Does John 1:1 say Jesus is God

[GEN2REV]

Heidelberg Catechism (1563)

Q15. What kind of mediator and deliverer
should we look for then?

A. One who is a true1 and righteous2 human,
yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.3

(1)
Romans 1:3 [NKJV] concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
1 Corinthians 15:21 [NKJV] For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
Hebrews 2:17 [NKJV] Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

(2)
Isaiah 53:9 [NKJV] And they made His grave with the wicked--But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
2 Corinthians 5:21 [NKJV] For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
Hebrews 7:26 [NKJV] For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;

(3)
Isaiah 7:14 [NKJV] "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel."
Isaiah 9:6 [NKJV] For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Jeremiah 23:6 [NKJV] In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
John 1:1 [NKJV] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Q16. Why must the mediator be a true and righteous human?

A. God’s justice demands that human nature, which has sinned, must pay for sin;1
but a sinful human could never pay for others.2

(1)
Romans 5:12 [NKJV] Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--
Romans 5:15 [NKJV] But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.
1 Corinthians 15:21 [NKJV] For since by man [came] death, by Man also [came] the resurrection of the dead.
Hebrews 2:14-16 [NKJV] In as much then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

(2)
Hebrews 7:26-27 [NKJV] For such a High Priest was fitting for us, [who is] holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
1 Peter 3:18 [NKJV] For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,

Q. Why must the mediator also be true God?

A. So that the mediator, by the power of his divinity, might bear the weight of God’s wrath in his humanity and earn for us and restore to us righteousness and life.1

(1)
Isaiah 53 [NKJV]
Who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,
And as a root out of dry ground.
He has no form or comeliness;
And when we see Him,
There is no beauty that we should desire Him.
He is despised and rejected by men,
A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Surely He has borne our griefs
And carried our sorrows;
Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,p
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.
John 3:16 [NKJV] "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
2 Corinthians 5:21 [NKJV] For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Nice contribution, ATP.

Please take a moment and let your voice be heard.

Cast your vote here: Should CB allow Anti-Christ threads?

 

[atpollard]

Well that was a well documented response ....I guess you have no defense for your beliefs then...?

Jane,
The Apostle John and the Holy Spirit recalled Genesis 1 when they presented the penultimate argument that Jesus Christ, the word incarnate, is the same GOD that created everything that exists in Genesis 1 … and you reject the testimony of the Apostle and the Holy Spirit.

What words could I possibly add that might convince you after you have rejected THEIR testimony?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus defended God's Word because He IS God

There is NO scripture where Jesus ever says that he is God...or even God’s equal.....NOT ONE.

The title he bears as “the Logos” means “the Word of God” is a title, indicating one who speaks God’s words...a spokesman, which role Jesus played both before and after his earthly mission.

The “word of God” can also mean his written word, which was conveyed to God’s worshippers regularly when they met for worship. These were written for the instruction of God’s people.

The author of those “words” is one, spoken by Christ and also recorded by his OT and NT prophets.....that author is Yahweh. He is “the only true God” according to Jesus himself. (John 17:3; Deuteronomy 6:4) Jesus is the one he “sent” as his “holy servant”.....(Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant?

Jesus is the appointed “mediator between God and men” (1 Timothy 2:5-6)....so how can he be God?
A mediator is one who facilitates communication and reconciliation between two estranged parties. How can Jesus be a mediator between God and men, if he is God?

Jesus is also God’s appointed Hight Priest (Hebrews 3:1) Please tell me how God becomes his own High Priest? The trinity has more holes than Christendom’s interpretation of scripture can fill.

No, but I always wonder why you are even here on this Christian Forum.

Every single position you push is Anti-Christian and diminishes the authority of Scripture.

You don’t seem to realise how old the foretold “apostasy” is....the “weeds” of Jesus’ parable were not sown recently....it’s centuries old, and so entrenched that no one wants to challenge what they have been indoctrinated to believe.
The fear of God that is promoted in scripture, is not the same as the fear of Hell. It’s not the same kind of fear at all, but that is the fear “the church” used to coerce people into obedience and compliance.

