2 Peter 3:10 The Big Whoosh

[ewq1938]

Of course the Kingdom exists NOW. But just like the Pharisees of old they are still looking for a physical manifestation of the Kingdom on this earth.

A physical kingdom is what is promised. It was not the Pharisee's error. Their error was expecting the kingdom to be in place and in power when the Messiah appeared which is NOT what the bible promised and NOT what happened.

Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the expectations of Amillennialists?


Yes.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amillennialists make the same error the Pharisees did by wanting the rule over the nations with a rod of iron to be happening now when the truth is that rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. He said "this IS that", not "this is LIKE that". You will go to any length to support your false doctrines. That is clear to me. It's shameful.

He literally said, "This is having been said by Joel."

 

[rwb]

A physical kingdom is what is promised. It was not the Pharisee's error. Their error was expecting the kingdom to be in place and in power when the Messiah appeared which is NOT what the bible promised and NOT what happened.

Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the expectations of Amillennialists?


Yes.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amillennialists make the same error the Pharisees did by wanting the rule over the nations with a rod of iron to be happening now when the truth is that rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

There was never a physical Kingdom of God promised to come to this earth! The millennialists, like the Pharisees must have a physical Kingdom on this earth because you and they lack understanding of the Spiritual Kingdom Christ brought when He came.

Since the Pharisees along with millennialists have no ability to understand the Spiritual Kingdom of Christ, you think when Christ ascended to heaven after His resurrection and was given dominion, glory, and a kingdom that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him, and everlasting dominion that will never pass away, and His kingdom never destroyed, is not a spiritual reality. You still look for the physical Kingdom that will not come to this earth because it will not be physical until after this earth passes away.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The millennialists cling to the same error of the Pharisees of old, looking and waiting for Christ to come in a physical Kingdom to this earth because you, like they lack spiritual discernment.

 

[ewq1938]

There was never a physical Kingdom of God promised to come to this earth!

That is biblically false. The kingdom already existed in the first century on Earth in believers so you are wrong.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


This is going on my list of Amill errors. You have made it on that list many many times!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A physical kingdom is what is promised. It was not the Pharisee's error. Their error was expecting the kingdom to be in place and in power when the Messiah appeared which is NOT what the bible promised and NOT what happened.

No, Jesus made it clear that their error was thinking that the Messiah's kingdom would come with observation. He said that it did not come with observation (Luke 17:20). You are making the same mistake as the Pharisees by thinking His kingdom will come with observation. The kingdom will not come with observation until Jesus comes and delivers the kingdom to the Father at the end of the age (1 Corinthians 15:22-24, Matt 13:40-43).

Did the false expectations the Pharisees had about the Messiah match the expectations of Amillennialists?


Yes.

The Pharisees expected the Messiah to rule right away but he didn't. His rule would come far into the future. Amillennialists make the same error the Pharisees did by wanting the rule over the nations with a rod of iron to be happening now when the truth is that rule comes in the future. That's Premillennialism.

Don't make the same Amillennialistic error the Pharisees did.

You are a liar. You keep spreading lies about Amils continually. We believe that He reigns now since scripture teaches that repeatedly (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-22, Col 1:13-14, Rev 1:5-6), but we do not believe that He rules the nations with a rod of iron now. We have made it very clear that we just have a different understanding of what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron than you do.

Psalm 2:7 I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father. 8 Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Passages like these make it very clear that Jesus "ruling" with a rod of iron involves Him breaking/destroying His enemies. You see that word "rule" and make assumptions about it without looking at the context in which it is used. He will not be ruling over His enemies the way you think He will. He will destroy them all when He returns, just as passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 19:15-18 indicate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is biblically false. The kingdom already existed in the first century on Earth in believers so you are wrong.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


This is going on my list of Amill errors. You have made it on that list many many times!

Why did you quote verse 21 without also quoting verse 20?

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Yes, the kingdom of God is within us because of the Holy Spirit being in us, but that doesn't make it a physical kingdom. A physical kingdom can be observed, but the previous verse, which you conveniently failed to quote, shows that His kingdom does not come with observation. Can you see the Holy Spirit? No. It's not a physical kingdom, it's a spiritual kingdom. So, this just another supposed error that is not an error at all.

