Who Will Burn in Hell "Forever and Ever"?
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
of course; that's the litmus test! Have the wrong idea and straight into the gulag.:cool:
No, that's the obvious. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell. Jesus said so.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I think everyone would do a Bible study about the key words used concerning "hell" (Sheole/Hades, the Gehenna, the Pit/ Abyss, eternity/Aionios, kolasis, destruction/perish, etc.)
You will find that Hades is not Hell. Hades is a place where unbelieving souls await their final judgement, which is to be thrown into the Lake of Fire (hell) and destroyed. The Bible states that Hades and death will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Destroy mean just that, to put an end to. You can't continue to burn a piece of paper in the fire forever, nor can a person survive more than minutes. I like to use that scenebwhen Gollym falls into the lava lake inside the volcano. He was toast in seconds.
Otherwise concept of destruction kn hell has a different meaning in the Bible than in reality. Can there be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing? Sounds contradictory to me. And one must ask about the word "aionios". It has variable meanings. When referring to God or His domain, it means eternal. But when it is used to refer to anything in our temporal realm, it is temporal: ages, lifetime, generations, epoch. The world will pass away along with Hades and allbwhobare in it. The Bible says all former things will pass away. In 2 Peter 3:10, we see that the first heavens and earth will burn in a fervent heat, melt, dissolve, be destroyed. This the Lake of Fire, on earth, and at a particular time - so it is an event, the final Judgment.
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Hmm, not destroyed!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
"to the ages of the ages". Aionios has variable meanings.
>>Nights will come to an end after the first earth is burned up. There will be no more nights, darkness. So that age will be over and a new one will come, a new heaven and new earth. Pain and suffering and death will not exist. Remember, death is thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. Why would God feel glorified by sustaining the torment of billions of souls in a torture chamber for eternity? That is not a merciful God. Justice is weighed according to and in proportion to the crime. It is as if you would think a child stealing a bar of candy should get life in prison with hard labor and that would be fair to you. This eternal judgment is not a fair justice. Putting an end to their suffering is all that is necessary.
"and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." YLT
“and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give water to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life, without cost. The one who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.” Rev. 21:4-8
>>So after the second death, NO MORE DEATH,
NO MORE CRYING OR PAIN, ANYWHERE – THEY WILL PASS AWAY.
"And the city has no need of the sun or of the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God has illuminated it, and its lamp is the Lamb. The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth [s]will bring their glory into it. In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;" Rev. 23-25
>>Here again we see no night which nullifies the tormenting that went on day and night for a time – but it ended.
Tommy Cool
Active Member
Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
But this word destroy is the Greek word katargeō meaning “to render idle, inactivate, inoperative; to cause a person or thing to have no further efficiency…..So apparently.... disposing of spirit beings will take some time…
The noun “ever” from Rev 20:10 is the Greek word aiōn .. which can mean … life-span, age or an epoch… and can also describe any length of clearly defined span of time.
I don’t know if he is eventually annihilated … if so, it’s going to take a while, but rest assured he will be out of commission.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
So what you're saying is that you don't believe in Hell, right? And that's because nobody believes that belief alone determines our eternal destiny. An example: if I believe I'm going to Heaven, then I must, of necessity, go to Heaven. And contrariwise, if I don't believe in Hell, I'm certainly not going to go there!
Hidden beneath this question is an angry outburst against the whole concept of Hell. Who in their right mind would believe in a Good God who tortures people in the flames of Hell hour after hour for all eternity?
Well, that's a good point, if it was true. That would be utterly inconsistent of God to torture people endlessly, as if God enjoys watching people suffer. God is not a masochist! He gave laws to people not to do just that!
So I don't think it's true. I think Hell is metaphorically described as a "fire" to indicate that people are utterly removed from this earth, or from God's Kingdom on earth. Not a trace of their inheritance here is left. Nothing of their presence here remains.
But this "fire" is not flames to torture men, although it may indeed frustrate and torment them. It torments them in the sense it convicts them of their own foolishness, and stands eternally opposed to their own self-centeredness and choice to live independent of God.
