John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?

[Kermos]

The Jews, like modern-day trinitarians, misunderstood Jesus. He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. So just to clarify, what you are saying is because Jesus used "I am" you believe this makes Jesus God and on these words hang all the complex formula of the Trinity?

The truth is that Jesus understood the meaning on 1 Timothy 3:16 and how he was always in the Mind of the Father from before the beginning. The name was a prophetic declaration of the divine purpose...not once has a trinitarian ever acknowledged this truth as though it's not even important. It's as though the doctrine of the Trinity removes every single divine principle of God manifestation for fear of what? removing it's lies? It must because in all the time I have written in this forum not once have I seen a Trinitarian speak to the subject of God manifestation or the meaning of God's name and how that name was fulfilled in Christ? Why is that Kermos? Is it because you dont want to given ground?

"the word" logos "made flesh." in John 1:14. As such, Jesus was the expression of the divine character, "full of grace and truth" John 1:14 cmp Exodus 33:19, and became the "firstborn among many brethren". Romans 8:29. Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." John 8:42.

I wont go into the translation issues with John 8:58 right now but they certainly exist and the rabbit hole only proves that much has been made of the "I am" which is not as clear as Trinitarians would like.

Something else to consider about whether Jesus was alluding to the divine name in John 8:58. For him to do so would be inconsistent with all he said in chapter 8. In John 8:16, John 8:26,John 8:28,John 8:29,John 8:38,John 8:40,John 8:42,John 8:50,John 8:54,John 8:55 Jesus repeatedly acknowledges the supremacy of the Father over himself and his own dependence upon the Father, and that the Father sent him, and that he does nothing of himself. This is consistent of a Man who understood that his purpose was known by Abraham, prophesied and excepted by the faithful who knew a savoir would come in the line of Abraham and David.

However,

If Jesus was God could he say this:

John 8:28: "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

If Jesus is "Very God of Very God," and coequal with the Father, then why must Jesus be taught by the Father?
If Jesus is God, then why can he not do nothing on his own authority?

Must God wait on another person before He can do something?

Again, a son who understood 1 Timothy 3:16 would be able to say these things with confidence!

John 8:40: "You are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God."

If Jesus is "Very God of Very God," then does God hear God, seeing that Jesus said that he was "a MAN...that [has] heard from God"?

John 8:42: "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me" (John 8:42).

One can't "come from God" and "be sent by God" and at the same time be "Very God."

John 8:54: "Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me."

If Jesus is coequal with God, then why is Jesus' honor described by himself as being "nothing," and why is the only honor worthy of mention is the honor that is bestowed by his Father?

These "honors" don't sound very "equal" if "God the Son" is coequal with "God the Father," as the Trinitarian Athanasian Creed claims.

Your doctrine doesn't add up and the twisting of John 8 shows Christ's meaning to his statement "I am" revealed the great Logos of Christ - the spiritual creation in one New Man from which all things eternal for this creation now exist.

F2F

In summation, this package of posts, all in response to the above quoted post of yours, expose your denial of Jesus Christ through your heart's treasure of adulterating "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58).

1. You exalt yourself by your imposition upon King Jesus of "He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham" resulting in your heart adulterating the Word of God into "Falsely, falsely, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" as shown in this linked post, yet, in Truth (John 14:6), King Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) resulting in Jesus existing always prior to Abraham, no exceptions.
2. In your spirit of confusion delusion, you flip the Word of God into "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I will be" by your convoluted thoughts that Jesus was talking about the future not the past as shown in this linked post, yet, in Truth (John 14:6), King Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) resulting in Jesus existing always prior to Abraham, no exceptions.
3. You capriciously use John 8:42 to eliminate the Deity of Jesus in your heart after adulterating John 8:58 into the corrupt word of face2face as shown in this linked post, yet Jesus Christ reveals Himself as truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ reveals Himself as truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God; therefore, John 8:42 records Jesus as truly Man, and John 8:58 records Jesus as truly God.
4. You reject Jesus because you think the proximity of the word firstborn to Jesus in Romans 8:29 means that He was created as shown in this linked post, yet Jesus and His own people reveal Him as truly Man and truly God, so Jesus, truly Man, is the firstborn of the Resurrection (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14), yet Jesus truly Man existed before He was the firstborn of the Resurrection; therefore, none of these verses indicate that Jesus was created.
5. You deny the Word is YHWH God as shown in this linked post, yet the Apostle John wrote the Word is YHWH God (John 1:1-5).
6. "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) is the accurate translation from the source Greek as shown in this linked post, yet your delusional thoughts lead you away from the Truth (John 14:6) because you say the translation is flawed.
7. You call this Word of God complex "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) as shown in this linked post, yet He's simply straightforward about Him existing in all time prior to Abraham (John 8:58). This post also includes consistent Apostolic testimony quotations about Jesus being the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8) (see see the Truth [John 14:6] that God had me compose in post #283 to expose the deception of tigger 2 and Rich R).

