Saved by Faith vs Repentance and Obeying the Commandments

[Ernest T. Bass]

@Ernest T. Bass , question... read Romans 6:4-6:​

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4 When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life. 5 If we’ve become united with him in a death like his, certainly we will also be united with him when we come back to life as he did. 6 We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin.​

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So is everyone John Baptized had no effect in your view.​

John's baptism was not a baptism into the death of Christ and John's baptism was replaced by the baptism of the great commission per Mk 16:15-16; Matt 28:19,20 which is a baptism into the death of Christ. Therefore John's baptism is not the baptism the NT requires of us today, that being, a baptism into the death of Christ.

Though John's baptism is not the baptism the NT gospel requires into the death of Christ, John's baptism was "for the remission of sins" Mk 1:4. So those baptized with John's baptism would have had all their sins remitted when Christ died on the cross shedding His blood (Heb 9:22). But the NT requires a belief in the death and resurrection of Christ (Rom 10:9) and a baptism into the death of Christ (Rom 6) neither of which were possible for those cases cited in the OP.

 

[dev553344]

John's baptism was not a baptism into the death of Christ and John's baptism was replaced by the baptism of the great commission per Mk 16:15-16; Matt 28:19,20 which is a baptism into the death of Christ. Therefore John's baptism is not the baptism the NT requires of us today, that being, a baptism into the death of Christ.

Though John's baptism is not the baptism the NT gospel requires into the death of Christ, John's baptism was "for the remission of sins" Mk 1:4. So those baptized with John's baptism would have had all their sins remitted when Christ died on the cross shedding His blood (Heb 9:22). But the NT requires a belief in the death and resurrection of Christ (Rom 10:9) and a baptism into the death of Christ (Rom 6) neither of which were possible for those cases cited in the OP.

Well even if what you're saying is correct, then how again were the three examples in the OP saved under the old law, wouldn't they have had to offer a sin offering to get forgiveness?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Heb 9:16-17 speaks of the death of Jesus. We are baptized into his death. John was baptizing before his death. Think about it. Jesus was also baptized to fullfill all righeousness. Wouldn't he be under the old law under your ideas?

Jesus also preached to the spirits in prison when he went to hell. They died in Noah's flood. Why preach to them if it wasn't to save them via the new testament. Why waist his time then?

Peter is not saying Christ went to prison and preached to those spirits.

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which (the Spirit) also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;"

The words "by which" tells us the means by which Christ spake to those spirits in prison. And we know from 1 Pet 1:11 Christ's Spirit was in those OT prophets/preachers as Noah. So it was Christ's Spirit in Noah and thru Noah is how Christ spake to those who lived before the flood. But by the time Peter wrote His epistle, those spirits whom Christ Spirit spake to thru Noah before the flood were in prison. Peter is NOT saying Christ Himself went to prison to speak to those people for His Spirit already spoke to them thru Noah before the flood.

Peter is using a figure of speech, a prolepsis where he is bringing together 2 different time frames, 1) a time in the past when Christ spoke to those people thru Noah prior to the flood and 2) the present time those people were in prison when he wrote his epistle.

Example. I might say I dated my wife two years before we got married. Yet she was not my wife those two years we dated. I am bringing together two frames 1), a time in the past when we dated and 2) the present time when she is my wife. Peter is doing the same thing, bringing together two different time frames, a 1) time in the past when they were preached to by Christ's Spirit thru Noah and 2) present time when they are in prison.

Further reading:

Preaching to the Spirits in Prison : Christian Courier

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well even if what you're saying is correct, then how again were the three examples in the OP saved under the old law, wouldn't they have had to offer a sin offering to get forgiveness?

As i pointed out earlier, from Matt 9:6 when Christ was "ON EARTH" during His personal earthly ministry He had been given the power to forgive sins of those who He tho't were deserving as the thief and the woman. Therefore no one today can be saved as they for Christ is not on earth today forgiving sins of people personally but left behind His NT as His authority that requires people today under that NT to believe repent confess and be baptized.

People will be judged by the law under which they lived and none in the OP lived under the NT gospel for it was not yet in force.

