1Peter 3:18

[Davy]

You cannot logically make that deduction from the Scriptures. Thomas saw and touched his flesh body after his resurrection (but that was just a similar looking body, not the same one)! The Scripture says:

I sure can... use common sense about Apostle Paul saying Jesus was made "a quickening spirit" per 1 Corinthians 15:45.

What do I care that common sense from 'staying' in The Scriptures as written trumps over men's doctrines created to deceive? Now you can follow those men if you want, but I choose to stay with what is written... in God's Word:

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

 

[Davy]

I do believe Paul! What I wrote was in total agreement with what Paul wrote. The last (perfect man) Adam, i.e. Jesus, was made a life-giving spirit being at his resurrection. He is no longer a man. First he was a man, then he was made an immortal spirit being.

No, actually you do not... believe Apostle Paul.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption (flesh body) inherit incorruption (spiritual body).

Men's doctrine says the resurrection is to a new flesh body like we have today, but different in that it won't get sick, old, and die. Apostle Paul did NOT teach any such idea as that.

Paul taught the resurrection is to a "spiritual body", which does not mean flesh at all.

So how is it you claim Lord Jesus was in His resurrection body when He appeared to His Apostles in Luke 24:39, when Paul taught the resurrection body type is a "SPIRITUAL BODY"?

 

[keithr]

I sure can... use common sense about Apostle Paul saying Jesus was made "a quickening spirit" per 1 Corinthians 15:45.

What do I care that common sense from 'staying' in The Scriptures as written trumps over men's doctrines created to deceive? Now you can follow those men if you want, but I choose to stay with what is written... in God's Word:

Well when I use logic and common sense I end up with a different conclusion. I guess your common sense is different to mine! :

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

Note that verse 46 says that first we have a natural body, but then afterwards (after our resurrection) we will have a spiritual body. But nowhere does Paul say that our physical body is transformed into a spiritual body. That's not possible - a spiritual body is not made of physical matter. We need to harmonise all Scripture, so that means we need to consider Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:1-7 too, where he implies that we can exist in a human body, having no body, and in a spiritual body.

 

[keithr]

No, actually you do not... believe Apostle Paul.

Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:50 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption (flesh body) inherit incorruption (spiritual body).

Precisely, so Jesus cannot have been resurrected with a human body again because he could not then inherit the kingdom of God (nor even go to heaven and sit at God's right hand).

Men's doctrine says the resurrection is to a new flesh body like we have today, but different in that it won't get sick, old, and die. Apostle Paul did NOT teach any such idea as that.

Paul taught the resurrection is to a "spiritual body", which does not mean flesh at all.

Only Christians have the opportunity of being resurrected as spirit beings, non-Christians will be resurrected as humans again. Paul's teaching to Christians should not be applied to the whole of mankind - we need to rightly divide the word of God (2 Timothy 2:15).

So how is it you claim Lord Jesus was in His resurrection body when He appeared to His Apostles in Luke 24:39, when Paul taught the resurrection body type is a "SPIRITUAL BODY"?

I and others have already explained that as a spirit being Jesus is able to materialise a human body in oder to interact with people, just like angels have done on many occasions. The disciples did not see Jesus as he now is ("Beloved, now we are children of God, and it is not yet revealed what we will be. But we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him; for we will see him just as he is" - 1 John 3:2). Paul claimed to have seen Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:8, 9:1), referring to his conversion on the road to Damascus, when he saw a bright light shining from the sky, brighter than the sun, and also during visions (Acts 22:17-18).

 

[Davy]

Well when I use logic and common sense I end up with a different conclusion. I guess your common sense is different to mine! :

Well, you said it, I didn't.

Before The Holy Spirit will reveal His Truth to us, we first have to study and believe what He said in The Scriptures first. I find many things written in God's Word hard for my 'flesh' to believe. But my 'spirit' sees differently. Over many years many of those hard things I had to put on shelf, until The Holy Spirit showed them to me, opening up my understanding by The Spirit.

Note that verse 46 says that first we have a natural body, but then afterwards (after our resurrection) we will have a spiritual body. But nowhere does Paul say that our physical body is transformed into a spiritual body.

That's correct. Nowhere did Paul show that our flesh body is translated to the 'spiritual body'. Only in the following verses did Apostle Paul hint about Lord Jesus' flesh body being made "a quickening spirit"...

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

Because of that above Scripture, and the Luke 23:36-43 Scripture, many instead believe the resurrection is to a NEW FLESH BODY. They simply choose to ignore Paul's idea of Lord Jesus being changed to a "a quickening spirit".

And with 1 Corinthians 15:50, Paul made it plain that a flesh body of corruption cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven. That is what Paul was showing us with that, "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" about Lord Jesus. His flesh body was never found. But that event about Lord Jesus involved His resurrection only. Paul made it clear in that same chapter (and in 2 Corinthians 5), that for us, we must cast off our flesh body in order for our "spiritual body" to manifest.