 

[Kermos]

The words of Jesus-- John 17:3--This means eternal life, their knowing you(Father) THE ONLY TRUE GOD and the one whom you sent forth Christ Jesus.
Believe Jesus, you must make the choice.

It appears to me that you are emphasizing that Jesus is a man while at the same time you are denying the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God (John 8:58).

@Keiw you and all your JW (Jelly Worshippers, you form an idol with a name patterned after Jesus but your idol really is just jelly formed in your own image and likeness that molds and decays into garbage - and you thought JW means Jehovah's Witness - you are certainly not JW as in Jesus Worshippers because your Jesus idol departs from the Word of God which you adulterate such that the word of JW Jelly Worshippers bears not the resemblance of the Word of God) adulterate the Word of God.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• You wickedly and publicly point out Jesus to be a liar according to your writings.
• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this ChristianityBoard thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this ChristianityBoard thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this ChristianityBoard thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this ChristianityBoard thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your measure (Matthew 7:2), you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You hypocritically accuse others of using Bibles that do not accurately represent God's Holy Name, yet the Watchtower Society's New World Translation mistranslates God's Holy Name as Jehovah again and again and again as shown in post #1657 in this ChristianityBoard thread, and in Truth (John 14:6) God's Holy Name is YHWH, so your bible is corrupt according to your very own measure (Matthew 7:2) (link to post 1686 in this ChristianityBoard thread containing detailed explanation of the development of the word Jehovah of which the developers intentionally separated the word Jehovah from God's Holy Name).
• You evilly adulterate the Word of God in your heart to be "I and the Father are exclusively one purpose and nothing else" as shown in post #1723 in this ChristianityBoard thread, yet Lord Jesus truly declared "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) thus Immanuel includes the person of the Father as well as the person of Jesus in being the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel as shown in post #569 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an evil source headed for damnation in your current state.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Correct Jesus, God, and the personal pronoun ἡμῶν that refers to us in 1 Peter 1:1 is in the genitive case. BUT IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS BEING GOD'S AND JESUS'. The Genitive case in grammar, expresses primarily the thing from which something else proceeds, possessive in a sense. And the conjunctive καὶ makes a distinction between God and Jesus not as you are putting forth. If Jesus was being called God here the case of Jesus and God would not be in the genitive and the conjunctive καὶ would not be necessary. The clause should read as follows:

δικαιοσύνῃ Righteousness
τοῦ of the
θεοῦ God
ἡμῶν Of us
καὶ And
σωτῆρος OF Saviour
Ἰησοῦ Jesus
Χριστοῦ Christ :

The word "Θεοῦ" is genitive in 2 Peter 1:1, so now you preach that God is a, to quote you, that God is a "thing from which something else proceeds"; therefore, it is now recorded that you claim that God is created, so the word of @HIM is against the Word of God. You are a linguistic fool.

The word "and" is a conjoining conjunction that adheres all of the-τοῦ God-Θεοῦ Savior-Σωτῆρος Jesus-Ἰησοῦ, and Christ-Χριστοῦ as one with all these five words being genitive/masculine/singular. The Greek grammar is absolute, so Peter clearly declares that Jesus is YHWH God.

You confuse the Greek inflection grammar with that which the word "faith" represents (see Hebrews 11:1).

We need the verse here for clarity, "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

Grammatically (and hence Spiritually) in Greek, in 2 Peter 1:1, a plural inflection of the word "faith" would have the word "faith" be grammatically associated with "those", so, as previously stated, the word "faith" would have to be a plural to be associated with the plural "those" in 2 Peter 1:1 (the consequences of which would be unpleasant as shown in the next paragraph').

Now, there is one faith (Ephesians 4:5), and Peter says there is one faith in 2 Peter 1:1 - in fact the one faith is the work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10) so here we find Peter conveying that the one faith is the work of God because Peter grammatically ties the word "faith" to the words "God" and "Jesus".

