The Godly Heresy of Sinless Perfectionism

[bbyrd009]

As a man of God: Are you concerned with lost souls?

Me, a man of God? I am evil, and men’s lives are their own, wadr

Do you truly want people to know the truth of God's Word?

why else would i continue here with you today, apparently in vain, on that very subject, that you cannot or will not hear?

Then why make it harder for them to understand you?

ah, you think you understand Word?
pray tell then, what have you heard

That is what puzzles me with your writing approach here.

man, wait till you hear some Word then lol

ok really late now, and this site is driving me batshit, having to build every italics now etc, the ads, the smells, arg

yall have a good day ok

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Correct you are, we are in disagreement.

It's one thing to disagree, but it is another matter to prove with evidence if one is actually correct or not. You would think you would quote the Word of God to make your case and not the words of men or worldly wisdom or in trying to make it personal.

 

[amadeus]

ha and wise up the marks, you mean? Not happening bro, sorry
wouldnt help anyway…the way you imagine, in your mind…
i mean, if you cannot hear it, then you just arent hearing it, and were i or even Yah Himself drag you to it in plain language before your are ready, it would just be denied anyway
at least in my experience

Mt 13:10	And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mt 13:11	He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mt 13:12	For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mt 13:13	Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mt 13:14	And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mt 13:15	For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Johann]

Answering those questions may be helpful, but without God's help how far can a person go? The Father is perfect and we are to be like Him. He is seemingly unlimited, but we, what is our limit? How may we, if we may, exceed our boundaries?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Is not the only limit on what God can do with regard to a man placed on Himself by the power that God gave to the man as established by God's own Word? Does not then man limit God?



What is our purpose before God when a brother with his eye on us stumbles? Do we know? God surely does.

If God is sinlessly perfect, what is that? What is our goal? Forward to the impossible?

Brother, be cautious...
Straining Toward the Goal

Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Php 3:16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
Php 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Notice all the verbs

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Yes?
J.

 

[MatthewG]

Answering those questions may be helpful, but without God's help how far can a person go? The Father is perfect and we are to be like Him. He is seemingly unlimited, but we, what is our limit? How may we, if we may, exceed our boundaries?

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:27

Is not the only limit on what God can do with regard to a man placed on Himself by the power that God gave to the man as established by God's own Word? Does not then man limit God?



What is our purpose before God when a brother with his eye on us stumbles? Do we know? God surely does.

If God is sinlessly perfect, what is that? What is our goal? Forward to the impossible?

The only thing that comes to my mind Amadeus, is this:

Romans 1:16-17

New International Reader's Version

​

16 I want to preach it because I’m not ashamed of the good news. It is God’s power to save everyone who believes. It is meant first for the Jews. It is meant also for the Gentiles. 17 The good news shows God’s power to make people right with himself. God’s power to be made right with him is given to the person who has faith. It happens by faith from beginning to end. It is written, “The one who is right with God will live by faith.” (Habakkuk 2:4)

 

[Bob Estey]

Are you perfect in word, thought and deed?
No need to confess sin?

The heresy of Perfectionism.

Some might not say, with the Antinomians, that they were absolved from the obligation of the moral law, but they maintained that they were done with sin, had no more sinful propensities, committed no more sinful acts.

In opposition hereto the Apostle asserts two facts: (1) Inherent corruption. Distinguish ἁμαρτίαν ἔχειν (“to have sin”) and ἁμαρτάνειν (“to sin”), corresponding to the sinful principle and its manifestation in specific acts.

Our natures are poisoned, the taint is in our blood. Grace is the medicine, but recovery is a protracted process. It is begun the moment we submit ourselves to Christ, but all our lives we continue under treatment. πλανῶμεν, “lead astray” (cf. Mat_18:12). ἡ ἀλήθεια, in Johannine phraseology not simply “der Wahrheitssinn, die Wahrhaftigkeit der Selbstprüfung und der Selbsterkenntniss” (Rothe), but the revelation of “the True God” (ver. 20; Joh_17:3), which came “through Jesus Christ” (Joh_1:17), Himself “the Truth” (Joh_14:6).

Nearly equivalent to ὁ λόγος (1Jn_1:10). The Truth is a splendid ideal, never realised here, else it would cease to be an ideal; always as we pursue it displaying a fuller glory, And thus the nearer we approach it the further off it seems; when we walk in the light we see faults which were hidden in the darkness. Self-abasement is a characteristic of the saints.

