Dropship
Well-Known Member
If Jesus is God (as some people think), he wouldn't have said-
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
"I am going to the Father, for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?
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amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
They receive the invitation through the preaching of the gospel . Its true that many will reject but at least some will hear .
LET GOD be the one who adds those souls . Our duty is to simply preach truth . But again todays leaders
teach it aint our job or duty to teach truth , to correct . WRONGTHEY ARE my friend . That is how leaven fills places full .
I bet those who teach that , would be furious at me if i saw their own child skating on thin ice
but then followed their advice and said nothing or did nothing to HELP SAVE that child . SORRY but todays mindset
dont judge , dont correct is dead wrong . I just bet they would say WHERE WAS YOUR LOVE amigo
WHERE was your love for my child when you saw them getting ready to get on thin ice . WHY didnt you warn them amigo .
TO WHICH I SAY , HEY LEADERS , WHERE IS YOUR LOVE FOR YOUR OWN PEOPLES who are in danger . WHERE IS YOUR LOVE
to GOD and to CHRIST and to humanity , WHEN YOU WONT CORRECT those in error , EITHER . PEROID .
TIME to return to THE TRUE pattern given us by CHRIST and the apostels .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
I Keep it real simple . SO how bout it churches . WHERE is this so called love you cliam to have
for the people . WHEN so many sit in your churches who embrace certain sins
and now over seventy percent of christains , CHRISTAINS MIND YA , believe GOD is fine with all religoins .
WHERE IS YOUR LOVE NOW CHURCHES . WHERE IS IT . cause The path these people are on
ends with the second death . WHERE IS YOUR LOVE NOW . exactly . KEEP IT SIMPLE .
for the people . WHEN so many sit in your churches who embrace certain sins
and now over seventy percent of christains , CHRISTAINS MIND YA , believe GOD is fine with all religoins .
WHERE IS YOUR LOVE NOW CHURCHES . WHERE IS IT . cause The path these people are on
ends with the second death . WHERE IS YOUR LOVE NOW . exactly . KEEP IT SIMPLE .
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Whether something is a triple negative or a triple positive, depends on whether one is folding or unfolding--which is the nature of revelations.
Likewise (which I already said) just as "to say that no image is WHO the Being the image is of" is true, so is it also true that an "image" of One, is an image of no other, but only an image.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
This is a misunderstanding. Understandably.
The situation rather is--as an "image" of God, Jesus being out of character (so to speak) with Himself as God, spoke of these matters as if He were both actor and producer.
Do understand--these things are all rightly part of and the nature of what we should as much as expect of anything called 'creation"...even movies or plays made by men, let alone what is made manifest by the miracles of God.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Isn’t this what Paul said...?
Romans 10:13-15...
“For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” 14 However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? 15 How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
How did Jesus teach his disciples to preach his message, since no one will hear without someone to preach? (Matthew 10:11-14)
Do Christendom’s churches preach the way Jesus told them to? Don’t we have to ask why they don’t?
Ezekiel was shown that he had that responsibility too when he was sent to his errant nation to correct them.
Ezekiel 3:18-19...
“Son of man, I have appointed you as a watchman to the house of Israel; and when you hear a word from my mouth, you must warn them from me. 18 When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you.”
Can we see the problem? Who will be held accountable for not fulfilling their responsibility? Who told them it was somebody else’s job to take Christ’s message out to the people? (Acts 20:20)
Christians have a huge responsibility to use God’s word to do what it is supposed to do...
2 Timothy 3:16-17...
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.”
The problem, as I see it, is that too many people want the Bible to say what it clearly doesn’t. They will read into scripture things that were never written....they then follow what they want to, and ignore the rest.
There is a reason why “the road to life” is “cramped” and the entry way “narrow”....and why “few” are traveling it. (Matthew 7:13-14)
The true Christian course is not for the faint hearted. It requires the same courage to be “different” as was required of the first Christians in separating from the corrupted Jewish system. We are once again facing the same situation....we have to separate from a corrupt religious system that clearly does not have God’s backing. If it did, then all would speak in agreement. (1 Cor 1:10)
There are “wheat and weeds” in the world as Jesus said there would be.....and it’s the “wheat” who are taking their responsibility seriously.
Who are they?
I think we agree on this one. Either you got the spirit or you don't. You will need your spirit card to get in heaven because no flesh cards can be there. It's not even set up for the flesh. Yeah and the only way you get spirit is to be born again of God's spirit. I probably should mention that. We are not born with spirit. We are born with a body and soul. And spirit is not soul. Did I say all that correct?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Can I ask why you think that people in general believe that all Christians must be “born again” and that heaven is their only destination? Was heaven ever offered to Adam as a destination for him when he died?
What will people do in heaven, and why is there a general consensus that God ever intended anyone to go to heaven in the first place? What gives them this idea? I guess I am asking why you believe that we were put on this earth at the outset? What was our purpose here?
If there is a difference between the soul and the spirit, what do you believe is the difference?
What does it mean that Jesus is the firstborn of creation?
"Firstborn of all creation" means that Jesus is the one who is preeminent, the most important. It does not mean "first created" or anything of that sort.
carm.org
A proper understanding of what the first born of all creation means. And Christ the Word was not created as He is God. Jesus though born as a man was created in the image of the invisible God, Christ born as a man is visibly God, because well, He took on flesh and blood and was found as a man.
See we have a hypostatic union so that HE the WORD as Christ could be the savior of mankind as He is God in the flesh.