Since the word "faith" is singular in 2 Peter 1:1, then the singular inflection of the word "faith" results in the word "faith" being associated with singular inflection objects of "Jesus", "Christ", "God", and "Savior". The same grammatical rules apply to "righteousness". The following explanation applies.

2 Peter 1:1 truthfully exegeted with Greek grammar rules applied maintains consistent Apostolic testimony.

Here is the English-Greek full word-for-word of 2 Peter 1:1:

Simon-Συμεὼν Peter-Πέτρος slave-δοῦλος and-καὶ apostle-ἀπόστολος Jesus-Ἰησοῦ Christ-Χριστοῦ the-Τοῖς precious-ἰσότιμον ours-ἡμῖν obtain-λαχοῦσιν belief-πίστιν in-ἐν righteousness-δικαιοσύνῃ the-τοῦ God-Θεοῦ us-ἡμῶν and-καὶ Savior-Σωτῆρος Jesus-Ἰησοῦ Christ-Χριστοῦ (2 Peter 1:1)

All of these words "God", "Savior", "Jesus", and "Christ" are genitive, singular, and masculine in this passage thus these words after the salutation are to be taken together as a single cohesive unit according to Greek grammar rules, and this unit, Jesus Christ the God and Savior of us, is the object impacting the objects of "faith" (belief) and "righteousness" being applied to the subject of the clause ("To those" is the grammatical subject which is the letter recipients).

The logical "and" in the phrase "the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1) is linguistically, logically, and Spiritually tied to Jesus Christ because the words "faith", singular, as well as the word "righteousness", singular, in the phrase "having obtained a faith equally precious with ours in righteousness of" (2 Peter 1:1); therefore, Peter singularly refers to "the God of us" and "Savior" and "Jesus Christ" as One singular.

See that linguistically, "faith" and "righteosness" would need to be plural in order to agree with the subject of "To those", which is plural, in order for "faith" and "righteosness" to be disassociated from Jesus Christ the God and Savior of us which could then lead to legitimate discussion about "the God of us" and "Savior" and "Jesus Christ" to be considered linguistacally in this one single passage for disassociation in the evil manner which you think applies.

THE APOSTLE PETER INDISPUTABLY CALLS JESUS "THE GOD OF US" (τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν) WITH "SIMON PETER, A SLAVE AND APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST, TO THOSE HAVING OBTAINED A FAITH EQUALLY PRECIOUS WITH OURS IN RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE GOD OF US AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST" (2 PETER 1:1).

The Greek grammar rules make 2 Peter 1:1 utterly clear in order to avoid confusion, yet you have managed to confuse yourself into constructing an idol that you call Jesus (Isaiah 45:16) which is not the true Jesus (Isaiah 9:6, John 8:58) unto eternal punishment (John 3:36) according to your current state (1 Corinthians 2:14, John 8:24).

 

[Jack]

It's awesome how you ignore v5, which embraces adoptionism. God adopted Jesus as his son and us too. This is why the verse says "today" you have become my son. This was written after the resurrection, AFTER Jesus submitted to the will of his God, obedient onto death. Death is an act impossible for an eternal God.

This is how we KNOW Jesus is not God, he died.

Jesus lives! Now you know! And He will judge all of us because He knows EVERYTHING! Only God knows everything. Peter was right. Jesus knows EVERYTHING!

 

[Keiw]

Hebrews 1
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."
10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Oh yeah, the Son is God!

LORD all capitols=YHWH(Jehovah)--Worship is error. Obesiance to Gods appointed king is correct.

 

[Jack]

LORD all capitols=YHWH(Jehovah)--Worship is error. Obesiance to Gods appointed king is correct.

Total evasion! You're not qualified to rewrite our Bible!

 

[Keiw]

It appears to me that you are emphasizing that Jesus is a man while at the same time you are denying the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God (John 8:58).