Being separated from the blessings of God's Kingdom on earth forever is a frightful prospect indeed, but hardly a "torture chamber." I have no doubt that human beings who live endlessly throughout all time and eternity will find a place in God's purpose. It just won't be in any close proximity to the blessedness that comes from being in God's presence and in His good graces.
So believe what you may, but the Creator gets to decide the rules. He decides our destiny. Our choices make His judgment inevitable.
The real Hell is called, in Scriptures, "Outer Darkness." It is our removal from His blessed Kingdom of Light. If you don't like God you simply can't go into His Kingdom of Light. He doesn't want people who don't want Him!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
if we push the question further; can life exist if one distances oneself from life?.....and God is life
"to the ages of the ages" is VAGUE at best. Nearly every English translation says "forever and ever".
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Oops, sorry--I was having one of those days when I read things backwards! ;)
Taken
Well-Known Member
Person ~
An individual human being consisting of body and soul. We apply the word to living beings only, possessed of a rational nature; the body when dead is not called a personIt is applied alike to a man, woman or child.
People ~
The plural, ie more than one person.
Body’s Have LIFE ... ie Blood.
Soul’s Have LIFE ... ie Breath of God.
Humans Have “natural” spirit LIFE ... ie a humans “natural” truth in his heart.
Human CAN Have “supernatural” spirit Life ... ie a human “who receives Gods SEED” that which births a man “a NEW spirit”... ie Gods Truth “in the mans heart” (effected Once and Forever, via Gods Baptism of Gods Holy Spirit). Called, ie Born Again.
All natural born human’s HAVE....Blood Life AND Soul LIfe.
When the Blood Life of a human’s Body dies .... the Living Soul Life departs the human body.
IF the Soul is Saved, it returns to God and waits in comfort for Judgement.
IF the Soul is Not Saved, it goes to Hell, separated from God and waits in torments for Judgement.
On Judgement Day; ALL Living souls return to their body’s, that the LIFE of their soul, IS the Power to raise up their body, to stand Before the Judge.
The Body HAS...eyes, ears, tongue, mouth, flesh....but it is the Soul which ALLOWS the eyes to see, the ears to hear, the tongue/mouth to speak, the flesh to feel.
The Gift of Salvation “OF” the soul, “IS” an Offering from God, Given to men, WHO BELIEVE “IN” the Lord God.
**** The Offering “TO Receive” the Gift **** HAS A CATCH!!! (Called Gods ORDER and WAY)
**** The Order and Way **** “IS” A bodily Death (FOR his Belief) IS REQUIRED BEFORE the Gift of “soul salvation” Can Be RECEIVED!
**** BY Default **** The individual persons’ CONFESSION of Heartful BELIEF MUST BE MADE BEFORE the individual persons’ BODY physically DIES (ie, during his Blood Life.)
Bodily Death “given”.... FOR his Belief?
That means, the WILLINGNESS of the individual person to LAY DOWN his bodily life “IN DEATH”, expressly FOR giving all that man has (which IS his bodily Life)....TO and For God.
Anciently men have been willing to be bodily Killed; FOR God; rather than follow, trust, believe IN “other gods”, IN “other men”, etc. (ie “Religious wars”, rejecting men/kings/political governors/parents....etc. Against God)
Historically (2,000+ years ago), Jesus was revealed ON Earth, with a NEW/BETTER Testament.
Heb 7:
[22] By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Inanutshell, Jesus Offered SALVATION of any man COULD BE RECEIVED;
IF that man Believed IN “in his heart” God and Christ Jesus...
Ie. A MANS WORKS ^^^
AND IF that man Confessed “his belief in his heart”...
Ie. A MANS SERVICE ^^^
(WHICH IS the “ORDER and WAY”, for a Living individual to LAY DOWN his bodily Life “FOR God”, called Crucified WITH Jesus’ BODY.)
That “BODILY DEATH”, is NOT with observation. It is a “spiritual act”, between that one individual man and the Lord God Himself.
No man Observes a Physical bodily death.