What is “diminished” is not the authority of scripture, but the authority of a corrupt and dying church system.
The “antichrist” is alive and well and has been feeding people spiritual poison for many centuries. The time for spiritual cleansing was foretold to take place at “the time of end” where we find ourselves now. Only then was God to “cleanse, purify and refine” his worshippers, by providing “abundant knowledge” at this time. The “wicked” are those who love and perpetuate unscriptural lies. They were not going to receive any insight or understanding. (Daniel 12:9-10)

“Babylon the great” is the mother of many daughters, all of whom are as reprehensible as their disgusting mother for the lies they have fed to people, generation after generation. We are told to “get out of her” if we do not want to receive her punishments. (Revelation 18:4-5)

This is the time for decisions to be made about where we stand.....and the decisions we make about what is truth, will determine our eternal future.....this is why I am here....to tell the truth as I have been granted understanding of it in these last days.

To be found on the wrong road, with the misled majority is not my aim. I want to be found on the right road, with an informed and hated minority. (Matthew 7:13-14; John 15:18-21) And I want to give people food for thought, as God is judging their response to something that is not mainstream...not accepted by an ignorant majority. Their fate will be made known to them at the judgment, and it will come as a complete shock them. (Matthew 7:21-23)

No one will be able to say that they were not told the truth, but many will not want to hear it, preferring to act like the Jews in Jesus’ day....choosing to stay with an accepting majority rather than listen to a hated group who were trying to expose the lies that they had been fed for centuries.

Powerful men in powerful positions corrupted everything Jesus taught. Are we to be found aiding and abetting them...or are we to expose them for what they are, like Jesus did?

There are only two sides to this issue.....Jesus will only decide between “sheep and goats”....there are no others. So which one we are, is not our judgment to make.....Jesus already knows who we are....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jane,
The Apostle John and the Holy Spirit recalled Genesis 1 when they presented the penultimate argument that Jesus Christ, the word incarnate, is the same GOD that created everything that exists in Genesis 1 … and you reject the testimony of the Apostle and the Holy Spirit.

That is not true....that is what Christendom interprets from the words of the Bible.
The son is nowhere said to be the Creator because he is not God.

Colossians 1:15-17 says.....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.” (NASB)

Read the highlighted parts again......this does not say that Jesus is the Creator, but that he was the agency “through” whom all things were created. Unless you understand the principle of agency, you will misinterpret what is says because of your indoctrination. You will read what was never there.
It was also created ”for” him....

Proverbs 8:29-31....
“When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men.” (NASB)
This indicates that God was not alone in creation.....he had a “master workman” assisting him, and working under his Father’s direction. His “firstborn” was the one who was fully involved in the creation of all things.
He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.

What words could I possibly add that might convince you after you have rejected THEIR testimony?

It’s NOT their testimony.....it’s been misinterpreted by a corrupt church system and added for you.....and you accept these things without question.......I reject Christendom’s interpretation of the Bible....and I accept the truth that is found in the entirety of what scripture teaches, not the falsehoods introduced by the weeds so long ago that people never bother to question them......or are too scare to.
In a world ruled by the devil, we must do our research thoroughly. Satan cannot corrupt the Bible, but like he did in Jesus’ day, he can corrupt the way men read and interpret it.
The first century Jews listened to their corrupt religious leaders and lost their place in God’s Kingdom.

History will repeat because people prefer to be in ignorance....they don’t want the truth because it requires them to change, and they have no desire to alter their view, even when shown that it is in error.

 

[Peterlag]

It's important to understand that the Bible was not written in a vacuum, but was recorded in the context of a culture and was understood by those who lived in that culture. Sometimes verses that seem superfluous to us were meaningful to the reader of the time because they were well aware of the culture and beliefs being propounded by those around them. In the first century, there were many competing beliefs in the world (and unfortunately, erroneous beliefs in Christendom) that were confusing believers about the identities of God and Christ. For centuries before Christ, and at the time the New Testament was written, the irrational beliefs about the gods of Greece had been handed down. This body of religious information was known by the word "muthos" which we today call "myths" or "mythology." This muthos, these myths, were often irrational, mystical and beyond understanding or explanation. The more familiar one is with the Greek myths, the better we will understand our emphasis on their irrationality. If one is unfamiliar with them, it would be valuable to read a little on the subject. Greek mythology is an important part of the cultural background of the New Testament.