@Keiw you and all your JW (Jelly Worshippers, you form an idol with a name patterned after Jesus but your idol really is just jelly formed in your own image and likeness that molds and decays into garbage - and you thought JW means Jehovah's Witness - you are certainly not JW as in Jesus Worshippers because your Jesus idol departs from the Word of God which you adulterate such that the word of JW Jelly Worshippers bears not the resemblance of the Word of God) adulterate the Word of God.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• You wickedly and publicly point out Jesus to be a liar according to your writings.
• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this ChristianityBoard thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this ChristianityBoard thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this ChristianityBoard thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• People like you are willingly ignorant of the creation (2 Peter 3:5) as shown in post #1445 in this ChristianityBoard thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure deliberately deceives.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your measure (Matthew 7:2), you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You hypocritically accuse others of using Bibles that do not accurately represent God's Holy Name, yet the Watchtower Society's New World Translation mistranslates God's Holy Name as Jehovah again and again and again as shown in post #1657 in this ChristianityBoard thread, and in Truth (John 14:6) God's Holy Name is YHWH, so your bible is corrupt according to your very own measure (Matthew 7:2) (link to post 1686 in this ChristianityBoard thread containing detailed explanation of the development of the word Jehovah of which the developers intentionally separated the word Jehovah from God's Holy Name).
• You evilly adulterate the Word of God in your heart to be "I and the Father are exclusively one purpose and nothing else" as shown in post #1723 in this ChristianityBoard thread, yet Lord Jesus truly declared "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) thus Immanuel includes the person of the Father as well as the person of Jesus in being the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel as shown in post #569 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an evil source headed for damnation in your current state.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

You are confused.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus lives! Now you know! And He will judge all of us because He knows EVERYTHING! Only God knows everything. Peter was right. Jesus knows EVERYTHING!

LOL If Jesus knows everything, how come he said God knows more than he does?

 

[Jack]

LOL If Jesus knows everything, how come he said God knows more than he does?

Are you calling Peter a liar?

John 21
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

 

[HIM]

..................................................

Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1. These verses are said in some circles to represent the "Granville Sharp Rule" that two nouns connected by kai (Greek, "and") and only the first noun has the definite article, it denotes unity or equality. Thus, in these verses, "the God and Savior Jesus Christ," applies to Christ the titles of both God and Savior. Was this the understanding of the Sahidic Coptic translators?

No. At Titus 2:13 the Sahidic Coptic text reads noute. mn penswthr ihsous pecristos, "God, and our Savior Jesus Christ." Thus, two Persons are in view, not one and the same. The Coptic translators did not know of a "Granville Sharp Rule."

And as for 2 Peter 1:1, the Coptic translators apparently had before them another Greek text, which read "Lord" instead of "God": "Our Lord Jesus Christ, our Savior." (For example, "Lord" instead of "God" is found in the great Greek Codex Sinaiticus of the 4th century, and also the Harclean Syriac version.)

Some scriptures can be rendered in more than one way. The use of Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 is an example. 2 Peter 1:1 has the same problems as found in Titus 2:13 and may honestly be rendered "Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ." (Weymouth NT)

Sometimes, though, translators are unable to find a way to render a passage in the way they really want to. 2 Peter 1:2 is just one of them for most trinitarian translators.

2 Peter 1:2 (parallel usage to that found in 2 Peter 1:1):

“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,” - KJV. The same meaning is found in ASV, AMP, BRG, CSB, Darby, DRA, EHV, GNV, GNT, HCSB, ISV, JUB, KJ21, LEB, MEV, Mounce, NAB, NASB, NCB, NET, NIV, NKJV, NMB, NRSV, NTE, REB, RGT, RSV, TLV, VOICE, WEB, YLT.

'Sharp's Rule' Primer

2 Peter 1:1 also has a context issue in respect to Sharps Rule. As was previously stated but placed here for our convenience.

...... Did you notice the use of the definite article τοῦ in reference to the God and Jesus being the Lord. And how they are separated by the Greek conjunctive particle καὶ. Clearly by this we see that Peter did not call Jesus God but Lord in verse 2 of chapter 1. Notice also how God again is in the genitive but this time it is the knowledge that is of Him rather than our righteousness which is of faith.

(2Pet 1:2 [TRi])
χάρις Grace
ὑμῖν To You
καὶ And
εἰρήνη Peace
πληθυνθείη Be Multiplied
ἐν In 'The'
ἐπιγνώσει Knowledge
τοῦ θεοῦ Of the God,
καὶ And
Ἰησοῦ Of Jesus
τοῦ the
κυρίου Lord
ἡμῶν Our Lord.

 

[HIM]

Kermos said, The word "Θεοῦ" is genitive in 2 Peter 1:1, so now you preach that God is a, to quote you, that God is a "thing from which something else proceeds"; therefore, it is now recorded that you claim that God is created, so the word of @HIM is against the Word of God. You are a linguistic fool.

Even Michael the archangel dare not bring railing accusations when disputing over the body of Moses. But said, "the Lord rebuke thee". And no that was merely a definition of the word genitive.