Such a man HAS “fulfilled” Gods Requirement of A BODILY DEATH, and THUS (without observation of human mens eyes)... According to Gods Order, Way and Offering.....that man HAS RECEIVED His souls Salvation.
It matters not WHICH DAY, that mans physical flesh body Will physically die...
Such a mans Departing Living soul, IS Saved, and Shall depart his dead flesh and Return to God In Heaven and wait in comfort for Judgement Day.
WHO Knows what individual men Believe and Do?
Heartfully believe? Heartfully confess?
ONLY the individual man and God KNOW the absolute Truth of what an individual man believes and does.
And ignoring ^^ that is HOW and WHY strife and debate becomes aroused and stirred among men.
A “soul Saved person”, can NEVER become “unSaved Soul”.
An “unSaved soul”, can NEVER become “Saved” AFTER departing out of A Blood Living BODY that “rejected Belief”.
SHALL ALL “souls Confess” Belief? Yes.
SHALL ALL “body’s Confess” Belief? No.
Body’s confess, while alive. (Blood life)
Souls Life, is God Breath. God shall Never reject (stand against) Himself.
Body’s (Life) that reject God......shall be destroyed.
Soul’s that reject God....shall be destroyed.
THE MYSTERY....
Mans life (blood) is natural, returns to dust, that blood is never revived.
Gods life (breath) is supernatural:
(saved soul??)
.....His breath remains in the soul.
(UnSaved soul??)
.....His breath returns to God. The soul is Destroyed. <—- After Judgement.
THE MYSTERY...
God IS merciful.
God IS just.
A man has FREEWILL to believe, to confess belief....or NOT.
* Reject God...??
....that mans BODY (VOID of Blood) shall be destroyed.
....that mans SOUL (VOID of Gods Breath) shall be destroyed.
....that mans SPIRIT (remained natural, never born again to eternal life.)
***
Gods Saving Grace...Mercy...Justice ???
A man WHO REJECTS GOD shall BE VOID OF ALL LIFE and DESTROYED and FORGOTTEN....AFTER Judgement.
TORTURE, only devastatingly AFFECTS that which IS LIVING.
A lifeless body, soul, spirit...does not, can not suffer torture.
SPIRITS ... ie celestial beings.... (and humans whose natural spirit is quickened (born again).......ARE ETERNAL spirit Beings.....meaning NOT MORTAL, NOT SUBJECT TO DEATH, CAN NOT DIE.
SPIRITS...ie celestial beings...that Reject the Lord God...SHALL LIVE FOREVER....IN TORTURE....which is THEIR ETERNAL Separation FROM God and ALL the beauty, peace, rest and comfort OF God.
^^ THEIR “Estate” WAS Heaven.
^^ THEY were Cast down to a Lower “ESTATE”, ie EARTH.
^^ THEY SHALL BE Cast down to a Lower Temporary “ESTATE”, ie of Hell.
^^ THEY SHALL BE again ALLOWED access to the Face of the Earth.
^^ THEY SHALL BE Cast down to a Lower Permanently “ESTATE, ie PIT of Hell.
Gods Order and Way, For human body’s, For souls, For eternal living spirits.
Glory to God,
Taken
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Everlasting fire? Forever and ever? Amen Jesus!
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Everlasting fire? Forever and ever? Amen Jesus!
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
No one burns in hell forever. That's only in the lake of fire.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Considering...torments...FOREVER...reasonably, SCRIPTURALLY, can only be effective WHEN that which IS EXPERIENCING “torments”, Has LIFE “IN” it.
Ecc 9:
[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Torments, are a result of LIVING things, expressly experiencing “Separation” FROM God and His “goodly” provisions.
“ Celestial beings ARE Spirits “.... Their Life IS Spiritual Spirit.
“ Terrestrial Beings ARE Body’s...Their Body’s, Their Life (BLOOD), is a creation FROM DUST. They are given, (imparted), Spiritual LIFE From God...
1) via Gods Breath/in a soul/blown into a Body.
2) via Gods Spirit/entering into a Body, into a mans (new heart, via Gods works of circumcision of the mans heart.)
* Blood Life of a mans BODY...shall DIE.