Beyond all that, you know what he meant and you know that what he said is true in the context of what he was saying. He was saying that there isn't a physical kingdom of God on earth in the same sense that you are expecting there to be. And that is true.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He literally said, "This is having been said by Joel."

LOL. Nonsense. He was saying this (what was happening on the day of Pentecost) is what Joel prophesied about. That is obvious. I've never seen anyone deny obvious things more than you do.

Do you think Peter just decided to randomly quote a passage at that point that had nothing to do with what was going on at that time for no real reason? Apparently so. LOL.

 

[rwb]

That is biblically false. The kingdom already existed in the first century on Earth in believers so you are wrong.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


This is going on my list of Amill errors. You have made it on that list many many times!

The Kingdom is NOT of this earth even though it is within believers. How can that be? Christ tells us. His Kingdom though within the heart of believers cannot be observed, nor is it now of this world. Apparently possessing the Kingdom of God within does not mean it is ON this earth. Why? Because we cannot see that which is not physical but is spiritual. That's how the Kingdom of God can be within you, and also not be observed or of this world.

Luke 17:20 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

John 18:36 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Romans 14:17 (KJV) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

 

[Taken]

No, I'm not. Jesus's kingdom exists NOW as scripture makes very clear. When He comes again at the end of the age, He will deliver His kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:22-24, Matt 13:40-43).

Presently Jesus’ Kingdom IS INVISIBLE...
Jesus’ present Kingdom IS WITHIN “SOME” men.

In the future (personally I believe the NEAR future), Jesus’ Kingdom WILL BE visible (manifested <—-> ie ABLE to BE SEEN by the eyes of Human men)...
ON Earth....Boundaries of the LAND Promised to Abraham and his Faithful Descendent's, it’s Throne, king David’s everlasting throne in Jerusalem, Where King Jesus shall rule the mortal kingdoms of the world.

Thereafter ^^ THOSE DAYS; (ie. MORE prophetic prophecies that must first come to pass)....THEN shall the Son Deliver Up to His Father...His Kingdom...
Which SHALL THEN BE the Land mass of the Entire New Earth and the New Jerusalem.

THEN shall men SEE, what they COULD NOT BELIEVE “without seeing”...
The Father and Son ARE ONE Lord God Almighty. (John 10:30)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Presently Jesus’ Kingdom IS INVISIBLE...
Jesus’ present Kingdom IS WITHIN “SOME” men.

At least you acknowledge that His kingdom currently exists. That's progress.

In the future (personally I believe the NEAR future), Jesus’ Kingdom WILL BE visible (manifested <—-> ie ABLE to BE SEEN by the eyes of Human men)...
ON Earth...

Yes, but He will be delivering His kingdom to the Father when He comes at the end of the age, which is what is taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 and Matthew 13:40-43. So, at that point the visible kingdom will be what Jesus called "the kingdom of their Father" in Matthew 13:43.

.Boundaries of the LAND Promised to Abraham and his Faithful Descendent's

Do you think that is what Abraham and his faithful descendants are looking forward to? If so, you should read Hebrews 11 so that you can understand that they are looking forward to something better, a heavenly country and a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God.

, it’s Throne, king David’s everlasting throne in Jerusalem, Where King Jesus shall rule the mortal kingdoms of the world.

Jesus has already been placed on David's throne. According to Peter, Jesus was raised up to David's throne by way of being raised up from the dead.

Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

This is very clear. Peter equated the resurrection of Christ and Him being "exalted to the right hand of God" and being made "Lord and Messiah" with the fulfillment of David's prophecy of God promising him that one of his descendants would be placed on his throne.

 

[ewq1938]

The Kingdom is NOT of this earth even though it is within believers.

LOL, you are obviously wrong. The kingdom is in Earthly believers but that kingdoms direct authority is not yet in power. When it is, the world will be a Theocracy. That's one of several ways we know Christ is not ruling the Earth and it's people currently.