Kermos said,The word "and" is a conjoining conjunction that adheres all of the-τοῦ God-Θεοῦ Savior-Σωτῆρος Jesus-Ἰησοῦ, and Christ-Χριστοῦ as one with all these five words being genitive/masculine/singular. The Greek grammar is absolute, so Peter clearly declares that Jesus is YHWH God.

No. The subject is the obtained faith in righteousness of the God of us. The copulative "and" is used to state that this is also Christ's righteousness. Christ is not being called God here. Christ being in the genitive is being said in connection to the righteousness being of Him also. Hence the copulative "and" being used.
(2Pet 1:1 [TRi])
Συμεὼν Simon
Πέτρος Peter,
δοῦλος Bondman
καὶ And
ἀπόστολος Apostle
Ἰησοῦ Of Jesus
Χριστοῦ Christ,
τοῖς To Those Who
ἰσότιμον Like Precious
ἡμῖν With Us
λαχοῦσιν Obtained
πίστιν Faith
ἐν in 'The'
δικαιοσύνῃ Righteousness
τοῦ θεοῦ the God
ἡμῶν Of us
καὶ And
σωτῆρος Saviour Ἰησοῦ Jesus Χριστοῦ Christ :

Kermos said,You confuse the Greek inflection grammar with that which the word "faith" represents (see Hebrews 11:1).

That has nothing to do with anything we are speaking on

Kermos said, We need the verse here for clarity, "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours by the righteousness of the God of us and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

Grammatically (and hence Spiritually) in Greek, in 2 Peter 1:1, a plural inflection of the word "faith" would have the word "faith" be grammatically associated with "those", so, as previously stated, the word "faith" would have to be a plural to be associated with the plural "those" in 2 Peter 1:1 (the consequences of which would be unpleasant as shown in the next paragraph').

Now, there is one faith (Ephesians 4:5), and Peter says there is one faith in 2 Peter 1:1 - in fact the one faith is the work of God (John 6:29, Ephesians 2:8-10) so here we find Peter conveying that the one faith is the work of God because Peter grammatically ties the word "faith" to the words "God" and "Jesus".

Since the word "faith" is singular in 2 Peter 1:1, then the singular inflection of the word "faith" results in the word "faith" being associated with singular inflection objects of "Jesus", "Christ", "God", and "Savior". The same grammatical rules apply to "righteousness". The following explanation applies.

Show an example of the Greek word πίστις in the plural. As was said above the subject is our like Presious faith that is in the righteousness of the God of us and of savior Jesus Christ. Couple that with the outright distinction between God and Christ in verse 2 as shown below and that what you want to believe of verse 1 falls apart.

Did you notice the use of the definite article τοῦ in reference to the God and Jesus being the Lord. And how they are separated by the Greek conjunctive particle καὶ. Clearly by this we see that Peter did not call Jesus God but Lord in verse 2 of chapter 1. Notice also how God again is in the genitive but this time it is the knowledge that is of Him rather than our righteousness which is of faith.

(2Pet 1:2 [TRi])
χάρις Grace
ὑμῖν To You
καὶ And
εἰρήνη Peace
πληθυνθείη Be Multiplied
ἐν In 'The'
ἐπιγνώσει Knowledge
τοῦ θεοῦ Of the God,
καὶ And
Ἰησοῦ Of Jesus
τοῦ the
κυρίου Lord
ἡμῶν Our Lord.

 

[Wrangler]

Are you calling Peter a liar?

John 21
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

No, I am not calling Jesus a liar.

 

[Kermos]

Did you notice the use of the definite article τοῦ in reference to the God and Jesus being the Lord. And how they are separated by the Greek conjunctive particle καὶ. Clearly by this we see that Peter did not call Jesus God but Lord in verse 2 of chapter 1. Notice also how God again is in the genitive but this time it is the knowledge that is of Him rather than our righteousness which is of faith.

(2Pet 1:2 [TRi])
χάρις Grace
ὑμῖν To You
καὶ And
εἰρήνη Peace
πληθυνθείη Be Multiplied
ἐν In 'The'
ἐπιγνώσει Knowledge
τοῦ θεοῦ Of the God,
καὶ And
Ἰησοῦ Of Jesus
τοῦ the
κυρίου Lord
ἡμῶν Our Lord.