The myths were often incomprehensible, but nevertheless, they had been widely accepted as the "revelation of the gods." The pervasiveness of the muthos in the Greco-Roman world of the New Testament can be seen sticking up out of the New Testament like the tip of an iceberg above the water. When Paul and Barnabas healed a cripple in Lystra, the people assumed that the gods had come down in human form, and the priest of Zeus came to offer sacrifices to them. While Paul was in Athens, he became disturbed because of the large number of idols there that were statues to the various gods. In Ephesus, Paul's teaching actually started a riot. When some of the locals realized that if his doctrine spread, "... the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty" (Acts 19:27). There are many other examples that show that there was a muthos, i.e., a body of religious knowledge that was in large part incomprehensible to the human mind, firmly established in the minds of some of the common people in New Testament times.

Starting several centuries before Christ, certain Greek philosophers worked to replace the muthos with what they called the logos, a reasonable and rational explanation of reality. It's appropriate that in the writing of the New Testament, God used the word logos, not muthos, to describe His wisdom, reason, and plan. God has not come to us in mystical experiences and irrational beliefs that cannot be understood; rather He reveals Himself in ways that can be rationally understood and persuasively argued. In addition to the cultural context that accepted the myths, at the time John was written, a belief system called Gnosticism was taking root in Christianity. Gnosticism had many ideas and words that are strange and confusing to us today, and so at the risk of oversimplifying, we will describe a few basic tenets of Gnosticism as simply as we can.

Gnosticism took many forms, but generally Gnostics taught that there was a supreme and unknowable Being, which they designated as the "Monad." The Monad produced various gods, who in turn produced other gods (these gods were called by different names, in part because of their power or position). One of these gods, called the "Demiurge" created the earth and then ruled over it as an angry, evil and jealous god. This evil god, Gnostics believed, was the god of the Old Testament, called Elohim. The Monad sent another god, "Christ" to bring special gnosis (knowledge) to mankind and free them from the influence of the evil Elohim. Thus, a Gnostic Christian would agree that Elohim created the heavens and earth, but he would not agree that He was the supreme God. Most Gnostics would also state that Elohim and Christ were at cross-purposes with each other. This is why it was so important for John 1:1 to say that the logos was with God, which at first glance seems to be a totally unnecessary statement.

 

[Jim B]

It's important to understand that the Bible was not written in a vacuum, but was recorded in the context of a culture and was understood by those who lived in that culture. Sometimes verses that seem superfluous to us were meaningful to the reader of the time because they were well aware of the culture and beliefs being propounded by those around them. In the first century, there were many competing beliefs in the world (and unfortunately, erroneous beliefs in Christendom) that were confusing believers about the identities of God and Christ. For centuries before Christ, and at the time the New Testament was written, the irrational beliefs about the gods of Greece had been handed down. This body of religious information was known by the word "muthos" which we today call "myths" or "mythology." This muthos, these myths, were often irrational, mystical and beyond understanding or explanation. The more familiar one is with the Greek myths, the better we will understand our emphasis on their irrationality. If one is unfamiliar with them, it would be valuable to read a little on the subject. Greek mythology is an important part of the cultural background of the New Testament.

The myths were often incomprehensible, but nevertheless, they had been widely accepted as the "revelation of the gods." The pervasiveness of the muthos in the Greco-Roman world of the New Testament can be seen sticking up out of the New Testament like the tip of an iceberg above the water. When Paul and Barnabas healed a cripple in Lystra, the people assumed that the gods had come down in human form, and the priest of Zeus came to offer sacrifices to them. While Paul was in Athens, he became disturbed because of the large number of idols there that were statues to the various gods. In Ephesus, Paul's teaching actually started a riot. When some of the locals realized that if his doctrine spread, "... the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited, and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty" (Acts 19:27). There are many other examples that show that there was a muthos, i.e., a body of religious knowledge that was in large part incomprehensible to the human mind, firmly established in the minds of some of the common people in New Testament times.

Starting several centuries before Christ, certain Greek philosophers worked to replace the muthos with what they called the logos, a reasonable and rational explanation of reality. It's appropriate that in the writing of the New Testament, God used the word logos, not muthos, to describe His wisdom, reason, and plan. God has not come to us in mystical experiences and irrational beliefs that cannot be understood; rather He reveals Himself in ways that can be rationally understood and persuasively argued. In addition to the cultural context that accepted the myths, at the time John was written, a belief system called Gnosticism was taking root in Christianity. Gnosticism had many ideas and words that are strange and confusing to us today, and so at the risk of oversimplifying, we will describe a few basic tenets of Gnosticism as simply as we can.

