Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[GEN2REV]

You want to talk about John 1:1. So I'm posting stuff about John 1:1.

I don't want to talk about John 1:1.

I'm perfectly content and at peace with John 1:1.

I know exactly what God meant when He inspired John to speak of The Word.

He meant Jesus Christ and no amount of dissecting the words or language can discount all of the rest of the Bible that defines what is meant there.

Logos, lagos, pogos, pagos blah, blah, blah. It makes zero difference whatsoever. All that matters is how the rest of the Scripture defines it.

And it defines The Word as Jesus Christ.

Plain and simple.

And you can't dissect, or explain, that away.

 

[Matthias]

You are challenging my response that the thief went to be with Jesus.

I’m not challenging what Jesus said to the thief. I simply asked you where paradise is.

 

[atpollard]

I’m not challenging what Jesus said to the thief. I simply asked you where paradise is.

With Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

With Jesus.

I commented in post # 530 that I agreed with that, which you say is challenging your response.

I’m content to leave it at that.

 

[atpollard]

I commented in post # 530 that I agreed with that, which you say is challenging your response.

I’m content to leave it at that.

Post #530:

If not here then there. But where is there?



With a person, yes. But the person himself isn’t paradise, is he?

… you have a strange way of wording “I agree”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That is why I quoted all those different translations by all those different Scholars and groups of scholars … they all placed the coma in the same place.

That would be because they were all trinitarian scholars......what else would they do?
The comma placed where it should be agrees with the rest of the Bible....Jesus wasn't in paradise that day....he didn't ascend to his Father for 40 days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3).....and heaven is not paradise....Eden was the first paradise.

Place the coma before the word “today” and you get the Biblical meaning intended by Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Author.

No, sorry...it makes Jesus contradict himself. He said that he would be confined in his tomb for three days, just like Jonah was confined to the belly of the fish. (Matthew 12:40)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Moving the comma doesn't change anything.. This verse doesn't fit your theology so you dismiss it. YLT translates it the same way so does the NASB95 and just about every other translation.

Moving the comma changes the whole meaning of Jesus' statement. If there was no comma in Greek, then the English translators put it there, not Luke.
All those translators were trinitarians, so of course they would render it according to their beliefs.

What did Luke believe about the Messiah? He was Jewish and they did not think for one moment that Jesus was God, nor did they believe that his resurrection was anything other than the Jewish expectation of a resurrection. They expected him to be resurrected as a human and to establish his Kingdom on earth.....but he told them to wait in Jerusalem for the promised holy spirit, and all would revealed to them. Even as he was going away they asked if he was establishing his Kingdom in Israel at that time? (Acts 1:6) Even then they had not grasped the idea of going to heaven.

Jesus' appearances after his resurrection were odd to say the least....sometimes they recognized him and other times they did not. He "appeared" and "disappeared", meaning that he was not raised as a human, but in keeping with Jewish Law, it was forbidden to communicate with spirits....so he materialized in a fleshly body, like angels had done in the past. (The three angels who visited Abraham at Mamre, and Gabriel's visit to Daniel and Mary, for example) Spirit creatures can materialize. He made a body with wound marks to convince a doubting Thomas, but at other times no wounds were mentioned. He was in a bad physical state when he died, so it makes no sense to take back the body he sacrificed. When Jesus resurrected the dead, they rose physically well....cured of the illness that took their life.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, a cloud caught him from their vision as he disappeared from view. He did not go physically into heaven.....flesh cannot exist anywhere but on earth.....because its where God intended for us to live forever.

 

[RLT63]

Moving the comma changes the whole meaning of Jesus' statement. If there was no comma in Greek, then the English translators put it there, not Luke.
All those translators were trinitarians, so of course they would render it according to their beliefs.

What did Luke believe about the Messiah? He was Jewish and they did not think for one moment that Jesus was God, nor did they believe that his resurrection was anything other than the Jewish expectation of a resurrection. They expected him to be resurrected as a human and to establish his Kingdom on earth.....but he told them to wait in Jerusalem for the promised holy spirit, and all would revealed to them. Even as he was going away they asked if he was establishing his Kingdom in Israel at that time? (Acts 1:6) Even then they had not grasped the idea of going to heaven.

