Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[WPM]

@WPM, since I messed up my previous post, I decided to create a new one here.


Jesus is divine in character without being a deity. In his epistle to the Romans, Paul argues that the divine nature of God is clearly seen in what he has made. Romans1:20. The Creation is not a deity. This includes Jesus who represents God's divine nature perfectly and to such a great degree, that Paul argues in Colossians that Jesus images God. Peter, on the other hand, argues that by the precious and magnificent promises of God, we become partakers of the divine nature, "having escaped the corruption that is the world by lust" 2 Peter 1:4 Thus, even as we will eventually participate in the divine nature according to God's promise, we are not a deity either. Jesus is divine, but that doesn't make him a deity.


John does NOT say that Jesus is the word. He says that the word became flesh. What does it mean for a word to become flesh? A word becomes flesh in the same way that a building blueprint becomes a building. A word becomes flesh in the same way that an idea in the mind of an architect is given physical form in reality outside of his mind.

Is Jesus talking about the hupostatic union? I don't think so. He claims that he is of one mind and purpose with the Father. And later in John, he will pray the same thing about his future apostles

I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. John 17:11

He does not pray that the apostles will become one "ousia" with him and the father.

Paul clearly names the father as God. He names the son as Lord. This distinction is important. He tells us that God is the source of all things saying "of whom are all things"; then he says that the Lord sustains all things saying, "by whom are all things." We understand that through the son, God was reconciling the world to himself and because of this, he has granted them eternal life. Paul isn't saying that Jesus created everything, he says that by Jesus everything will continue. That is, Jesus will defeat death.

This is a common rookie mistake made by those who believe that dictionaries and lexicons are inspired scripture. The Greek word "dia" means what Paul intended it to mean, not necessarily what a dictionary says it means.

What you have in your hand is a translation and a lexicon and you are comparing the translation with the lexicon. I get that. That's how I thought translation was done. I thought, as you do, that translation is nothing more than decoding a word from one language to another.

If you had studied this passage, you would have immediately rejected the dictionary defintion of the word "dia" for two main reasons. First, Paul isn't talking about the pre-existent "Word" in this context. Paul is talking about Jesus the man. It wasn't the "Word" who appeared in these last days; Jesus the man appeared in these last days; Jesus the man was lower than the angels; Jesus the man was appointed over the works of his father's hands. It was Jesus the man who suffered and died and ascended to sit at the right hand of the father. It wasn't Jesus the man who created everything. Even those who affirm the Trinity doctrine must say that it was "The Word" that created the world, not Jesus the man.

Secondly, the term "son" is not without meaning. The term refers to the male offspring of a father. If one believes that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit comprise one "ousia", then it makes no sense to suggest that God the father sired God the son. At the least, the term indicates an intimate relationship between a man and his male heir. But even here, it makes no sence for two coequal beings to have a father/son relationship.

Only Jesus the man, can have a father/son relationship with God the father. The "Word" are coequals according to Trinitarian doctrine. One is not subordinate to the other. But the man Jesus is subordinate to the father.

For these two reasons, we understand that Paul is not saying that Jesus was the creator of all things.

Did someone else write this?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Did someone else write this?

No, I wrote it.

 

[WPM]

Did someone else write this?

It seems like you are getting coached. Did your mentor help you? It is not your style or language.

 

[Timtofly]

It seems like you are getting coached. Did your mentor help you? It is not your style or language.

What is the deal with this police style interrogation you have with people?

Posters are not criminals stealing eschatological theories from other people.

This is a friendly social interchange of ideas, not the pentagon.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It seems like you are getting coached. Did your mentor help you? It is not your style or language.

No, I wrote that

 

[WPM]

Jesus is divine in character without being a deity. In his epistle to the Romans, Paul argues that the divine nature of God is clearly seen in what he has made. Romans 1:20. The Creation is not a deity. This includes Jesus who represents God's divine nature perfectly and to such a great degree, that Paul argues in Colossians that Jesus images God. Peter, on the other hand, argues that by the precious and magnificent promises of God, we become partakers of the divine nature, "having escaped the corruption that is the world by lust" 2 Peter 1:4 Thus, even as we will eventually participate in the divine nature according to God's promise, we are not a deity either. Jesus is divine, but that doesn't make him a deity.