Again, just like verse 2 Peter 1:1, we find the Apostle has τοῦ-the, Θεοῦ-God, and Ἰησοῦ-Jesus all genitive/masculine/singular wiith two more words with grammatically matching case/gender/person which are τοῦ-the and Κυρίου-Lord in 2 Peter 1:2, and all of these words are bound together by the conjoining conjunction καὶ-and.

All the words with grammatically matching case/gender/person are a single cohesive unit for the knowledge of which Peter refers.

Adonai YHWH is the same as Lord YHWH, and we find God's Holy Name prefixed by Adonai in Scripture.

Behold, YHWH is both the Lord and the God.

Just as in 2 Peter 1:1, the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:2 ties into a single Being all of τοῦ-the, Θεοῦ-God, Ἰησοῦ-Jesus, τοῦ-the, and Κυρίου-Lord with the Apostle's use of the conjoining conjunction καὶ-and.

Behold, Jesus is both the Lord and the God.

Jesus is YHWH according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 1:1-2).

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.

When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

You are confused.

@Keiw, more about you below the following about your cohort.

@Aunty Jane, based on your approval of Keiw's writing, you will find the following explanation about your spirit of delusion. You and all your JW adulterate the Word of God. Here's practical examples from a single post by Aunty Jane.

The Truth (John 14:6) has been proclaimed to you, and in a single post, you expose a multitude of Watchtower Society people's deception:

• From Apostolic testimony, the Word of God reveals Jesus as truly God and truly Man at His discretion, and the children of God do so according to the Holy Spirit, yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• From Apostolic testimony, the Greek grammar very specifically results in the Apostle Paul calling Jesus "the great God" in Titus 2:13, yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• Your heart corrupts Apostolic testimony because you added words into Paul's words, so you deny tte Truth (John 14:6) that Paul wrote as shown in this linked post.
• From Apostolic testimony, the Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" in John 20:28, yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• From Apostolic testimony, there is One True God, and no other true gods exist (The figure of speech called an oxymoron respecting "you are gods" (Psalm 82:6, John 10:34) and "many gods" (1 Corinthians 8:5)), yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• From Apostolic testimony, the Names of God are precious to Christians, and this includes the Name of God "Immanuel" for in this Name is our blessed Salvation (Matthew 1:23) - "Salvation belongs to YHWH" (Psalm 3:8), yet you vainly use the Names of God, so you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• The Word, Jesus, is everlasting God (John 1:1, Psalm 119:89), yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) by thinking the Word is "a god" as shown in this linked post.
• God's memorial-name to all generations is the ever-present "I AM" according to accurately translated Scripture from the Tanakh (Exodus 3:14), yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• Jesus declares in no uncertain terms that He is uncreated with "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• YHWH is God's Holy Name, yet you think Jehovah, a name intentionally removed from God's Holy Name, is God's name as shown in this linked post.
• Jesus being "the Beginning of the creation of God" (Revelation 3:14) refers to Jesus being the starting point Creator God of all the Assembly of God, that is, the creation of God - not that Jesus was created for He did not say "I am the first created being of the creation of God" (your conjuring), yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• Your heart's "Jesus is not I AM" treasure is false because the Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24) thus Jesus proclaims that He is "I AM" - THAT HE IS YHWH GOD (EXODUS 3:14), yet you deny this Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.
• The One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) is Spirit (John 4:24), and the One True God exists as the person of the Father (John 17:11, Romans 1:7) and the person of Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14, John 8:58) and the person of the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17, Acts 5:3-4), yet you deny this Holy Truth (John 14:6) as shown in this linked post.

@Keiw, you have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• You wickedly and publicly point out Jesus to be a liar according to your writings.
• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this ChristianityBoard thread
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this ChristianityBoard thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• You hypocritically accuse others of using Bibles that do not accurately represent God's Holy Name, yet the Watchtower Society's New World Translation mistranslates God's Holy Name as Jehovah again and again and again as shown in post #1657 in this ChristianityBoard thread, and in Truth (John 14:6) God's Holy Name is YHWH, so your bible is corrupt according to your very own measure (Matthew 7:2) (link to post 1686 in this ChristianityBoard thread containing detailed explanation of the development of the word Jehovah of which the developers intentionally separated the word Jehovah from God's Holy Name).
• You evilly adulterate the Word of God in your heart to be "I and the Father are exclusively one purpose and nothing else" as shown in post #1723 in this ChristianityBoard thread, yet Lord Jesus truly declared "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) thus Immanuel includes the person of the Father as well as the person of Jesus in being the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this ChristianityBoard thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are an evil source headed for damnation in your current state.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

No scripture says that Jesus was NOT created either Kermos.