 

[dev553344]

As i pointed out earlier, from Matt 9:6 when Christ was "ON EARTH" during His personal earthly ministry He had been given the power to forgive sins of those who He tho't were deserving as the thief and the woman. Therefore no one today can be saved as they for Christ is not on earth today forgiving sins of people personally but left behind His NT as His authority that requires people today under that NT to believe repent confess and be baptized.

People will be judged by the law under which they lived and none in the OP lived under the NT gospel for it was not yet in force.

Well, I am strongly convinced that we have different interpretations of the bible and what is said and how it works. So I'll just agree to disagree.

Thanks for your time. I learned a different perspective than mine. But I will in the end keep my beliefs.

 

[dev553344]

CHOOSE YE THIS DAY whom ye shall serve . THE WORDS of CHRIST shall be the judge of all men on the last day .
THEY WILL BE LIFE TO THOSE WHO EMBRACED HIM , but a death sentence to those who denied HIM . THAT IS A FACT .
SO while there is time we better be pointing to CHRIST and it had better be the BIBILICAL ONE TOO , cause any other jesus aint gonna save .

No one has said not to obey the commandments of Christ, re-read post #2. And no one mentioned in the OP denied Christ. And I backed up the OP with bible references. Do you have anything relevant to the OP to discuss?

 

[DJT_47]

When ALL pertinent scriptures relative to salvation are considered, you end up with the following list of things.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief with the mouth
3. Repentance
4. Water baptism

 

[amigo de christo]

No one has said not to obey the commandments of Christ, re-read post #2. And no one mentioned in the OP denied Christ. And I backed up the OP with bible references. Do you have anything relevant to the OP to discuss?

I never said anyone did say those things . I was just reminding us about the glorious Lord and The truth .

 

[amigo de christo]

When ALL pertinent scriptures relative to salvation are considered, you end up with the following list of things.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of belief with the mouth
3. Repentance
4. Water baptism

it is Lord praising and thanking time in the building . So let all praise the glorious Lord .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I recently, in my study of the bible, was shown on this forum a couple verses that really helped me to accept that some sinners will be saved by faith, and others repentance and obeying the commandments in faith.

First we have the parable of the Tax Collector and Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14), where we learn that a sinner confessing to God he is a sinner with a humble heart is justified.

Second is the Parable of the Two Debtors (Luke 7:36-50) which is proceeded by the woman washing Jesus' feet with her tears. A terrible sinner that Jesus forgives or justifies with her faith and love of him.

Lastly the thief on the cross, punished for his sins to death and told he will be seen in paradise. (Luke 23:39-43)

Anything else I left out? Feel free to discuss and add to this.

For the life of me I can’t quite grasp what you’re saying in your first paragraph there. I tried really hard for about 15 minutes to connect the paragraph to the parables to try to grasp it and nothing is popping in my denseness.

The closest I could come was to see you were saying saved through trust versus Obeying the commandments through trust?
im just really confused.

 

[dev553344]

For the life of me I can’t quite grasp what you’re saying in your first paragraph there. I tried really hard for about 15 minutes to connect the paragraph to the parables to try to grasp it and nothing is popping in my denseness.

The closest I could come was to see you were saying saved through trust versus Obeying the commandments through trust?
im just really confused.

Yeah I'm getting that from people. the three examples are people that didn't obey the commandments and were saved because they looked to Jesus. They are exceptions from standard practices of salvation.

Basically Jesus taught a lot about the hell and who goes there. And these people were exceptions and noteworthy stories in the bible. So I think they are important passages to reflect on. To see what is different about these stories. I see humility, each confessing they are sinners and in need of Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

Those who were saved under the Law, when you cut to the bottom line, were saved or lost by being honest with themselves, or not!

For example, the rich young ruler asked Christ what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus replied, keep the commandments. Then the young man told a lie, he said that he had kept the law from his youth and up.

If the young man had been honest with himself instead of being self-righteous, he would have seen that he had not keep the Law. But those who were honest as the man in the temple who cried out, "God be merciful to me a sinner" they placed faith in the coming Messiah, and not their ability to keep the Law.