* Soul Life of a mans BODY...IS Gods Breath, Gods Breath SHALL remain IN a soul forever, or Gods Breath SHALL depart from a soul (and that soul destroyed).
* Spirit Life of a mans BODY...IS Gods Spirit “within” a man, ONLY given men WHOSE declaration of Belief IN the Lord God, Remains Constant, to the day that mans “Bodily Dies”.
* The ONLY “thing”.... that COULD FOREVER be “Torment”, IS a Forever Living thing.
* Forever living “thing” ?....Celestial things that ARE “Spirits”.
* Forever living “things” ?...Souls, with Gods Breath “IN” them Forever.
* Forever living “things” ?....”Spirits” which Have “Received” Gods Seed. (Ie Baptism of the Holy Spirit).
Torments “OF” Forever living things, IS the “Consequence”/ “Sentence”, FOR “forever living things...Created WITH Gods “SPIRIT” Truth...Who exercised their FREEWILL to REJECT Gods Truth....and Not only Stand AGAINST God...but also advocate FOR others to Stand AGAINST God.
Torments “OF” Forever living things, ... SOULS, which are ONLY forever Living, “IF” Gods Breath Remains “IN” the soul.
Torments “OF” Forever living things, ... SPIRITS, which are ONLY forever Living, “IF” Gods Spirit has GIVEN them Gods SEED.
A body of man.....SHALL die.
An UNSAVED soul SHALL have Gods LIfe Breath depart the soul and the soul destroyed.
A man not GIVEN Gods SEED, (via Holy Spirit Baptism) shall NOT have Gods Spiritual life in him.
WHAT of mans, Lifeless body, Lifeless soul, Lifeless spirit....Can experience FOREVER Torments? Nada.
Forever Torments applies to Celestial Spirits (that do not DIE), who freely Chose to Reject God and further advocated for others to Reject God.
Glory to God,
Taken
ScottA
Well-Known Member
With a proper understanding of "forever", the issue can be looked at differently, and should be.
In other words, to turn the logic of what occurs "forever" to the saved rather than the condemned...what do you imagine will ensue--days of spender and all that is good in the presence of God?
What then would the opposite look like for the condemned whose fate is also forever?
In other words, to turn the logic of what occurs "forever" to the saved rather than the condemned...what do you imagine will ensue--days of spender and all that is good in the presence of God?
What then would the opposite look like for the condemned whose fate is also forever?
RR144
Well-Known Member
Like already stated hell is an English word that is trying to convey the meaning of the Biblical texts of Hebrew and Greek. One needs to also understand that many Greek words are associated with the Greek Mythology mindset and meanings as is revealed by the word Hades associated with a god being of the underworld which is Mythology. The Hebrew word Sheol meaning pit, grave etc, has the same root שאל as to ask or request, seeking what is not known. To put it simply in the Hebrew mindset "the people who wrote the Bible" sheol is unknown, what is unknown which is the grave. In the Hebrew mindset if something is unknown well they leave it at that. Contrasted in the Greek mindset they need to know. It is either this or it is that, it is black or it is white. Not so with the Hebrew. Problem with having to have an answer, things and doctrines start to be invented and mythology comes in and redefining terms takes place. My current understanding is that the modern view of hell predominately comes from the medieval ages and a lot of art from that period especially by Dante's 13 levels of hell picture which then evolved into a doctrine and belief of what hell is. This is not supported with the scriptures when read from the original languages along with their meanings. English is a translation of these original languages and English words do not necessarily convey accurately the meanings of words from these languages. To the original author's who lived and spoke in a language and culture vastly different from ours, I don't believe the current view of hell was held by them.
One must read and understand the scriptures as much as possible from the perspective of the times they were written in and by whom they were written by. Not by a modern perspective and culture.
Maybe the right question is what do I need to do to avoid being separated from Yahweh.
Blessings and Shalom
One must read and understand the scriptures as much as possible from the perspective of the times they were written in and by whom they were written by. Not by a modern perspective and culture.
Maybe the right question is what do I need to do to avoid being separated from Yahweh.
Blessings and Shalom
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