In fact scripture speaks of his creation from his heavenly Father's Spirit as the angel proclaimed to Mary. And to me conception/begotten and birth means creation and not some bizarre incredible process of another god-person injecting himself as a male sperm into a woman's egg to form a ridiculous god-man human divine person-being.

Well, APAK, your first paragraph is patently and sinfully wrong because Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to Jesus, He existed in eternity past which means that Jesus Himself says He is uncreated. Jesus truly God exists always.

Your second paragraph confusedly mentions Jesus truly Man without acknowledging Jesus truly God.

Jesus proclaims that the Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

 

[RLT63]

Well, APAK, your first paragraph is patently and sinfully wrong because Lord Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to Jesus, He existed in eternity past which means that Jesus Himself says He is uncreated. Jesus truly God exists always.

Your second paragraph confusedly mentions Jesus truly Man without acknowledging Jesus truly God.

Jesus proclaims that the Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!

The NET notes on John 8:58-59
sn I am! is an explicit claim to deity. Although each occurrence of the phrase “I am” in the Fourth Gospel needs to be examined individually in context to see if an association with Exod 3:14 is present, it seems clear that this is the case here (as the response of the Jewish authorities in the following verse shows).
tn Grk “they took up.”
sn Jesus’ Jewish listeners understood his claim to deity, rejected it, and picked up stones to throw at him for what they considered blasphemy.

 

[face2face]

The NET notes on John 8:58-59
sn I am! is an explicit claim to deity. Although each occurrence of the phrase “I am” in the Fourth Gospel needs to be examined individually in context to see if an association with Exod 3:14 is present, it seems clear that this is the case here (as the response of the Jewish authorities in the following verse shows).
tn Grk “they took up.”
sn Jesus’ Jewish listeners understood his claim to deity, rejected it, and picked up stones to throw at him for what they considered blasphemy.

As seen in earlier posts, all trinitarians fail to acknowledge the context and example of John 8:56 (no generalization here!). In fact, all I've seen so far on this question is silence! Not one trinitarian has handled the text or expounded a coherent understanding in light of John 8:58.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad"

By faith you say?

How then John 8:58?

Correct, Jesus existed in thought and was pre eminent not pre existant!

Which can be proven from the text? Faith see's Christ day - evidence of things not seen!

I guess if you forced a literal reading of John 8:56 and said Abraham was taken forward in time to see the life of Christ in the flesh you wouldn't be blamed for suggesting a literal reading of verse 58. But wrong on both counts!!!

F2F

 

[face2face]

The NET notes on John 8:58-59
sn I am! is an explicit claim to deity. Although each occurrence of the phrase “I am” in the Fourth Gospel needs to be examined individually in context to see if an association with Exod 3:14 is present, it seems clear that this is the case here (as the response of the Jewish authorities in the following verse shows).
tn Grk “they took up.”
sn Jesus’ Jewish listeners understood his claim to deity, rejected it, and picked up stones to throw at him for what they considered blasphemy.

The Father is supreme over the Son and the Son can do nothing of himself. Do you think you force a lot on the "I am" that wasn't in Jesus' mind at all! Pharisees misinterpreted him and it looks like you are doing the same! Take a deep breathe and weight all the Scriptures - balance will show God is One and the Lord Jesus Christ is His Spiritual creation as per John 1:1. You wont believe - but having the opportunity is sufficient for now.

 

[HIM]

Again, just like verse 2 Peter 1:1, we find the Apostle has τοῦ-the, Θεοῦ-God, and Ἰησοῦ-Jesus all genitive/masculine/singular wiith two more words with grammatically matching case/gender/person which are τοῦ-the and Κυρίου-Lord in 2 Peter 1:2, and all of these words are bound together by the conjoining conjunction καὶ-and.

All the words with grammatically matching case/gender/person are a single cohesive unit for the knowledge of which Peter refers.

Adonai YHWH is the same as Lord YHWH, and we find God's Holy Name prefixed by Adonai in Scripture.

Behold, YHWH is both the Lord and the God.

Just as in 2 Peter 1:1, the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:2 ties into a single Being all of τοῦ-the, Θεοῦ-God, Ἰησοῦ-Jesus, τοῦ-the, and Κυρίου-Lord with the Apostle's use of the conjoining conjunction καὶ-and.

Behold, Jesus is both the Lord and the God.