Christ stood in front of a large crowd of Jews and said, "did not Moses give you the Law, and none of you have kept it."

Paul told us that the Law was to "point to Christ." They were to be honest and admit they were not keeping the Law. This is where the Sacrificial System came into effect. They were to place their faith in the blood of the sacrifice of the animal, which represented Christ. But this could only happen if they were honest with themselves, admitting they were sinners in need of a Savior, which most would not do in their self-righteousness.

This is the reason they put Christ to death! They didn't need a Savior of the soul, they needed a Savior to release them from the bondage of the Romans. The Jews believed they were saved by the mere fact they were of the natural seed of Abraham their father. They didn't want or need the Suffering Lamb, so they thought.

Amen and well said! The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms, yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus unto salvation. The rich young ruler missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (Matthew 19:21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life.

 

[Lambano]

Sometimes these wooden, mechanical views of salvation make me want to roll my eyes.

We're told we can come to Jesus in trust, and that will set us right with God. That's what the word "justification" means.

In trust, we identify with Jesus, and He identifies with us. And Jesus's identification with the poor and the sick and the imprisoned and the lost and the lonely of humanity may extend beyond us; that's up to Him. If Jesus wants to reward someone who showed kindness to Him, that's also His call, not yours, not mine. You wanna be the one to tell Him, "Lord, You can't DO that!"?

In other words, God is sovereign over salvation. He saves whom He wants to save. All these arguments boil down to guessing who He's gonna save and who He's not, tinged with the unspoken anxiety about whether He's going to save Me. And maybe the perverse desire to make The Other Guy feel just as anxious.

But if this what Jesus does, and if we identify with Jesus as He identifies with us, we should want to go and do likewise.

 

[dev553344]

Just to point out the common theme of the 3 scriptural passages from the OP. Each of those people were sinners sought the Lord for mercy, not denying they were sinners and perhaps confessing it.

 

[dev553344]

Sometimes these wooden, mechanical views of salvation make me want to roll my eyes.

We're told we can come to Jesus in trust, and that will set us right with God. That's what the word "justification" means.

In trust, we identify with Jesus, and He identifies with us. And Jesus's identification with the poor and the sick and the imprisoned and the lost and the lonely of humanity may extend beyond us; that's up to Him. If Jesus wants to reward someone who showed kindness to Him, that's also His call, not yours, not mine. You wanna be the one to tell Him, "Lord, You can't DO that!"?

In other words, God is sovereign over salvation. He saves whom He wants to save. All these arguments boil down to guessing who He's gonna save and who He's not, tinged with the unspoken anxiety about whether He's going to save Me. And maybe the perverse desire to make The Other Guy feel just as anxious.

But if this what Jesus does, and if we identify with Jesus as He identifies with us, we should want to go and do likewise.

Yes that has always been my stance and I have accepted it. That Jesus is Lord and judge of salvation. He will decide who is saved and who is damned.

 

[Lambano]

Yes that has always been my stance and I have accepted it. That Jesus is Lord and judge of salvation. He will decide who is saved and who is damned.

Kinda hard to argue against that position.

 

[amigo de christo]

Just to point out the common theme of the 3 scriptural passages from the OP. Each of those people were sinners sought the Lord for mercy, not denying they were sinners and perhaps confessing it.

The pharisee saw himself as self righteous . The other was aware of His Dire need for mercy of GOD . A massive difference indeed .
The one who humbled himself saw himself as a man in dire need of the LORD and His mercy . He hated the very evils of his flesh .

 

[amigo de christo]

The pharisee saw himself as righteous . He in no way saw himself as a sinner in need of the mercy o God .

 

[amigo de christo]

Even in other places they said things like , YOU were altogether born in sins and ye try and teach us . They told that
to the man who had been blind and now saw . THEY saw themselves as RIGHTEOUS and far better than others .

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, I am strongly convinced that we have different interpretations of the bible and what is said and how it works. So I'll just agree to disagree.

Thanks for your time. I learned a different perspective than mine. But I will in the end keep my beliefs.

But you have not cleared up all the problems. contradictions your beliefs create.