A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

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Aunty Jane

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Much of what you believe about holidays is from Alexander Hislop’s discredited book The Two Babylons. You might want to do some research yourself before accusing others of ignorance. The Two Babylons - Wikipedia
Have you ever made a connection between the two Babylons.....? Perhaps its time to do some homework yourself on why there is a "greater Babylon" in our day....and we are told to "get out of" "Babylon the great" (Revelation 18:4-5).....so what is this harlot that we must have nothing to do with?
 

RLT63

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Have you ever made a connection between the two Babylons.....? Perhaps its time to do some homework yourself on why there is a "greater Babylon" in our day....and we are told to "get out of" "Babylon the great" (Revelation 18:4-5).....so what is this harlot that we must have nothing to do with?
Some say it’s the Catholic Church, some say false religion, some say Islam. There are many interpretations and everyone thinks their interpretation is the correct one
 
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Keiw

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I celebrate Christmas and do not celebrate santa- so your statement is a lie. I know of tens of thousand sof followers of Jesus who celebrate Christmas and exclude Santa.
You dont have to celebrate him, he is shoved down everyones throat for 31 straight days. In the stores, on the TV, and the music.
Jesus wasnt born on Dec 25th, The sheperds were in the field all night, that doesnt occur in December in Israel. It would be like someone celebrating your birthday in June but you were born in April.
 
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Aunty Jane

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I celebrate Christmas and do not celebrate santa- so your statement is a lie. I know of tens of thousand sof followers of Jesus who celebrate Christmas and exclude Santa.
So that makes it OK then......it doesn't matter that its a borrowed pagan festival adopted to appease the worshippers of false gods hundreds of years after Christ gave his life for those who would value true worship, as opposed to those who would sacrifice truth for their own convenience and pay homage to the god of greed and lies......there are only two kinds of worship in a world where satan rules (1 John 5:19)......true worship, which must be painted in the worst possible light.....and false worship, which is made to look like the real McCoy....
Truth is what is sacrificed....not Christ.
Does 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 mean nothing to you.....?

How many even know what real Christianity looks like, when the fake one has been presented as the real thing for almost 2,000 years.

If tens of thousands of those who claim to follow Christ, celebrate Christmas when God told us to touch nothing "unclean"...then to whom is Christmas "unclean"? Certainly not to Christendom. That's like saying I celebrate Easter but without the Easter bunny and the Easter eggs....Easter is still the name of the false goddess whose festival you observe......or like Halloween but without the evil stuff.....you cannot separate Christmas, Easter or Halloween from their pagan roots. Someone is having a lend of you, and laughing at you all the way to the same judgement that is awaiting him. (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 25:31-34; 41, 46) "Few" are on the road to life for a reason. (Matthew 7:13-14)
 
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Aunty Jane

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Some say it’s the Catholic Church, some say false religion, some say Islam. There are many interpretations and everyone thinks their interpretation is the correct one
What do you know about original Babylon that would help you make the connection do you think?
 

Aunty Jane

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I think there are more important issues to be concerned with
Luke 16:10...
"The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much."
We cannot afford to get it wrong, even in the small things, because if we blow it on the small things, that makes it easier to be less vigilant with the bigger issues.
 

RLT63

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What do you know about original Babylon that would help you make the connection do you think?
Everyone was united in speech, there was one leader. A lot like the globalist movement we see today
 

L.A.M.B.

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Let us take a look at what God has said.
First we must look again to the beginning at creation and history.

The Jewish ppl were separated unto God to be an holy nation thru Abraham. A stand alone group that followed only one God. They received commandments and laws to help them be this chosen ppl.

God instituted their WORSHIP festivals of REMEMBRANCE at each beginning of righteousness they followed.

Now we know from then unto today these Jewish ppl still follow these festivals bc of their unbelief in a saviour God, whom they rejected and who continue to refuse his New Covenant thru their Messiah.God will judge.

Even King David danced naked before the Lord and ppl in celebration of what God had done for the nation thru himself.

Births, deaths and celebrations of honor to God are recognized in the word and not rebuked. So in light of this, I do not think celebrations are against God.

What I do think makes it sin before the Lord is where the honour, love and praise is placed.

Only unbelievers celebrate the pagan and worldly aspects of any celebratory event.

Jesus was to be given the gifts by the magi at his being born; saviour to the world of sinners. It was in honour they bowed before the young child and gave into him.
Some of the things they gave were very costly and probably sustained his family in the moving about to keep Jesus safe.

Weddings were also attended by the redeemer himself, so the assumption is he was NOT against this celebration either.

Jesus instituted Communion himself at the last Passover supper they shared to commemorate his coming death.

The Angels REJOICE in heaven at the re- birth of one sinner. There is forever praises, glory, honour and worship of God in heaven, continually!