Jesus' appearances after his resurrection were odd to say the least....sometimes they recognized him and other times they did not. He "appeared" and "disappeared", meaning that he was not raised as a human, but in keeping with Jewish Law, it was forbidden to communicate with spirits....so he materialized in a fleshly body, like angels had done in the past. (The three angels who visited Abraham at Mamre, and Gabriel's visit to Daniel and Mary, for example) Spirit creatures can materialize. He made a body with wound marks to convince a doubting Thomas, but at other times no wounds were mentioned. He was in a bad physical state when he died, so it makes no sense to take back the body he sacrificed. When Jesus resurrected the dead, they rose physically well....cured of the illness that took their life.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, a cloud caught him from their vision as he disappeared from view. He did not go physically into heaven.....flesh cannot exist anywhere but on earth.....because its where God intended for us to live forever.

Maybe the disciples didn't recognize him at first because his body had been beaten so badly and yes he still had his wounds. A Spirit wouldn't

 

[Aunty Jane]

Maybe the disciples didn't recognize him at first because his body had been beaten so badly and yes he still had his wounds. A Spirit wouldn't

You honestly believe that Jesus was raised in a badly beaten body when God had the power to resurrect him completely healed? Seriously?

 

[RLT63]

You honestly believe that Jesus was raised in a badly beaten body when God had the power to resurrect him completely healed? Seriously?

You believe Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. Where did his body go? What was the significance of the empty tomb? Why wasn't his body there? 1 John 4:2-3

 

[atpollard]

Luke 16 [NLT to avoid sematic debates]
"Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. The rich man shouted, 'Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.' But Abraham said to him, 'Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.'"
This is the state of the Afterlife before the Resurrection (according to Jesus, whom you are free to either believe or call a liar as it pleases you).

Luke 23 [NLT to avoid sematic debates]
[40-43] But the other criminal protested, "Don't you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn't done anything wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom." And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Today means Today ... not "in three days" and Paradise means Paradise ... not Heaven.
Did they (Jesus and the Thief) die that day? YES! The Romans made sure of it by thrusting a spear through Jesus' heart to confirm he was already dead and breaking the legs of the other men so they would suffocate quickly (before sunset).

[52-55] He went to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Then he took the body down from the cross and wrapped it in a long sheet of linen cloth and laid it in a new tomb that had been carved out of rock. This was done late on Friday afternoon, the day of preparation, as the Sabbath was about to begin. As his body was taken away, the women from Galilee followed and saw the tomb where his body was placed.
Jesus BODY was placed in a tomb for three days because Jesus died. One word - hypostasis - the perfect union of God and man in the person of Jesus Christ. The man Jesus was dead, but was God dead? Did the triune God cease to exist for three days ... in any part? Abraham died, did his soul cease to exist? Lazarus died, did his soul cease to exist? The rich man died, did his soul cease to exist?

So according to Jesus, where did Lazarus go when he died? ... "poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham" and "now he is here being comforted". Jesus already gave you your answer ... Paradise is the place where those that suffered go to be comforted ... a place inhabited by the Father of Faith.

Acts 2 [NLT to avoid sematic debates]
For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
According to Peter and the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), Jesus body was placed in a guarded tomb, but God would not leave Jesus' SOUL in the land of the dead [literally Sheol] nor would God allow Jesus' body to rot in that tomb. That means two things, Jesus visited the land of the dead (with Abraham and Lazarus and the Thief) THAT DAY ... and Jesus did not stay there.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You believe Jesus was resurrected as a spirit. Where did his body go? What was the significance of the empty tomb? Why wasn't his body there? 1 John 4:2-3

1John 4:1-3...
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.” (ESV)

First, we have a warning about false prophets, who were already in the world when this was written. So false teachings from those posing as God’s servants was nothing new even back in the first century.
It is God’s spirit that inspires confession that Jesus came in the flesh....no debate about that. We all acknowledge that God brought Jesus into the world in human form to sacrifice that body as the price paid for mankind’s redemption.
The spirit of the antichrist was surfacing even back then....so it’s nothing recent.

So why was the tomb empty? Because Jesus was resurrected. If there was a body in the tomb, according to Jewish belief, no resurrection had taken place. God had already foretold that he would not leave the sacrificed body of his son to rot in a grave, so God himself removed the body. We saw something similar with the body of Moses In Deuteronomy 34:5-6...
“So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day.” (ESV)

Jesus was the “prophet like Moses” that God had foretold. (Deuteronomy 18:15; 18-19) There are many similarities in the lives of these two men who both mediated covenants for God’s worshippers.