The following Scripture I see as a 'hint' that Lord Jesus' flesh at His death, would be transfigured (or translated) to the body of incorruption, which involved His resurrection only.

Matt 17:1-3
17 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2 And was transfigured before them: and His face did shine as the sun, and His raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him.
KJV

Moses we know died and was buried, because God buried Moses' body per Deuteronomy 34. So what's going on there when Jesus' was "transfigured", and Peter seeing Moses and Elijah also when Jesus was transfigured there?

Elijah was taken up by a whirlwind and did not die, so what happened to Elijah's flesh body? (2 Kings 2). Same with Enoch before him....

Heb 11:5
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
KJV

So how does all that above fit with what Apostle Paul taught about the "spiritual body" in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, and... this transfiguration of Christ seen talking with Moses and Elijah?


That brings us back to the 1 Peter 3 Scripture too...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV

So what part was 'quickened by the Spirit'?? Are you going to try and tell me that Lord Jesus of Nazareth, Immanuel 'God with us', needed His Spirit to be quickened at His resurrection? If God needs quickening of His Spirit then He is not God. But Lord Jesus is GOD The Son, even in the flesh, which is what His name 'Immanuel' in Isaiah 7 means (see Matthew 1:23 also).

It appears that you have much Bible study to do on this matter, as there are many Bible Scriptures you have not gotten to, and not even aware of. I know this for a fact just by your doctrine that you haven't studied this matter thoroughly, but are just regurgitating of lot of men's traditions that you have latched onto instead, ideas that I have heard from others many times before you.

 

[keithr]

That's correct. Nowhere did Paul show that our flesh body is translated to the 'spiritual body'. Only in the following verses did Apostle Paul hint about Lord Jesus' flesh body being made "a quickening spirit"...

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

He says nothing about his "flesh body" being made into a spirit - that's just your assumption. John 1:14 (KJV) says:

(14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

(or more precisely translated, "The Word became flesh"). He was totally human. His spirit body didn't become flesh, God gave him a human body, prepared in Mary's womb. As Paul said, Hebrews 2:14 (KJV):

(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He was no longer a spirit being while he was human, and he is no longer a human being now that he has been made a spirit being. As Paul said, first he had a human (natural) body, but then afterwards he was given a spirit body - they are completely different; you can't have two bodies at the same time (although spirit beings can temporarily produce a human body and use it to interact with humans). Consider the whole passage, not just one verse in isolation - 1 Corinthians 15:36-49 (WEB):

(36) You foolish one, that which you yourself sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.
(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.

And with 1 Corinthians 15:50, Paul made it plain that a flesh body of corruption cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven. That is what Paul was showing us with that, "the last Adam was made a quickening spirit" about Lord Jesus. His flesh body was never found. But that event about Lord Jesus involved His resurrection only. Paul made it clear in that same chapter (and in 2 Corinthians 5), that for us, we must cast off our flesh body in order for our "spiritual body" to manifest.

We don't cast off our human body! We don't have a spirit body living inside our human body. We die, and our dead bodies decompose over time back to dust (maybe quickly if we are cremated and our ashes scattered to the wind or on water!). At a future date God will resurrect us to life and give us new bodies. Christians are resurrected first and given spirit bodies, the rest of mankind are resurrected later and given new human bodies. Jesus, of course, as the head of the Church, was given a spirit body - having the same immortal divine nature as God.

So how does all that above fit with what Apostle Paul taught about the "spiritual body" in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, and... this transfiguration of Christ seen talking with Moses and Elijah?

Again, being given a spiritual body when resurrected only applies to Chistians; it does not apply to Moses and Elijah. (In the vision they were seen as ordinary men.)

That brings us back to the 1 Peter 3 Scripture too...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
<snip>

So what part was 'quickened by the Spirit'?? Are you going to try and tell me that Lord Jesus of Nazareth, Immanuel 'God with us', needed His Spirit to be quickened at His resurrection? If God needs quickening of His Spirit then He is not God. But Lord Jesus is GOD The Son, even in the flesh, which is what His name 'Immanuel' in Isaiah 7 means (see Matthew 1:23 also).

Quickened means being given life, or restoring to life. More modern translations say (e.g. WEB, MKJV), "being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit". It's saying that he was a human (flesh) when he was killed, but he was restored to life as a spirit being.

Jesus is not God, nor "God The Son". God doesn't need his spirit to be given life, for He is immortal and has never died. Jesus has died (Revelation 1:18) and therefore he needed God to give him life again. If you believe in the Trinity error then I'm not surprised that you try and force other Scriptures to harmonise with it, and end up with further misunderstandings.

It appears that you have much Bible study to do on this matter, as there are many Bible Scriptures you have not gotten to, and not even aware of. I know this for a fact just by your doctrine that you haven't studied this matter thoroughly, but are just regurgitating of lot of men's traditions that you have latched onto instead, ideas that I have heard from others many times before you.

That's very presumptuous!