You did not answer my arguments in anyway. That is why I thought you had defaulted to somebody else who is not engaged in the discussion. You seem to have a problem with addressing the arguments of others. You transpire to make another speech full of error. The rebuttals above that I have presented forbid your heresy. That is needless why you are forced to ignore them.

It is a fact: there is no one as blind as one who cannot see.

I showed you that upon the new birth, the believer takes on Christ. This results in the believer being changed or “renewed” into conformity to the image of God. The Greek word here interpreted “image” is eikōn meaning likeness, profile, or resemblance. The key here is the manifestation of Christ in our lives that enables the new man to be seen.

What do you mean "Jesus is divine in character without being a deity" and "Jesus is divine, but that doesn't make him a deity"? This is theological double-speak. You are talking out of both sides your mouth at one time.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We partake in the divine nature by putting on Christ in salvation. It is His character that is revealed in us and through us.

John does NOT say that Jesus is the word. He says that the word became flesh. What does it mean for a word to become flesh? A word becomes flesh in the same way that a building blueprint becomes a building. A word becomes flesh in the same way that an idea in the mind of an architect is given physical form in reality outside of his mind.

Yes he does. The eternal Word became flesh at Bethlehem in the incarnation. Christ took on human form. The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Verse 10-14 continues, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

He was equal with both God and man. He could take God’s divine hand and our sinful hand and bring them together in love, grace and mercy. Christ was fully man when He walked this sin cursed world although He did not have Adam’s sinful blood within Him, like every other man ever born; He carried His Father’s blood – that blood was manifestly 100% pure and sinless. Whilst His glory has veiled within a human body, He did not at any time lay aside His deity.

Is Jesus talking about the hupostatic union? I don't think so. He claims that he is of one mind and purpose with the Father. And later in John, he will pray the same thing about his future apostles

Of course we are looking at the real intimate union of Jesus’ two natures. Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and my Father are one.”

They were one in nature, one in essence, one in heart, one in perfection, and one in power.

John 10:31: "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

Jesus replied, "Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?" (John 10:30).

The Jews answered him, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. “

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

"Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand."

A careful study of this discourse shows that for Christ to say “I and my Father are one” (v30) and “the Father is in me, and I in him” (v38) was in actuality to state “I am the Son of God” (v36).

To this claim the Jews wanted to kill Him for blasphemy. Christ’s analysis of this incident confirms this deduction. After noting the anger of the Jews Jesus interprets their anger to the statement “I and my Father are one” as accusing Him of blasphemy “because I said, I am the Son of God.” From Christ’s perspective, saying “I and my Father are one” was indistinguishable to saying “I am the Son of God.” These statements are obviously synonymous. This reinforces the belief that for Christ to be the Son of God – the only begotten of God – was to say He was God. He is the outward visible physical manifestation of the invisible God.

 

[WPM]

Paul clearly names the father as God. He names the son as Lord. This distinction is important. He tells us that God is the source of all things saying "of whom are all things"; then he says that the Lord sustains all things saying, "by whom are all things." We understand that through the son, God was reconciling the world to himself and because of this, he has granted them eternal life. Paul isn't saying that Jesus created everything, he says that by Jesus everything will continue. That is, Jesus will defeat death.

Yahweh is identified as the Creator of this World. However, the New Testament repeatedly demonstrates that Jesus Christ is the Creator. The only way that Yahweh could have done these things “alone” or ‘by Himself’ is if Jesus is Yahweh.

The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Verse 10-14 continues, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ. It reveals the King of Glory in all His marvellous provision, purpose and power. The reading outlines His eternal pre-existence, powerfully revealing Him as the eternal Son of God; “The same was in the beginning with God” (v 2). Whilst, Christ was man of very man, He was also God of very God. Verse 1 succinctly says, “the Word was God.” Therefore, as the second person of the Trinity, He was the eternal Creator of this world.” Verse 10 tells us, “the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.”