So I say unto all, know as well as you can your hearts motivation, be a good steward of the things God has blessed you with, and let the Spirit be your guide in ALL you do.

Above scripture ( paraphrased) from the word is here eventhough, I have not quoted you book, chapter, and verse. If you KNOW GODS WORD then TRUTH is easily recognized !!!!!
 
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The Learner

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As I said, Christendom has been judging people for awhile now for not observing these holidays and celebrations and that shows Christendom thinks people should go by what they say not by what God's word says. This shows that Christendom has put these holidays and celebrations in equal status with God's inspired word when they judged anyone wrong in any kind of way or sense for not observing these holidays and celebrations, they're not in God's word. I don't think Christendom will stop judging people wrong for not observing these holidays and celebrations so maybe they think what imperfect men say is equal to God's statutes and commands. But you just don't command imperfect men to obey commands from imperfect men. That's why it's so important to stick with what God has inspired men to write down and in his inspired word the True God tells us not to go beyond what he has inspired men to write down. We are to go by what God says not what imperfect men say.
Also these holidays are rooted in false religion, therefore, they're rooted in demons. You don't take what's rooted in demons and apply it in anyway to the truth of God's word or how you worship or serve the True God YHWH or how you should remember Jesus. These holidays have nothing to do with how people are to remember Jesus. God has given us the day and way to remember Jesus and that is sufficient. God's word doesn't need to be added to on how we should remember Jesus when the the True God has given us what we need in his word and his word shouldn't be added to as though what God has given us in his word concerning how to remember Jesus isn't enough. The fact that Christendom cares about these man made holidays and celebrations as much as they do even though they're not in God's word shows they care more about their man made holidays and celebrations than they do the inspired word of God.
1 Corinthians 5:12, NLT: It isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

Those who are celebrating Jesus are not sinning. Nor, do those in the church see holliween as celebrating paganism.
 
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The Learner

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for considerations, did not check contexts



Genesis 25:6
But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Exodus 28:38
And it shall be upon Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be accepted before the Lord.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord.

Numbers 18:29
Out of all your giftsye shall offer every heave offering of the Lord, of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it.

2 Samuel 8:2
And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line, casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.

2 Samuel 8:6
Then David put garrisons in Syria of Damascus: and the Syrians became servants to David, and brought gifts. And the Lord preserved David whithersoever he went.

1 Chronicles 18:2
And he smote Moab; and the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.

1 Chronicles 18:6
Then David put garrisons in Syriadamascus; and the Syrians became David's servants, and brought gifts. Thus the Lord preserved David whithersoever he went.

2 Chronicles 19:7
Wherefore now let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

2 Chronicles 21:3
And their father gave them great giftsof silver, and of gold, and of precious things, with fenced cities in Judah: but the kingdom gave he to Jehoram; because he was the firstborn.

2 Chronicles 26:8
And the Ammonites gave giftsto Uzziah: and his name spread abroad even to the entering in of Egypt; for he strengthened himself exceedingly.

2 Chronicles 32:23
And many brought giftsunto the Lord to Jerusalem, and presents to Hezekiah king of Judah: so that he was magnified in the sight of all nations from thenceforth.

Esther 2:18
Then the king made a great feast unto all his princes and his servants, even Esther's feast; and he made a release to the provinces, and gave gifts, according to the state of the king.

Esther 9:22
As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and giftsto the poor.

Psalm 68:18
Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received giftsfor men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

Psalm 72:10
The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.

Proverbs 6:35
He will not regard any ransom; neither will he rest content, though thou givest many gifts.

Proverbs 19:6
Many will intreat the favour of the prince: and every man is a friend to him that giveth gifts.

Isaiah 1:23
Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Ezekiel 16:33
They give gifts to all whores: but thou givest thy giftsto all thy lovers, and hirest them, that they may come unto thee on every side for thy whoredom.

Ezekiel 20:26
And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 20:31
For when ye offer your gifts, when ye make your sons to pass through the fire, ye pollute yourselves with all your idols, even unto this day: and shall I be enquired of by you, O house of Israel? As I live, saith the Lord God, I will not be enquired of by you.

Ezekiel 20:39
As for you, O house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; Go ye, serve ye every one his idols, and hereafter also, if ye will not hearken unto me: but pollute ye my holy name no more with your gifts, and with your idols.


Daniel 2:6
But if ye shew the dream, and the interpretation thereof, ye shall receive of me giftsand rewards and great honour: therefore shew me the dream, and the interpretation thereof.

Daniel 2:48
Then the king made Daniel a great man, and gave him many great gifts, and made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon, and chief of the governors over all the wise men of Babylon.

Daniel 5:17
Then Daniel answered and said before the king, Let thy giftsbe to thyself, and give thy rewards to another; yet I will read the writing unto the king, and make known to him the interpretation.

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 7:11
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good giftsunto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good giftsunto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Luke 21:5
And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

Romans 11:29
For the giftsand calling of God are without repentance.