Gnosticism took many forms, but generally Gnostics taught that there was a supreme and unknowable Being, which they designated as the "Monad." The Monad produced various gods, who in turn produced other gods (these gods were called by different names, in part because of their power or position). One of these gods, called the "Demiurge" created the earth and then ruled over it as an angry, evil and jealous god. This evil god, Gnostics believed, was the god of the Old Testament, called Elohim. The Monad sent another god, "Christ" to bring special gnosis (knowledge) to mankind and free them from the influence of the evil Elohim. Thus, a Gnostic Christian would agree that Elohim created the heavens and earth, but he would not agree that He was the supreme God. Most Gnostics would also state that Elohim and Christ were at cross-purposes with each other. This is why it was so important for John 1:1 to say that the logos was with God, which at first glance seems to be a totally unnecessary statement.

Thanks for this very informative post.

 

[Peterlag]

The opening of the gospel of John is a wonderful expression of God's love. God "...wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (Timothy 2:4). He authored the opening of John in such a way that it reveals the truth about Him and His plan for all of mankind and, at the same time, refutes Gnostic teaching. It says that from the beginning there was the logos (the reason, plan, power) which was with God. There was not another "god" existing with God, especially not a god opposed to God. Furthermore, God's plan was like God; it was divine. God's plan became flesh when God impregnated Mary. There are elements of John 1:1 and other phrases in the introduction of John that not only refer back in time to God's work in the original creation, but also foreshadow the work of Christ in the new administration and the new creation. Noted Bible commentator F.F. Bruce argues for this interpretation:

It is not by accident that the Gospel begins with the same phrase as the book of Genesis. In Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning" introduces the story of the old creation; here it introduces the story of the new creation. In both works of creation the agent is the Word of God. The Racovian Catechism, one of the great doctrinal works of the Unitarian movement of the 14th and 15th centuries, states that the word "beginning" in John 1:1 refers to the beginning of the new dispensation and thus is similar to Mark 1:1, which starts, "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ..."

In the cited passage (John 1:1) wherein the Word is said to have been in the beginning, there is no reference to an antecedent eternity, without commencement; because mention is made here of a beginning, which is opposed to that eternity. But the word beginning, used absolutely, is to be understood of the subject matter under consideration. Thus, Daniel 8:1 (ASV), "In the third year of the reign of king Belshazzar a vision appeared to me, even unto me, Daniel, after that which appeared unto me at the first." John 15:27 (ASV), "And ye also shall bear witness because ye have been with me from the beginning." John 16:4, "...these things I said not unto you from the beginning because I was with you. And Acts 11:15 (ASV), "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, even as on us at the beginning." As then the matter of which John is treating is the gospel, or the things transacted under the gospel, nothing else ought to be understood here besides the beginning of the gospel; a matter clearly known to the Christians whom he addressed, namely the advent and preaching of John the Baptist, according to the testimony of all the evangelists [i.e., Matthew, Mark Luke and John], each of whom begins his history with the coming and preaching of the Baptist. Mark indeed (Chapter 1:1) expressly states that this was the beginning of the gospel. In like manner, John himself employs the word beginning, placed thus absolutely, in the introduction to his First Epistle, at which beginning he uses the same term (logos) Word, as if he meant to be his own interpreter ["That which is from the beginning... concerning the Word (logos) of life." 1 John 1:1].

While we do not agree with the Catechism that the only meaning of beginning in John 1:1 is the beginning of the new creation, we certainly see how the word beginning is a double entendre. In the context of the new creation, then, "the Word" is the plan or purpose according to which God is restoring His creation. To fully understand any passage of Scripture, it's imperative to study the context. To fully understand John 1:1, the rest of the chapter needs to be understood as well, and the rest of the chapter adds more understanding to John 1:1.

In closing I would like to say that I put this 6 part teaching together that I first shared here in the last 6 days from notes I have had on John 1:1 since 2005 with the goal in mind of answering the many good people on this Christian site who keep asking if I ever read John 1:1. And some of them included that I should read it again and more carefully. In responding I would like to say yes, I have read John 1:1, and I have read it very carefully.

