nation, and then the sifting of individuals.
The word "nation" is entirely absent from both Romans 9 and Romans 11.

There is only one nation which matches the descriptions of NT Scripture.

It is the Church, which is a nation of nations. (Acts 10:34-35, 1 Peter 2:9)
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,717
2,415
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The word "nation" is entirely absent from both Romans 9 and Romans 11.

Is that significant? We read of "nations" in Romans elsewhere, in particular with regard to the Abrahamic promises:

Rom 4.13 Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

Just as important we see it here, where Israel's possession of the Kingdom is viewed as passed on to other nations...

Rom 10.19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, “I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”

There is only one nation which matches the descriptions of NT Scripture.

It is the Church, which is a nation of nations. (Acts 10:34-35, 1 Peter 2:9)

As you can see, Peter in 1 Peter is addressing the Jewish nation, recalling their original call to be a nation of God and their ultimate destiny to be a Christian nation. In the meantime, the few Christians among the Jews are holding onto the Jewish Hope until it is fulfilled at the return of Christ...

The following is *not* a reference to an entire nation, but to individuals within a nation.
Acts 10.34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."

1 pet 1.1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood...
1 Pet 2.9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The reference in vs 10 is from Hosea, and applied to Israel--not to the Gentile Church. Hosea 1 and 2.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,717
2,415
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe that “all Israel” is true Israel the church made up of both Jew and gentile.

The deliverer (Jesus) will come from Zion;(ethnic Israel) he will turn godlessness away from Jacob(true Israel)

Why else would Israel have two descriptions?

Dualisms are synonymous, and are not anachronistic descriptions. "Zion" and "Jacob" are synonymous, as I see it. Why would you distinguish them when the seat of Israel's government was Zion?
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,545
1,867
113
72
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Is that significant?

It is if there is a presumption of "national salvation". But no such salvation is promised.

As you can see, Peter in 1 Peter is addressing the Jewish nation

No. He is addressing the Church, a "spiritual house" comprised of both Jew and Gentile "lively stones".

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The following is *not* a reference to an entire nation, but to individuals within a nation.
Acts 10.34 Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right."

True. Individual believers "from every nation" together comprise the Holy Nation of the Church.
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Paul was reiterating the Jewish Hope, the fulfillment of the Abrahamic promise. Abraham was promised a nation of faith. This obviously does not include every individual, because nations comprise believers and unbelievers. But to have a nation of faith merely requires a predominance of leaders who have faith and a majority who practice faith. This keeps the nation in the realm of divine blessing, which is what God promised under the Law and will be fulfilled when Christ returns.

The salvation and the deliverance being promised to the nation Israel was a political deliverance. But political deliverance was always predicated, under God's covenant, upon the obedience of the nation, generally, to God's word. When the nation moved in the direction of obedience, punishing rebels and favoring the obedient, then good things happened. Enemies were scattered. The nation prospered.

Israel was always intended to become a Christian nation, just as they had been created to be a nation of God. But by the time Christ came, the nation had once again fallen away into religious apostasy, just as they had done many times before.

Will this stop Israel from recovering from their backsliding? Paul argued against this. He stated that grace will restore them just as grace is now reaching out to pagan nations. If pagan nations can be forgiven so can Israel be forgiven in their backsliding and sin.

I don't need to go any farther into this. This is my position.
Jesus Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving The Earth By Fire (The End)

The verses below speak about the Lords second coming in fire and final judgment (The End) there won't be a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you claim

You falsely believe in the second coming, then a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Wrong"

You don't want to see the fire in destruction at the Lord's return below, because it removes your claim of a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Gone"!

Jesus Is The Lord

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day
when the Son of man is revealed.
 
Last edited:

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That is not the kind of nation God ever wants. He promised a nation that only has believers in his seed. People from many nations who believe in the seed will join them, fulfilling the promise.
I Agree 100% and 2 Peter 2:9 validates this fact "The Church" is the Holy Nation, comprised of both Jew and Gentile "Believers" simple, clear, easy to understand

To think a person would try to lump together unholy liars, adulterers, fornicators, murderers, into God's "Nation" just because a claimed Majority are believers in a geographical area on earth, laughable!

Just let's you see how far "Christian Zionism" will go in "Falsely Claiming" a specific ethnic people on this earth "Jews" are God's Chosen People, a lie!

"The Church" Seen Below

2 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 
Last edited:

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I Agree 100% and 2 Peter 2:9 validates this fact "The Church" is the Holy Nation, comprised of both Jew and Gentile "Believers" simple, clear, easy to understand

To think a person would try to lump together unholy liars, adulterers, fornicators, murderers, into God's "Nation" just because a claimed Majority are believers in a geographical area on earth, laughable!

Just let's you see how far "Christian Zionism" will go in "Falsely Claiming" a specific ethnic people on this earth "Jews" are God's Chosen People, a lie!