Jude actually adds some detail to this......
“But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.” (Jude.1:9-10)

What did the devil want with the body of Moses? Something he could use to lead Israel into idolatry perhaps, like he did with the copper serpent in the wilderness?
So what about Jesus’ body? What would men have done with that? What did “the church” (which was the only “Christianity” in existence for some 1500 years) do with relics considered to be holy or sacred? They idolised them....look at the shroud of Turin as an example. God was never going to allow that sort of abhorrence in connection with the sacrifice of his son.
He knew what they would do under influence from satan and disposed of Christ’s body as easily as he created it.

The scriptures answer all questions for those willing to put in the effort to know what it says.....not just the cherry picked verses that are quoted out of context.

 

[RLT63]

1John 4:1-3...
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.” (ESV)

First, we have a warning about false prophets, who were already in the world when this was written. So false teachings from those posing as God’s servants was nothing new even back in the first century.
It is God’s spirit that inspires confession that Jesus came in the flesh....no debate about that. We all acknowledge that God brought Jesus into the world in human form to sacrifice that body as the price paid for mankind’s redemption.
The spirit of the antichrist was surfacing even back then....so it’s nothing recent.

So why was the tomb empty? Because Jesus was resurrected. If there was a body in the tomb, according to Jewish belief, no resurrection had taken place. God had already foretold that he would not leave the sacrificed body of his son to rot in a grave, so God himself removed the body. We saw something similar with the body of Moses In Deuteronomy 34:5-6...
“So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord, and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day.” (ESV)

Jesus was the “prophet like Moses” that God had foretold. (Deuteronomy 18:15; 18-19) There are many similarities in the lives of these two men who both mediated covenant for God’s worshippers.

Jude actually adds some detail to this......
“But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.” (Jude.1:9-10)

What did the devil want with the body of Moses? Something he could use to lead Israel into idolatry perhaps, like he did with the copper serpent in the wilderness?
So what about Jesus’ body? What would men have done with that? What did “the church” (which was the only “Christianity” in existence for some 1500 years) do with relics considered to be holy or sacred? They idolised them....look at the shroud of Turin as an example. God was never going to allow that sort of abhorrence in connection with the sacrifice of his son.
He knew what they would do under influence from satan and disposed of Christ’s body as easily as he created it.

The scriptures answer all questions for those willing to put in the effort to know what it says.....not just the cherry picked verses that are quoted out of context.

"So why was the tomb empty? Because Jesus was resurrected. If there was a body in the tomb, according to Jewish belief, no resurrection had taken place. God had already foretold that he would not leave the sacrificed body of his son to rot in a grave, so God himself removed the body. We saw something similar with the body of Moses In Deuteronomy 34:5-6..."

This is pure speculation and not in the scriptures.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Luke 16 [NLT to avoid sematic debates]
"Finally, the poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. The rich man shouted, 'Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.' But Abraham said to him, 'Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.'"
This is the state of the Afterlife before the Resurrection (according to Jesus, whom you are free to either believe or call a liar as it pleases you).

Lets break this up.....Are you trying to avoid examining the scriptures in their entirety, or just in relation to your favored doctrines, which have no foundation in scripture BTW.

This is a parable amongst many others.....why single it out as if Jesus intended for this particular one to be literal?
Read it and see that a literal interpretation would be ridiculous.

Since you excluded the opening words of this parable, I will include them...
“There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence. 20 But a beggar named Lazʹa·rus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, even the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.”

Does it say that the rich man was wicked...or that the beggar was righteous? What does this situation picture? The Pharisees were listening and they were the ones pictured by the rich man, enjoying himself and his lifestyle, whilst the beggar was put 'at his gate', desiring even the droppings that may fall from the rich man’s table....he was never invited in even to catch the scraps.

The beggar pictures the “lost sheep” whom the Pharisees neglected to feed from the spiritual table they had, and fed only those they considered worthy of their time and attention. They were extremely poor shepherds as Jesus detailed in his other parables....a lost sheep was precious to God and should have been searched for and attended to with love. The spiritual beggars in Israel were neglected, and when Jesus came and began to feed them, they responded to his loving care for them......so the deaths of these two groups was an indication of a change in their status.....both died to their former positions.
“The bosom of Abraham” according to Jewish belief was a position of favor with God.....the rich man lost it, and the beggar gained it. The symbolism is staring you in the face, but false doctrines introduced by an apostate church centuries ago, have forced a different meaning into what Jesus actually taught.

Trying to make this parable literal, you must first invent so many things to explain why ‘heaven and hell’ are within speaking distance to one another...and also how a drop of water can cool someone who is in flames?