 

[Wrangler]

It's not Christendom's version of things that have claimed Jesus to be God. It's the Bible.

Not in the Bible one time. In the Bible 37 times is that he is the Son of God.

Matthew 15:6 So, for the sake of your tradition, you nullify the word[a] of God.​

 

[Wrangler]

Now it's "Nowhere is the Holy Spirit ever called God!"

Rom 8:9-11 explains that the Holy Spirit is God.

Nope. There is no God the Holy Spirit verse. Rom 8:9-11 is talking about an attribute of God, his spirit, not a different person.

 

[atpollard]

That is not true....that is what Christendom interprets from the words of the Bible.
The son is nowhere said to be the Creator because he is not God.

Colossians 1:15-17 says.....
“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.” (NASB)

Read the highlighted parts again......this does not say that Jesus is the Creator, but that he was the agency “through” whom all things were created. Unless you understand the principle of agency, you will misinterpret what is says because of your indoctrination. You will read what was never there.
It was also created ”for” him....

Proverbs 8:29-31....
“When He set for the sea its boundary So that the water would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth; Then I was beside Him, as a master workman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, Rejoicing in the world, His earth, And having my delight in the sons of men.” (NASB)
This indicates that God was not alone in creation.....he had a “master workman” assisting him, and working under his Father’s direction. His “firstborn” was the one who was fully involved in the creation of all things.
He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.


It’s NOT their testimony.....it’s been misinterpreted by a corrupt church system and added for you.....and you accept these things without question.......I reject Christendom’s interpretation of the Bible....and I accept the truth that is found in the entirety of what scripture teaches, not the falsehoods introduced by the weeds so long ago that people never bother to question them......or are too scare to.
In a world ruled by the devil, we must do our research thoroughly. Satan cannot corrupt the Bible, but like he did in Jesus’ day, he can corrupt the way men read and interpret it.
The first century Jews listened to their corrupt religious leaders and lost their place in God’s Kingdom.

History will repeat because people prefer to be in ignorance....they don’t want the truth because it requires them to change, and they have no desire to alter their view, even when shown that it is in error.

That’s what I said … if you reject John’s words, what could I possibly say to change your mind.

 

[atpollard]

[John 1:14 NASB95] 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

[John 1:1 NASB95] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Did the Word become flesh? Is that Jesus?
Was the Word God?
I must be ‘simple’, because this seems pretty obvious to me from what John wrote.

Jesus is God incarnate.

 

[atpollard]

[In the last clause of John 1:1] John has no article before theos, God. The logos therefore, is not identified as God or with God; the word theos has become an adjectival and describes the sphere to which the logos belongs. We would therefore have to say that this means that the logos belongs to the same sphere as God; without being identified with God, the logos has the same kind of life and being as God. Here the NEB [New English Bible] finds the perfect translation: "What God was, the Word was."

How is this not a distinction without a difference?
What other things belong in the same infinite “sphere” as God that are not God?

[Exodus 15:11 NKJV] 11 "Who [is] like You, O LORD, among the gods? Who [is] like You, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders?

[1 Samuel 2:2 NKJV] 2 "No one is holy like the LORD, For [there is] none besides You, Nor [is there] any rock like our God.

[2 Samuel 7:22 NKJV] 22 "Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For [there is] none like You, nor [is there any] God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

 

[Peterlag]

How is this not a distinction without a difference?
What other things belong in the same infinite “sphere” as God that are not God?

[Exodus 15:11 NKJV] 11 "Who [is] like You, O LORD, among the gods? Who [is] like You, glorious in holiness, Fearful in praises, doing wonders?

[1 Samuel 2:2 NKJV] 2 "No one is holy like the LORD, For [there is] none besides You, Nor [is there] any rock like our God.

[2 Samuel 7:22 NKJV] 22 "Therefore You are great, O Lord GOD. For [there is] none like You, nor [is there any] God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

I would respond if I understood what you're asking.

 

[atpollard]

I would respond if I understood what you're asking.