"The Church" Seen Below

2 Peter 2:9KJV
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Some of those in the Church have not figured out that they are the "wild olive branch" that has been grafted into the "natural olive tree" which is Israel. No one can show it to them, the Lord will have to do it.

They think they are the chosen, and Israel has been set out to pasture. They are blind to Isaiah and Zechariah's prophecy that all the nations of the world will have to go through the Jew to get to the King. They will take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew.

A little mud in the face is just what they need! Maybe then they will see who they really are compared to God's originally called people. They choose to skip the part where Israel will fulfill their calling. They will see it soon enough, but until then we have to bear those poor souls.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
They think they are the chosen, and Israel has been set out to pasture. They are blind to Isaiah and Zechariah's prophecy that all the nations of the world will have to go through the Jew to get to the King. They will take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew.

A little mud in the face is just what they need! Maybe then they will see who they really are compared to God's originally called people. They choose to skip the part where Israel will fulfill their calling. They will see it soon enough, but until then we have to bear those poor souls.
Christian Zionism on display

The only Jew that is any part of my salvation and eternity is "Jesus Christ" period!

Your Zionist claims that the Non-Jew will be led to the King Jesus is "Laughable"!
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Truth, is it possible that Paul used the illustration of the "wild olive branches," the Gentile Church, being grafted into the "natural olive tree," Israel, because the "wild olive branches" are inferior to the "natural olive tree?"
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Truth, is it possible that Paul used the illustration of the "wild olive branches," the Gentile Church, being grafted into the "natural olive tree," Israel, because the "wild olive branches" are inferior to the "natural olive tree?"
You proclaim Grabbing the skirt of a Jew will be a "Future" event in a Millennial Kingdom on earth "Wrong"!

Zechariah Chapters 7-8 is nothing more than Zechariah's prophecy of Israel returning to Jerusalem after the Babylonian Captivity under King Darius

Your claim the Jew is going to lead the Church to the King Jesus, is once again "Laughable"

Zechariah 8:9 & 23KJV
9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall
take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You proclaim Grabbing the skirt of a Jew will be a "Future" event in a Millennial Kingdom on earth "Wrong"!

Zechariah Chapters 7-8 is nothing more than Zechariah's prophecy of Israel returning to Jerusalem after the Babylonian Captivity under King Darius

Your claim the Jew is going to lead the Church to the King Jesus, is once again "Laughable"

Zechariah 8:9 & 23KJV
9 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the Lord of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

23 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall
take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Like I said, the Lord will have to show you! I'll be looking for you in the crowd with muddy faces.

Those who will not give the chosen people of God their due, who think they are better than God's people.
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Truth, is it possible that Paul used the illustration of the "wild olive branches," the Gentile Church, being grafted into the "natural olive tree," Israel, because the "wild olive branches" are inferior to the "natural olive tree?"
The Olive Tree Is "Jesus Christ" not a Nation named Israel in a geographical location

The Church is the Israel of God as Romans 9:6-8 clearly teaches, those Jews whom God has called through foreknowledge will be saved and grafted into Jesus Christ the olive tree and added to the Church on earth
 

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Like I said, the Lord will have to show you! I'll be looking for you in the crowd with muddy faces.

Those who will not give the chosen people of God their due, who think they are better than God's people.
Ethnic Jews upon this earth are no more chosen than Whites, Blacks, Hispanics, Chinese, whatever, God has no respect for persons

It's Zionist propaganda in false teachings that has you bound Charlie, Sorta like the guy preaching this in Texas, Adulterer John Hagee Americas #1 Christian Zionist in false teachings
 

Charlie24

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2021
2,283
1,283
113
68
Monroe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Olive Tree Is "Jesus Christ" not a Nation named Israel in a geographical location

The Church is the Israel of God as Romans 9:6-8 clearly teaches, those Jews whom God has called through foreknowledge will be saved and grafted into Jesus Christ the olive tree and added to the Church on earth

The Jews have always believed they are saved by the mere fact they are a Jew, the chosen of God.

They believed it when Christ came and they believe it now at this present time.

Rom. 9:6-8 is Paul denouncing that national salvation of the Jews.

God only recognizes those of Israel who are in Christ. The rest are lost, but still God's chosen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CadyandZoe

Truth7t7

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2014
10,843
3,260
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God only recognizes those of Israel who are in Christ. The rest are lost, but still God's chosen.
Oxymoron, they are lost but still God's chosen :eek:

"Big Smiles"!

"Christian Zionism" on full display

There are 2 groups in the world (1. saved) destined forth eternal kingdom (2. unsaved) destined for the lake of fire

No Jew, No Israel, No Whatever, Just Two Groups (Group 1. Saved) Or (Group 2. Unsaved) It's That Simple

Jesus Is The Lord