Do you know what that means, staying on your side of the fence? You can google that expression.
Much love!
Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God
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Much love!
lol
Your [theological] fence was torn down. You’re living in the past.
I have you surrounded.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
@marks,
Nothing is more profound than people displaying the limits of their responsibility - by literally not responding. @Matthias asked you.
1. about the saviors Yahweh sent.
And I asked you
Three questions. We've asked you these 3 questions multiple times. Here is a 4th; why do you leave the arena of ideas when yours get scrutinized?
A 5th; why don't you admit you have weakness in being able to provide a reasonable answer that can withstand scrutiny?
Admitting you don't have a good answer would be better than just ignoring the question altogether. We are all here to learn and it is OK that one's theological understanding is not fully at a master level yet. For instance, my wife and I often lament that Christ has not already returned.
Much love!
Nothing is more profound than people displaying the limits of their responsibility - by literally not responding. @Matthias asked you.
1. about the saviors Yahweh sent.
And I asked you
Three questions. We've asked you these 3 questions multiple times. Here is a 4th; why do you leave the arena of ideas when yours get scrutinized?
A 5th; why don't you admit you have weakness in being able to provide a reasonable answer that can withstand scrutiny?
Admitting you don't have a good answer would be better than just ignoring the question altogether. We are all here to learn and it is OK that one's theological understanding is not fully at a master level yet. For instance, my wife and I often lament that Christ has not already returned.
Much love!
What it means is to take on speaking for others, taking both sides of the discussion. It's not good form. It's not productive. It's self-serving, self-affirming, and generally not accurate.
Much love!
Like I said . . . self-affirming.lol
Your [theological] fence was torn down. You’re living in the past.
I have you surrounded.
Like you said when I asked for your commentary on Yahweh sending saviors … * Crickets *
Your [theological] fence was torn down by you.
I asked you to further define your question, and why I was asking. You chose not to, and chose to continue in the personal way. So, there you go.
You could hear me about your conversational style, or not, your choice. Or you can continue to make up whatever fantasy about me you want to so you don't need to look that direction. It's up to you. But I'm not here to play these games.
When someone turns to personal comments, personal jabs, I'm done. Poor reasoning, logical fallacies, I'll point it out, and sometimes people will just get back on topic. Sometimes, though, it's just the beginning of the downward slide, and we don't need more of that.
Much love!
My question doesn’t need further defining. It comes plainly from scripture and I’ve already told you (and others) where, on numerous occasions.
You’re done. How many times have you told me that now? When will you convince yourself of that?
I‘ve endured your personal comments about me for months in order to give you time to do what you did.
You can’t control me and I don’t have any interest in or desire to control you.
I meant I was done with that topic. Not that I'd never address you again. But OK then. No need to endure any more, I won't trouble you again.
Much love!
You were done with that topic when you couldn’t explain how Yahweh sends saviors.
You aren’t any trouble to me. I’ve patiently endured much worse than what you’ve dished out.
You have an open invitation to address me anytime, anywhere, about anything. Do whatever you think best.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
The "beginning" is the start of something, not a continuation of it....
The Hebrew word here is "rē'šîṯ" and it mean "the beginning, the first" or the start of something.
Its Greek equivalent is "archē" which means...
- beginning, origin
- the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series.
So what is "the beginning" spoken about in John 1:1 and Revelation 3:14? Its the same word.
"1. beginning, origin;
a. used absolutely, of the beginning of all things: ἐν ἀρχῇ, John 1:1f (Genesis 1:1)" (Strongs)
Revelation 3:14 states that Jesus (The Amen and the Faithful Witness) is the "beginning of God's creation". He is not the "originator" or the "beginner", but the first of God's creations. That is a clear unequivocal statement from Jesus himself.
He also called his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3) without including himself, but stating that he was "sent" by his Father. Does one equal part of God "send" an equal part of himself?......one who is said to be his "holy servant" and an obedient son? (Acts 4:27; Philippians 2:8)
Since when does a son claim to be his own father?
When the scriptures were written, not a single Bible writer believed that Jesus was the Almighty. All were Jewish, and all knew that Messiah was what he called himself....."the son of God".
A "mike drop moment" only through the indoctrinated lens of the trinitarian.
I really couldn't care less what Jerome or the Vulgate have to say about this issue...I care only what Jesus and the apostles had to say about it. The wolves were snapping at the heels of the apostles when they wrote towards the end of the first century....apostasy was foretold and it took place over centuries, ever so gradually invalidating the word of God and substituting man made ideas into the words, just as the devil had influenced Judaism to do......who did Jesus say was their "father"? (John 8:44)...and what did he say about their interpretation of scripture? (Matthew 15:7-9)
History is repeating because humans can be counted on to fall for the devil's well tried and tested methods. (Ecclesiastes 1:9)
I'm sure that the devil has provided all the 'explanations' necessary to support their doctrines.....but the scriptures speak for themselves and there is more scripture that discredits the trinity than supports it. How do we know this? Because there is not a single passage of scripture that trinitarians use that is a clear an unambiguous statement from either Yahweh or his son that they are parts of a trinitarian godhead.
If there was, this debate would have long been laid to rest. But as it stands...it divides two camps.....those who are sure that Jesus is Yahweh, and those who are sure that he isn't. Who is to say who is right?
Who will let us all know at the judgment, which ones have the right information from the right people....and who have been horribly misled?
The "wheat" exist in a world of "weeds"....Jesus knows which is which, but those who identify as "believers" do not. He knows who are "sheep" and who are "goats" but according the Matthew 7:21-23, the "many" who will find themselves on the wrong road will be shocked at the rejection they receive, and the dead end to the road they traveled by their own free will. (Matthew 7:13-14)
God will only "draw" those in whom he finds an agreeable heart and a willingness to accept an unpopular truth. (John 6:44; 65)
"Few" are on the road to life for a reason.....there is no safety in numbers.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Rev 3:14 is devastating to trinitarian dogma. No wonder I haven’t seen any reply. Just ignore what does not support (which is the vast majority of Scripture).
A "mike drop moment"
Another "mike drop moment"
Another "mike drop moment". You are on such a roll!
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Logic dictates the one making the positive claim have the burden of proof. The fact that the trinity - the word or doctrine - is not in the Bible is an unrecoverable fact.
The trinity ‘could be’ right but not because of anything God said. So, there is that!
Isaiah 43:10-14 KJV
10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13) Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14) Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
Romans 10:9-11 KJV
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Nehemiah 9:27 KJV
27) Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
All speaking of the same thing? Is the One Who died for us to save us from our sins the same as the judge who rescues from an army?
Or is it this more like apples and oranges, the muddling together of different matters in different contexts, producing a faulty "proof"?
Much love!
10) Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11) I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
13) Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
14) Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.
Romans 10:9-11 KJV
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Nehemiah 9:27 KJV
27) Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
All speaking of the same thing? Is the One Who died for us to save us from our sins the same as the judge who rescues from an army?
Or is it this more like apples and oranges, the muddling together of different matters in different contexts, producing a faulty "proof"?
Much love!
Isaiah 45:21-24
21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I YHWH? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
Philippians 2:9-11 KJV
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
So simple a child can understand. Jesus and YHWH are One and the Same. Our Creator God Who Himself came to save us.
Much love!
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
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