When Juan de Avila (A.D. 1500–69) was dying the rector of his college approached him and said: “What joy it must be to you to think of meeting the Saviour!” “Ah!” said the saint, “rather do I tremble at the thought of my sins.” (2)

The frequent falls of the believer. We all “have sinned (ἡμαρτήκαμεν),” i.e., committed acts of sin (ἁμαρτίας) manifesting the strength and activity of the sinful principle (ἡ ἁμαρτία) in our souls. This, however, is no reason for despair.

There is a remedy—forgiveness and cleansing in the blood of Jesus; and there is a way of obtaining it—confession. πιστός, i.e., to His promise (cf. Heb_10:23). δίκαιος: He would be unrighteous if He broke His promise ratified by the blood of Jesus.

Peace is not got by denying our sinfulness and our sins, but by frankly confessing them and availing ourselves, continually and repeatedly, of the gracious remedy.

“Woe to that soul which presumes to think that he can approach God in any other way than as a sinner asking mercy. Know yourself to be wicked, and God will wrap you up warm in the mantle of His goodness” (Juan de Avila).

“Remission of sins cannot be sundered from penitence, nor can the peace of God belong to consciences where the fear of God does not reign” (Calv.).

Perfectionism has two causes: (1) The stifling of conscience: “we make Him a liar, i.e., turn a deaf ear to His inward testimony, His voice in our souls.

(2) Ignorance of His Word: it “is not in us”. Such a delusion were impossible if we steeped our minds in the Scriptures. Consider the lapses of the saints, e.g., David, Peter....and many more...
You want the source?

Shalom
J.

By the way, what do you call it if a person succeeds in completely repenting of his sin?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Me, a man of God? I am evil, and men’s lives are their own, wadr

1 Timothy 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

Psalms 7:11
God is angry with the wicked every day.

Isaiah 48:22
There is no peace, saith the LORD, unto the wicked.

John 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

this site is driving me batshit,

Ephesians 4:29
Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

 

[bbyrd009]

Well, because you are not speaking clearly enough for me to understand you properly.
What grade level education are you at?

lol
it always gets asked, pretty much just like that, right about here somewhere

So you write this way because you have a problem with the King James Bible?

a priceless ref imo, that hides as much as it reveals
you know pray just meant wish back then eh

Talk to me in English please.

a most ambivalent language wadr

If not, I will ignore your incoherent ramblings and your efforts to write will be as if they were nonexistent and useless.

well to you at least, yes

Why would you want others to think you are drunk?
The Bible condemns one in being drunk.

ah…well i guess i unfort have the advantage of you there
you might seek “drunk at noon” for more…
actually thats the more common euphemism i guess, its really “drunk at nine am” more precisely?
“they are not drunk, as you suppose”
ok bye

 

[amadeus]

By the way, what do you call it if a person succeeds in completely repenting of his sin?

What is an overcomer?

 

[amadeus]

The only thing that comes to my mind Amadeus, is this:

Romans 1:16-17​

​

New International Reader's Version​

​

​

16 I want to preach it because I’m not ashamed of the good news. It is God’s power to save everyone who believes. It is meant first for the Jews. It is meant also for the Gentiles. 17 The good news shows God’s power to make people right with himself. God’s power to be made right with him is given to the person who has faith. It happens by faith from beginning to end. It is written, “The one who is right with God will live by faith.” (Habakkuk 2:4)

And what is faith, my friend?

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb 11:11

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfectionism:

Sinless Perfectionism is the goal of our Sanctification. It is yet another Biblical doctrine that is commonly misunderstood and or denied amongst Eternal Security Proponents or those who do not believe that “Sin Cannot Separate a Believer From God.” Here is a...

List of Verses For Sinless Perfectionism (a.k.a. Entire Sanctification) in Scripture:

1. The 144,000 are found without fault before the throne of God. For John says, “And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” (Revelation 14:3-5).
   
   
2. Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).
   
   
3. GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).
   
   
4. Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).
   
   
5. Jesus says, “If you want to be perfect sell your possessions and give them to the poor” (Matthew 19:21).
   
   
6. We are told in Scripture that he [i.e. anyone] that has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin. For Peter says, “Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;” (1 Peter 4:1).
   