 

[Taken]

At least you acknowledge that His kingdom currently exists. That's progress.


Yes, but He will be delivering His kingdom to the Father when He comes at the end of the age, which is what is taught in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 and Matthew 13:40-43. So, at that point the visible kingdom will be what Jesus called "the kingdom of their Father" in Matthew 13:43.


Do you think that is what Abraham and his faithful descendants are looking forward to? If so, you should read Hebrews 11 so that you can understand that they are looking forward to something better, a heavenly country and a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God.


Jesus has already been placed on David's throne. According to Peter, Jesus was raised up to David's throne by way of being raised up from the dead.

Acts 2:29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, “‘The Lord said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.”’ 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

This is very clear. Peter equated the resurrection of Christ and Him being "exalted to the right hand of God" and being made "Lord and Messiah" with the fulfillment of David's prophecy of God promising him that one of his descendants would be placed on his throne.

What you are noting as progress, is nothing new.
Your scriptural quotes are not news.

Knowing what IS and BELIEVING “without” SEEING the manifestation of Gods works IN a man ARE two different things.

God IS working magnificent and permanent works “WITHIN” men, that IS unseen to the EYES of moral men....(ie. OSAS).....and BTW Falsely argued by some men that Gods “permanent works with-IN a man”, can be reversed, LOST, revoked.

The common mortal knowledge IS, “sons become the father”.
Scriptural knowledge is Jesus was “introduced as the Son”.
Jesus and His Father ARE ONE God.
Jesus “as” the Son, WITH POWER, shall rule His Physical Earthly Kingdom FOR 1,000 years.
Jesus “as” the Father, WITH POWER, shall rule His Whole Heavenly and World Kingdom FOR-EVER.

 

[Truth7t7]

You really can't see that your vocabulary is incendiary?

I would say the same about your teachings and beliefs, as you deny the deity of Jesus Christ being God manifest in the flesh, eternal, the Alpha/Omega, creator of all things seen and unseen

Jesus Christ Is The Lord God Almighty!

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. Nonsense. He was saying this (what was happening on the day of Pentecost) is what Joel prophesied about. That is obvious. I've never seen anyone deny obvious things more than you do.

Do you think Peter just decided to randomly quote a passage at that point that had nothing to do with what was going on at that time for no real reason? Apparently so. LOL.

Well, you believe in partial fulfillment and I don't. I maintain that Peter finds correspondence between Pentecost and Joel 2, but Peter isn't saying that Pentecost fulfills Joel 2.

But you must remain sensitive to and cognizant of your own assumptions. The idea that a prophecy can be partially fulfilled is an idea that comes from outside the Bible. Maybe it's true; maybe it isn't. But if you are going to argue your position, not only do you need to prove what Peter meant, you first need to prove your assumption that a prophecy can be partially fulfilled.

 

[Phoneman777]

Hi all,
I just finished my latest video, which was inspired by my discussion with folks on the thread concerning Amillennialism. I want to thank all those who stuck with me and helped me understand the topic better.

Here is a link to the video.

Title: The Big Whoosh 2Peter 3:10

Opening line: Today we are going to examine 2 Peter chapter 3. Peter will mention the Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ, but his main point is focused on the believer's standpoint with regard to the total destruction of the heavens and the earth, or what I am calling the “Big Whoosh” based on Peter's remark that the heavens and earth will pass away with a roar.

I hope you enjoy it. Let me know what you think.

@WPM @Spiritual Israelite @Timtofly @Truth7t7 @covenantee @Randy Kluth @jeffweeder @Marty fox @Charlie24 @stunnedbygrace @The Light

There should be no confusion as to whether the 1,000 reign of Christ is spiritual or literal. Please consider the following:

Why prophetic symbolism?​

Bluntly talking or writing about the end of kings and kingdoms was the quickest way for a person to end up a corpse...which is why, for instance, Paul stopped short of naming the identity of the "restrainer" (which kept in check the rise of the "man of sin" Antichrist) in his letter to the Thessalonians after he'd plainly told them the identity of it in person - the pagan Roman Empire, according to every single Early Church Father who had anything to say about it. This is the primary reason for God's inspired prophetic symbolism in His revelations of things to come - to conceal the identity of kings and kingdoms which rise and fall on His prophetic timeline. However, no such danger anymore threatens God's people after Jesus comes "as a thief in the night" when the "big whoosh" happens and everything is turned upside down and the life-sustaining atmosphere is burned up - therefore, there's no need to speak of the millennial reign in prophetic symbolism: it is a literal 1,000 year reign of the saints with Christ, but not on Earth which the "big whoosh" renders unable to sustain life for 7 more seconds, let alone a so-called "7 years of tribulation". This literal reign is above in heaven.

"Wait, Phoneman777, what about where it says Jesus will rule all nations with a rod of iron?" Psalms 2:9 and Daniel 2:34; 44-45 KJV answer that:

"Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."​

​

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.​

​

"Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure."​

 

[ewq1938]

"Wait, Phoneman777, what about where it says Jesus will rule all nations with a rod of iron?"

Psalms 2:9 and Daniel 2:34; 44-45 KJV answer that:

No, they don't. RULING is peaceful not violent.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.


RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, they don't. RULING is peaceful not violent.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Seriously? You honestly can't see how contradictory your comment is? Really?

There's nothing "peaceful" about "smite" and "rule them with a rod of iron" and "treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God".

RULE

G4165
poimaino
poy-mah'ee-no
From G4166; to tend as a shepherd (or figuratively superviser): - feed (cattle), rule.
Total KJV occurrences: 11

G4165
poimaino
Thayer Definition:
1) to feed, to tend a flock, keep sheep
1a) to rule, govern
1a1) of rulers
1a2) to furnish pasture for food
1a3) to nourish
1a4) to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
1a5) to supply the requisites for the soul’s need
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4166
Citing in TDNT: 6:485, 901

There is nothing violent about poimaino.

Hello!
It doesn't merely say "rule"!
If it did, you'd have a point!
It says, "rule with a rod of iron" which is a qualifier denoting violence!

And Daniel's prophecy should be enough to show us that when the Stone comes, it immediately smites every other kingdom into oblivion!

 

[CadyandZoe]

I would say the same about your teachings and beliefs, as you deny the deity of Jesus Christ being God manifest in the flesh, eternal, the Alpha/Omega, creator of all things seen and unseen

Jesus Christ Is The Lord God Almighty!

Colossians 2:9-10KJV
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Well, I'm very sorry to upset you. I didn't mean for that to happen. It was not my intent to promote my beliefs on this matter and I didn't even bring it up. I was asked a direct question about it and I didn't shrink from a response. I always tell the truth as I see it. If you would like to discuss it more, I am willing. But I am also willing to drop the subject.

 

[Truth7t7]

Well, I'm very sorry to upset you. I didn't mean for that to happen. It was not my intent to promote my beliefs on this matter and I didn't even bring it up. I was asked a direct question about it and I didn't shrink from a response. I always tell the truth as I see it. If you would like to discuss it more, I am willing. But I am also willing to drop the subject.

I'm not upset one bit, just keeping up on your beliefs and teachings, so the forum may openly know who CadyandZoe is

You deny the deity of Jesus Christ being God manifest in the flesh, you believe and teach Christians should read man's philosophy sympathetically "Darwin", setting aside personal beliefs and opinions

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[rwb]

LOL, you are obviously wrong. The kingdom is in Earthly believers but that kingdoms direct authority is not yet in power. When it is, the world will be a Theocracy. That's one of several ways we know Christ is not ruling the Earth and it's people currently.

I gave you the verses that show how and why you know not what you speak of! You can laugh and mock the Word of God to your hearts content, it won't change the fact that Christ is currently ruling over all creation from His Kingdom in heaven, just as the Word proves He is. Though the Kingdom is within believers, His Kingdom, He rules from, is in heaven. It will NEVER be found ON this earth because this earth is not eternal, and His Kingdom is. When Christ returns and His Kingdom with His people comes down from heaven with Him it will be for eternity on the new earth.