Please remember that the Jews did not have any teachings about heaven and hell, nor did their scriptures teach life after death, except by resurrection. There was no immortal soul in their scripture. The dead were unconscious in Sheol, where they would R.I.P until Messiah called them from their graves. (John 5:28-29; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Christendom imported all the nonsense about what happens after death, (which like paganism was designed to support the devil’s first lie.....”you surely will not die”)....it’s sitting there right under your noses, and you cannot see it. All of Christendom's doctrines are the works of men in apostasy....not God or his Christ.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Luke 23 [NLT to avoid sematic debates]
[40-43] But the other criminal protested, "Don't you fear God even when you have been sentenced to die? We deserve to die for our crimes, but this man hasn't done anything wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom." And Jesus replied, "I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise."
Today means Today ... not "in three days" and Paradise means Paradise ... not Heaven.
Did they (Jesus and the Thief) die that day? YES! The Romans made sure of it by thrusting a spear through Jesus' heart to confirm he was already dead and breaking the legs of the other men so they would suffocate quickly (before sunset).

When making a statement in the form of an oath, Jesus emphasized what he was stating *on that day*....that he would resurrect that man in the paradise to come. The thief was not a righteous man, he was paying for his crimes and had been ridiculing Jesus along with his companion just prior to this change of heart. Jesus was not promising the man a place in heaven because, he had already told his apostles that their place was assured because they had stuck with him in his trails...and had proven faithful to their death....this man had a last minute change of heart.....Jesus was assuring him that he would be with him in paradise, not heaven.

The spear thrust into Jesus’ side was to test whether he was already dead, it was not done to pierce his heart.
The prophesy concerning ‘not one of Jesus bones would be broken’ was fulfilled because he did not need his legs broken to hasten his death.

[52-55] He went to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. Then he took the body down from the cross and wrapped it in a long sheet of linen cloth and laid it in a new tomb that had been carved out of rock. This was done late on Friday afternoon, the day of preparation, as the Sabbath was about to begin. As his body was taken away, the women from Galilee followed and saw the tomb where his body was placed.
Jesus BODY was placed in a tomb for three days because Jesus died. One word - hypostasis - the perfect union of God and man in the person of Jesus Christ. The man Jesus was dead, but was God dead? Did the triune God cease to exist for three days ... in any part? Abraham died, did his soul cease to exist? Lazarus died, did his soul cease to exist? The rich man died, did his soul cease to exist?

Who told you that?
Hebrews 11:1....”
“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.”

The Greek word (hy·poʹsta·sis) rendered “assurance” there, was commonly used in ancient papyrus business documents to convey the idea of something that guarantees future possession. Scholars Moulton and Milligan suggest the rendering: “Faith is the title deed of things hoped for.” (Vocabulary of the Greek Testament) Obviously, if a person possesses the title deed to property, he can have the “assurance” that someday his hope to obtain it will be realized.
Your interpretation of that word is Catholic, not Christian. There is no such thing as a hypostatic union that makes Jesus into God.

Jesus died as a human, but since he was Jewish, there was no belief in an immortal soul, so his resurrection was the reversal of his birth....he was literally “born again” as a spirit to facilitate his return to heaven....just as his elect will experience when they are resurrected. Flesh and blood cannot exist in heaven.

God did not need to become a man and give his life because the Almighty is immortal and cannot die. He “sent” his son to carry out that mission...one whom the apostles called God’s “holy servant” (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

It was his God and Father who resurrected Jesus, and it was to his God and Father that Jesus prayed. Christendom’s version of God is too weird.....there are three different persons (gods) walking about in different places talking to one another....seriously?

Who told you this god even existed? It wasn’t Jesus or his apostles or the scriptures......it was the RCC.

 

[Aunty Jane]

So according to Jesus, where did Lazarus go when he died? ... "poor man died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham" and "now he is here being comforted". Jesus already gave you your answer ... Paradise is the place where those that suffered go to be comforted ... a place inhabited by the Father of Faith.

No sorry, that was never the case.....let me give you the example of another “Lazarus”....
John 11:11-14...
“...He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead”.

Where did Jesus say that his friend was? He was “asleep”...where was he “sleeping”? In the tomb out of which Jesus called him.....and so it will be in the coming resurrection of the dead. (John 5:28-29)
That parable was never meant to convey anything about life after death because the Jewish scriptures did not teach such a thing. “Dead” meant the opposite of “life”, not a continuation of it somewhere else.