Jesus is YHWH according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 1:1-2).

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.

When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

No you are ignoring the genitive to fit the narrative of the Latin Vulgate. The context is the righteousness OF the God and oOF the Savior Jesus Christ. No definite article

(2Pet 1:1 [TRi])
' δικαιοσύνῃ Righteousness
τοῦ the
θεοῦ God
ἡμῶν Of Us
καὶ And
σωτῆρος OF Saviour
Ἰησοῦ Jesus
Χριστοῦ Christ :

(2Pet 1:2 [TRi])
χάρις Grace ὑμῖν To You καὶ And εἰρήνη Peace πληθυνθείη Be Multiplied ἐν In 'The' ἐπιγνώσει Knowledge τοῦ θεοῦ Of God, καὶ And Ἰησοῦ Of Jesus τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Our Lord.

Again, just like verse 2 Peter 1:1, we find the Apostle has τοῦ-the, Θεοῦ-God, and Ἰησοῦ-Jesus all genitive/masculine/singular wiith two more words with grammatically matching case/gender/person which are τοῦ-the and Κυρίου-Lord in 2 Peter 1:2, and all of these words are bound together by the conjoining conjunction καὶ-and.

All the words with grammatically matching case/gender/person are a single cohesive unit for the knowledge of which Peter refers.

Adonai YHWH is the same as Lord YHWH, and we find God's Holy Name prefixed by Adonai in Scripture.

Behold, YHWH is both the Lord and the God.

Just as in 2 Peter 1:1, the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:2 ties into a single Being all of τοῦ-the, Θεοῦ-God, Ἰησοῦ-Jesus, τοῦ-the, and Κυρίου-Lord with the Apostle's use of the conjoining conjunction καὶ-and.

Behold, Jesus is both the Lord and the God.

Jesus is YHWH according to the Apostle Peter (2 Peter 1:1-2).

Jesus reveals Himself as truly God and truly Man at His discretion.

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

When Jesus says "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38), then according to the Jesus, truly Man, Jesus does the will of the Father who sent the Son.

When Jesus says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), then according to the Jesus, truly God, Jesus exists in eternity past which means Jesus is uncreated thus Jesus proclaims that Jesus is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

People who do not believe that Jesus is God are people who are not blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God, so such people cannot see the Kingdom of God nor even King Jesus (John 3:3-8) for Who He is. You do not believe that Jesus is God.

Jesus is "I AM" before Jesus was begotten.

Jesus, truly God, always exists "before Abraham" as "I AM" (John 8:58) prior to Mary being told the beget event of Jesus, truly Man, prophecy by Gabriel "you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son" (Luke 1:34).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

No you are ignoring the genitive to fit the narrative of the Latin Vulgate. The context is the righteousness OF the God and OF Savior Jesus Christ. No definite article here because it is not needed. But one is supplied in verse 2. Where again the genitive is used in respect to possession but this time is that of knowledge that is and from God.

(2Pet 1:1 [TRi])
' δικαιοσύνῃ Righteousness
τοῦ the
θεοῦ God
ἡμῶν Of Us
καὶ And
σωτῆρος OF Saviour
Ἰησοῦ Jesus
Χριστοῦ Christ :

(2Pet 1:2 [TRi])
χάρις Grace
ὑμῖν To You
καὶ And
εἰρήνη Peace
πληθυνθείη Be Multiplied
ἐν In
ἐπιγνώσει Knowledge
τοῦ OF the
θεοῦ God,
καὶ And
Ἰησοῦ Of Jesus
τοῦ the
κυρίου Lord.
ἡμῶν Our

 

[RLT63]

As seen in earlier posts, all trinitarians fail to acknowledge the context and example of John 8:56 (no generalization here!). In fact, all I've seen so far on this question is silence! Not one trinitarian has handled the text or expounded a coherent understanding in light of John 8:58.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad"

By faith you say?

How then John 8:58?

Correct, Jesus existed in thought and was pre eminent not pre existant!

Which can be proven from the text? Faith see's Christ day - evidence of things not seen!

I guess if you forced a literal reading of John 8:56 and said Abraham was taken forward in time to see the life of Christ in the flesh you wouldn't be blamed for suggesting a literal reading of verse 58. But wrong on both counts!!!

F2F

John 8:56 refers to Genesis 22:13-15 the Akedah. Abraham saw the parallel between what he was asked to do and what God would do when he sacrificed his Son.