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are. They butcher the original language. The Greek word dia is actually a primary preposition denoting: "the channel of an act" (Strong's). Jesus was the channel whom the Father worked through. He was the Creator. How do you sleep at night knowing you are going to have to face Jesus some day and account for twisting the Word of God and deceiving people?

The Bible acknowledges Jesus as the Word, the Creator.

Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

Colossians 1:13-17 says: “Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

This passage, which is speaking of Jesus, tells us that “all things were created by him, and for him” which would clearly make Him God.

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”

Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.

These verses show the pre-existence of Christ the Son of God the Creator.

This is the only time in the Bible that this word is found.

The phrase “express image” derives from the lone Greek word charakter which means what it says: “character.” Christ is “the brightness of” God’s “glory” and the “charakter of his person.” Christ is the physical manifestation or representation of the invisible God. He is indeed the “express image” of Almighty God. Jesus is God. God physically is expressed in the person of Christ.

Hebrews 2:9-10 declares: “we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.”

Revelation 3:14 declares: “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”

The designation “faithful and true” belongs to Christ. We see that in the depiction of the Second Coming in Revelation 19:11: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

Revelation 4:10-11 declares: “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

 

[CadyandZoe]

You did not answer my arguments in anyway. That is why I thought you had defaulted to somebody else who is not engaged in the discussion. You seem to have a problem with addressing the arguments of others. You transpire to make another speech full of error. The rebuttals above that I have presented forbid your heresy. That is needless why you are forced to ignore them.

It is a fact: there is no one as blind as one who cannot see.

I showed you that upon the new birth, the believer takes on Christ. This results in the believer being changed or “renewed” into conformity to the image of God. The Greek word here interpreted “image” is eikōn meaning likeness, profile, or resemblance. The key here is the manifestation of Christ in our lives that enables the new man to be seen.

What do you mean "Jesus is divine in character without being a deity" and "Jesus is divine, but that doesn't make him a deity"? This is theological double-speak. You are talking out of both sides your mouth at one time.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

We partake in the divine nature by putting on Christ in salvation. It is His character that is revealed in us and through us.



Yes he does. The eternal Word became flesh at Bethlehem in the incarnation. Christ took on human form. The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

Verse 10-14 continues, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

He was equal with both God and man. He could take God’s divine hand and our sinful hand and bring them together in love, grace and mercy. Christ was fully man when He walked this sin cursed world although He did not have Adam’s sinful blood within Him, like every other man ever born; He carried His Father’s blood – that blood was manifestly 100% pure and sinless. Whilst His glory has veiled within a human body, He did not at any time lay aside His deity.



Of course we are looking at the real intimate union of Jesus’ two natures. Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and my Father are one.”

They were one in nature, one in essence, one in heart, one in perfection, and one in power.

John 10:31: "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him."

Jesus replied, "Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?" (John 10:30).

The Jews answered him, “For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. “

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him."

"Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand."

A careful study of this discourse shows that for Christ to say “I and my Father are one” (v30) and “the Father is in me, and I in him” (v38) was in actuality to state “I am the Son of God” (v36).

To this claim the Jews wanted to kill Him for blasphemy. Christ’s analysis of this incident confirms this deduction. After noting the anger of the Jews Jesus interprets their anger to the statement “I and my Father are one” as accusing Him of blasphemy “because I said, I am the Son of God.” From Christ’s perspective, saying “I and my Father are one” was indistinguishable to saying “I am the Son of God.” These statements are obviously synonymous. This reinforces the belief that for Christ to be the Son of God – the only begotten of God – was to say He was God. He is the outward visible physical manifestation of the invisible God.

WPM, perhaps you didn't know that an argument begins with one or more "givens" or even a single premise. Time and efficiency dictates that I address your initial premise. If I defeat your premise, the rest of your argument is also defeated.