Paraphrase of the Bible ... "GOD is one of a kind and so far above EVERYTHING ELSE that there is NOTHING LIKE HIM ... not even other gods."
Paraphrase of your comment on LOGOS ... "John 1:1 says Logos is LIKE God, but it does not say that LOGOS is God"

If NOTHING is like God but God ... and Logos is like God: How are you not making a distinction ("the logos has the same kind of life and being as God") without a difference (paraphrase: but the Logos is not God).

What else is LIKE GOD ("in the same sphere as God") but NOT GOD (as you seem to claim the LOGOS is)?
The verses that I quoted all seem to say that NOTHING but GOD is like GOD! (the essence of Jewish monotheism)

 

[Wrangler]

Was the Word God?

No, not literally. The logos of theos is not theos. Being of God, it is divine but not a deity.

The word was God is a figurative expression. The word was a god, with divine authority is literally correct.

This refrain will help you keep this straight. Words are WHAT’s not WHO’s.

 

[GEN2REV]

Nope. There is no God the Holy Spirit verse. Rom 8:9-11 is talking about an attribute of God, his spirit, not a different person.

Your Anti-Jesus rage keeps you from seeing that those verses refer to the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God interchangeably.

You can't hide your eyes and heart from The Truth forever.

Your eyes, too, shall see Him and your own heretical knees will bow.

Like it or not.

 

[Wrangler]

Your Anti-Jesus rage keeps you from seeing that those verses refer to the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God interchangeably.

Not at all. You fail again to grasp agency. There is one God, who has a Spirit. This spirit was given to Jesus at his baptism for one reason; Jesus is not God.

Through Jesus, we are gifted God’s spirit. God has chosen to reconcile us to him through his agent, through his servant Jesus. Having God’s spirit does not make us God.

 

[Peterlag]

Paraphrase of the Bible ... "GOD is one of a kind and so far above EVERYTHING ELSE that there is NOTHING LIKE HIM ... not even other gods."
Paraphrase of your comment on LOGOS ... "John 1:1 says Logos is LIKE God, but it does not say that LOGOS is God"

If NOTHING is like God but God ... and Logos is like God: How are you not making a distinction ("the logos has the same kind of life and being as God") without a difference (paraphrase: but the Logos is not God).

What else is LIKE GOD ("in the same sphere as God") but NOT GOD (as you seem to claim the LOGOS is)?
The verses that I quoted all seem to say that NOTHING but GOD is like GOD! (the essence of Jewish monotheism)

You lost me.

 

[Peterlag]

A note on John 8:58... "I am"

Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the "I am" (the Yahweh of the Old Testament) so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying "I am" does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said "I am the man" and the Greek reads exactly like the statement Jesus made when he said "I am." The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as "I am" and the other as "I am the man" (John 9:9) is one reason it's hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as "I am" (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying "I am" did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C.K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi ["I am"] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. "I am the one... the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God."

The phrase "I am" occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as "I am he" or some equivalent ("I am he"... Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19, 18:5,6 and 8. "it is I"... Matthew 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. "...I am the one I claim to be..." John 8:24 and 28). It's obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it's interesting that the phrase is translated as "I am" only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated "I am he" or "I am the one" like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was) spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

The point is this: "I am" was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively "existed" in Abraham's time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he "existed" in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of "existing" in God's foreknowledge. Verse 56... "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." This verse says that Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquers the earth and sets up his kingdom.

That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: "For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still in the future, yet the Bible says Abraham "saw" it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham "saw" the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham "saw" it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God's plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was 'before" Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man's redemption long before Abraham lived.

In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus is the "I am" in John 8:58 that would make him God, his statement must be equivalent with God's "I am" statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean "I am" the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means "to be" or "to become." In other words God is saying "I will be what I will be." Thus, "I am" in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said "I am" did not make him God.

 

[marks]

The point is this: "I am" was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God. The argument is made that because Jesus was "before" Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively "existed" in Abraham's time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he "existed" in the mind of God as God's plan for the redemption of man.

You claim it figurative, but Jesus didn't present it that way. And in His conclusion, He affirms what He meant in His statement of pre-existance.

"Before Abraham did exist, I do exist". Jesus didn't only say that He existed before Abraham, He said that He exists presently before Abraham did previously.

Either you can conclude Jesus to be in fact YHWH (the only God, I know no other) or you can conlude as you have, that He didn't mean it.

His audience didn't take it that way, though, expressing their incredulity. Which is also like now.

Much love!