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave giftsunto men.
 

RLT63

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Luke 16:10...
"The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much."
We cannot afford to get it wrong, even in the small things, because if we blow it on the small things, that makes it easier to be less vigilant with the bigger issues.
Matthew 23:23
 
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The Learner

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That is absurd. When the JW,s were in the concentration camps being murdered, Rutherford would not support Hitler ever. Maybe they twist what Rutherford said.
I never heard pictures were idols. Idolotry lives within one.
1669473564841.png1669473629517.png1669473650338.png
 

The Learner

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Following is part of an English translation of the Letter to Hitler.

"Dear Reichskanzler,

The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.

In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and Catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and its board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to repudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.

The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namely: honesty of the created being towards its creator.

The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

...

We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.

Yours faithfully,
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg"
 

The Learner

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The Yearbook 1974 briefly refers to this Letter to Hitler, along with the Declaration of Facts.

"The conventioners returned home tired and many were disappointed. They took 2,100,000 copies of the "declaration" home with them, however, and made fast work of distributing them and sending them to numerous persons in positions of responsibility. The copy sent to Hitler was accompanied by a letter that, in part, read:

"The Brooklyn presidency of the Watch Tower Society is and always has been exceedingly friendly to Germany. In 1918 the president of the Society and seven members of the Board of Directors in America were sentenced to 80 years' imprisonment for the reason that the president refused to let two magazines in America, which he edited, be used in war propaganda against Germany."

Even though the declaration had been weakened and many brothers could not wholeheartedly agree to its adoption, yet the government was enraged and started a wave of persecution against those who had distributed it." Yearbook 1974 p.111

Declaration of Facts​

Rutherford and Knorr organized a District Convention in Berlin on 25th June, 1933 to release the "Declaration of Facts," printed as a 4 page pamplet, which outlined Watchtower's support of the German governments stance against Jews, the USA, Britain and France.

Click on the thumbnails to enlarge scans of the Declaration of Facts in German.
 

The Learner

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Jeremiah 10

New Catholic Bible

Chapter 10​

The True God. 1 Listen to the word that the Lord addresses to you, O house of Israel. 2 Thus says the Lord:
Do not adopt the ways of the nations
or become frightened at the signs in the heavens,[a]
even though the nations are terrified of them.
3 For the carved images of the nations are powerless;
they are nothing more than wood cut from a forest,
fashioned with a knife by craftsmen
4 and embellished with silver and gold.
Then they are fastened with hammers and nails
to prevent them from toppling.
5 Like scarecrows in a cucumber field
they are unable to speak,
and they must be carried from place to place
since they cannot walk.
Do not be afraid of them,
for they can do no harm,
nor do they have any power to do good.
6 O Lord, there is no one like you;
you are great,
and great is the might of your name.
7 Who would not fear you,
O King of the nations?
This is your due.
Of all the wisest men in the nations
and throughout all their kingdoms,
there is no one like you.
8 They are all senseless and foolish,
and the idols they venerate are nothing but wood,
9 adorned with beaten silver from Tarshish
and gold from Ophir.
Their idols are the work of craftsmen and goldsmiths
and clothed with violet and purple;

all of them are the product of skilled workers.
10 But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God and the everlasting King.
When confronted with his wrath the earth quakes,
and no nation can endure his fury.
11 Convey this message to them: The gods who did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.

The so-called proof text is not a Christmas Tree, No Christian bows to one in worship. The context is clealy, one cutting down trees for wood, carving the wood into an idol. Covering it in metal. None of that is done to a Christmas Tree.
 

The Learner

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While today, the Christmas holiday is not celebrated by Jehovah’s Witnesses, this was not always the case.

From the Watch Tower Society’s founding up to the 1930’s, Christmas was not viewed as a pagan holiday and was celebrated. Even back then, the cross was not viewed as a pagan symbol as it is now and the symbol of the cross appeared on every issue of the Watch Tower magazine up to October 15, 1931.

Below are two photographs. The first is a photograph of the Watch Tower headquarters staff celebrating Christmas in the Brooklyn Bethel dining room in 1926. J.F. Rutherford sits at the head of the table. The second photograph is of a January 1, 1931 Watch Tower magazine. Notice the symbol of the cross in the upper left corner.
1669474807074.png

The point of this short article is not to express,”See, Jehovah’s Witnesses did celebrate Christmas or believed in the cross.” No, but rather to show that error can be taught as truth.

At one point in it’s history, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society thought the Christmas celebration, the cross, and even smoking were OK. In many places in the Southern United States – and for quite some time – the congregations were segregated. African Americans did not sit alongside Whites and they did not use the same washroom facilities. Of course, today, that is not the case.

It stands to reason, then, that some of what is believed to be true by the Watch Tower organization today could also be in error.