   
7. Paul says, “And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Galatians 5:24).
   
   
8. James says, “If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2).
   
   
9. Paul says, “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#10. David says, “Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.” (Psalms 119:11).

#11. Paul says, “Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him” (Romans 6:6-8).

#12. Paul says, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12). John says, “sin not.” (1 John 2:1).

#13. Paul says, “For sin shall not have dominion over you.” (Romans 6:14).

#14. Paul says, “Don't you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.” (Romans NLT). Jesus says, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34). John says he that sins is of the devil (1 John 3:8).

#15. Paul says, “You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.” (Romans 6:18 NIV).

#16. Paul says, “For when you were slaves of sin, you were free from righteousness.” (Romans 6:20 BLB). Paul also says, “But now that you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves, the benefit you reap is sanctification, and the result is eternal life.” (Romans 6:22 ISV).

#17. Peter says, “there are false prophets... who cannot cease from sin.” (2 Peter 2:1, 2 Peter 2:14). This is similar to those who are lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of GOD (1 Timothy 3:1-9). For he that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:4).

#18. Jesus says, “Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.” (Matthew 26:41). What is the point of watching and praying so as not to be led into temptation if you are going to inevitably sin again?

#19. Paul says “Be ye angry, and sin not:” (Ephesians 4:26).

#20. John says, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:9-10)

#21. John says,“For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” (1 John 5:4). John also says, “For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.” (1 John 2:16). For John says, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” (1 John 2:15).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

#22. Paul says, “Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34).

#23. The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

#24. John says, “We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” (1 John 5:18-19).

#25. Sinless Perfectionism is the goal for a believer’s life. For Paul says, “Not that I have already obtained it [this goal of being Christlike] or have already been made perfect, but I actively press on so that I may take hold of that [perfection] for which Christ Jesus took hold of me and made me His own.” (Philippians 3:12 AMP).

#26. Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

#27. Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

#28. Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

#29. James says, “But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.” (James 1:4). James also says, ““Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?” (James 2:22).

#30. Jesus says, ““Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.” (Revelation 3:2).

#31. Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

#32. Paul says, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication: That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4). Paul also says, “For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.” (1 Thessalonians 4:7).

#33. Zacharias says, “That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.” (Luke 1:74-75).

 

[Johann]

It's one thing to disagree, but it is another matter to prove with evidence if one is actually correct or not. You would think you would quote the Word of God to make your case and not the words of men or worldly wisdom or in trying to make it personal.

You have made a lot of uncalled for assumptions on my behalf, [that means...sinning]
You are in no position to give me an Imperative what to use, and what not to use re secondary sources brother.

The one who wants to get personal is you
As I have said before...if you are "perfect" in word, thought and deed, then well done, you don't need to stand before the Judge since you are a "little god" with no accountability, no need for striving, no more need for growth, no need for sanctification, yes?

You want to ekpeiradzo me?

Who started this nonsense re "sinless perfection?"

Wesley and Finney, yes?

Not even our brother Paul claimed what you are claiming.

1Ki 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.


1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


Twice, for emphasis.

You say you take the whole Bible at face value? Why don't you like 1 John and what stands written, Perfect Tense?
J.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

post pending.

 

[Johann]

what do you call it if a person succeeds in completely repenting of his sin?

Confession is the act of the recognition of sin, and choosing to turn from it and experience the forgiveness of God. We need to develop a regular practice of asking the Holy Spirit to search our hearts and reveal any sin in our lives
Yes?
J.

 

[bbyrd009]

So you write this way because you have a problem with the King James Bible?

hopefully the irony of one insisting “God hates homosexuals” in one thread whilst simultaneously expressing any interest whatsoever in a surely homosexual king’s translation in another is lost to all and sundry…
forsooth
no offense meant ok

 

[bbyrd009]

Confession is the act of the recognition of sin, and choosing to turn from it and experience the forgiveness of God. We need to develop a regular practice of asking the Holy Spirit to search our hearts and reveal any sin in our lives
Yes?
J.

what might also be contemplated is the thing about a sin for me might not be a sin for you
wish i could stay for it!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

post pending.

 

[Bob Estey]

What is an overcomer?

That is correct, and you are our new Jeopardy champion.