Acts 2 [NLT to avoid sematic debates]
For David says concerning Him:
‘I foresaw the LORD always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
For You will not leave my soul in Hades,
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
According to Peter and the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4), Jesus body was placed in a guarded tomb, but God would not leave Jesus' SOUL in the land of the dead [literally Sheol] nor would God allow Jesus' body to rot in that tomb. That means two things, Jesus visited the land of the dead (with Abraham and Lazarus and the Thief) THAT DAY ... and Jesus did not stay there.

Wow, that is very twisted from what Jesus and the scriptures actually teach about death.
Did Jesus have a “soul” that lived on after the death of his body? The answer to that is NO! Why? Because a “soul” is a living, breathing, earth bound creature.....both humans and animals are called “souls” in the Bible. There is no such thing as an immortal soul because “souls” die. (Ezekiel 18:4) When they stop breathing, they cease to be a soul. They return to the dust.

The devil has you all hoodwinked.....you believe his lie just as Eve did. What did God tell Adam?
Genesis 3:19....
“In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” There is just life or death....nothing more.

The only way to live again according to scripture, is by resurrection.....either to heaven as one of God’s elect who will rule with Christ in heaven as “kings and priests” (Revelation 20:6)......or as the earthly subjects of God’s Kingdom who will enjoy the peaceful reign of God’s son in bringing the redeemed human race back into reconciliation with their Creator in paradise on earth. (Revelation 21:2-4)

 

[Wrangler]

"So why was the tomb empty? Because Jesus was resurrected ... This is pure speculation and not in the scriptures.

I must not understand what you are saying is speculation. Surely, you believe Jesus was resurrected?

 

[Wrangler]

I know exactly what God meant when He inspired John to speak of The Word.

Me too.

 

[RLT63]

I must not understand what you are saying is speculation. Surely, you believe Jesus was resurrected?

Because you didn't quote my post. GOD HIMSELF REMOVED THE BODY. please show me the verse that says this

 

[atpollard]

Lets break this up.....Are you trying to avoid examining the scriptures in their entirety, or just in relation to your favored doctrines, which have no foundation in scripture BTW.

This is a parable amongst many others.....why single it out as if Jesus intended for this particular one to be literal?
Read it and see that a literal interpretation would be ridiculous.

Since you excluded the opening words of this parable, I will include them...
“There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence. 20 But a beggar named Lazʹa·rus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, even the dogs would come and lick his ulcers.”

Does it say that the rich man was wicked...or that the beggar was righteous? What does this situation picture? The Pharisees were listening and they were the ones pictured by the rich man, enjoying himself and his lifestyle, whilst the beggar was put 'at his gate', desiring even the droppings that may fall from the rich man’s table....he was never invited in even to catch the scraps.

The beggar pictures the “lost sheep” whom the Pharisees neglected to feed from the spiritual table they had, and fed only those they considered worthy of their time and attention. They were extremely poor shepherds as Jesus detailed in his other parables....a lost sheep was precious to God and should have been searched for and attended to with love. The spiritual beggars in Israel were neglected, and when Jesus came and began to feed them, they responded to his loving care for them......so the deaths of these two groups was an indication of a change in their status.....both died to their former positions.
“The bosom of Abraham” according to Jewish belief was a position of favor with God.....the rich man lost it, and the beggar gained it. The symbolism is staring you in the face, but false doctrines introduced by an apostate church centuries ago, have forced a different meaning into what Jesus actually taught.

Trying to make this parable literal, you must first invent so many things to explain why ‘heaven and hell’ are within speaking distance to one another...and also how a drop of water can cool someone who is in flames?

Please remember that the Jews did not have any teachings about heaven and hell, nor did their scriptures teach life after death, except by resurrection. There was no immortal soul in their scripture. The dead were unconscious in Sheol, where they would R.I.P until Messiah called them from their graves. (John 5:28-29; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)

Christendom imported all the nonsense about what happens after death, (which like paganism was designed to support the devil’s first lie.....”you surely will not die”)....it’s sitting there right under your noses, and you cannot see it. All of Christendom's doctrines are the works of men in apostasy....not God or his Christ.

As I stated in my post … Jesus described the afterlife and everyone is free to believe Jesus told the truth about what it is like or believe Jesus lied about what it is like.

I made my choice and you made yours. [shrug]
What more is there to say on that subject.