Hypostatic union - Wikipedia
Colossians 1
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [c]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He (THE SON) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him (THE SON) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him (THE SON) and for Him. 17 And He (THE SON) is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He (THE SON) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
RR144
Well-Known Member
That's right, the Nation of Israel. So why do you apply that verse to your group?
Hebrews 10
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 2,
Christ born as a man was created by God, that is the man part of himself. And only with such a union could He be the savior and die for your sins.
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [d]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
[e]And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [f]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:
“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 2,
Christ born as a man was created by God, that is the man part of himself. And only with such a union could He be the savior and die for your sins.
5 For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels. 6 But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
7 You have made him [d]a little lower than the angels;
You have crowned him with glory and honor,
[e]And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.”
For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made [f]a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not [h]give aid to angels, but He does [i]give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being [j]tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
OK...lets see....verse by verse....
Lets just examine the words carefully in light of their original language meaning.....not the connotations put on them by biased translators who had their own appropriated doctrines to push well after the death of Jesus and the apostles, when the scriptures were translated into English......
"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,"
Is this what Jesus really said?
Here is how the Mounce Interlinear renders that verse...
"who hos, although he was hyparchō in en the form morphē of God theos, did hēgeomai not ou regard hēgeomai equality isos with God theos a thing to be eimi grasped harpagmos."
So Jesus was in the "form of God"....what form does God have? John tells us that "God is a spirit"...(John 4:24)...so Jesus also had "spirit" form before his earthly mission.
And the next part says the complete opposite of what you chosen translation says....he did not think equality with God was a thing to be grasped"....
So there it is...your first mistake because of a flawed translation. Jesus NEVER sought equality with his God at all.
It goes on...
"And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross."
To whom is the Creator of all things "obedient"?
And where will I find the word "cross" in any Greek translation of the Bible?
Mounce....
"he humbled tapeinoō himself heautou, becoming ginomai obedient hypēkoos to the point mechri of death thanatos, even de death thanatos on a cross stauros!"
Look up the Greek word "stauros" and see that it never means a cross.....it means an upright stake as Strongs again gives its primary meaning as...
"1. an upright stake, especially a pointed one (Homer, Herodotus, Thucydides, Xenophon)."
The Romans had various configurations of their instruments of torture, so no one really know which one was use to put our Lord to death.
Besides which fact that the instrument used to put our Lord to death is hardly something to cherish. It was his death that made salvation possible, not the thing used to kill him.
"Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name".
How is it possible for God to give himself a name that is above the one he already has as "the Most High over all the earth" (Psalm 83:18)
"that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth"
What does it mean that "every knee should bow"?
"κάμπτω kámptō, kamp'-to; apparently a primary verb; to bend:—bow." (Strongs)
Is this worship? Not necessarily because the words there convey rendering honor to Christ....it is what is said next that clarifies what that means....
"and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Who is to receive the glory for the successful mission of the Christ......not the son, but the Father.
Confessing that "Jesus is Lord" is not saying that "Jesus is God" because "Lord" is a mere title of respect, not the name of God.
Slaves addressed their masters as "Lord".
You guys read right over what is right in front of you, because apparently you just don't want to admit that you could be horribly wrong about theses things that have been fed to you for centuries by an apostate "church".
You don't see that "the church" has indoctrinated all its flocks from early times, and that what you have been led to believe is what was already contrived from way back....Jesus told us it was going to happen......it is old lies that you have been fed, and you really don't want anyone to point them out to you....it might mean that you have to change your opinion....and we all know that is one of the hardest things to do when the majority want to believe what they have always believed...."don't upset the apple cart!"
You have to become a salmon swimming upstream if you want to be a true Christian. Its a 'cramped and narrow road' for a reason....."few" will even find their way onto it, let alone sticking out the difficult journey. If your journey is an easy one, then, you are on the wrong road...
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Again...just read what it says....
Who prepared the body that Christ gave for mankind? His God and Father did.
How can Christ say he has come to fulfill scripture and then say he has "come to do your will O God" Who then is the God of Jesus Christ, whose will he carried out instead of his own?
The offering of the body of Christ was the ransom paid for Adam's sin. Christ did not need to be God to offer that life, and it would not have been possible anyway because an immortal God cannot die. All Jesus needed to be was a sinless human and God provided that body for Jesus to offer on our behalf. Jesus was his Father's "holy servant"...his "anointed" one. (Acts 4:27)
Where is this a proof text for what you assert?
Who made Jesus "a little lower than the angels"? His God and Father.
Who "crowned him with glory"? His God and Father.
Who "put all things under his feet"? His God and Father.
Who made Jesus a "High Priest"? His God and Father.
Can a priest serve a God who is himself God?
What nonsense!
You do not read scripture as it is written....you have a 'filter' of your own, manufactured long ago, and yet it is invisible to you....
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Because that is what we are, and who we are....."witnesses" for the true God, Jehovah. He has always had his witnesses appointed to represent his interests on earth, but due to the flawed character of sinful men, they have not always represented him well.
Paul wrote by way of admonition to his brothers in Christ...members of a "great cloud of witnesses"....all running the same race...
"So, then, because we have such a great cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also throw off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such hostile speech from sinners against their own interests, so that you may not get tired and give up." (Hebrews 12:1-2)
Heaven or a new Earth... either way you will need a spiritual body to get there. And there is nothing in the Bible that says the spirit of God has anything to do with animals who are both body and soul.
RR144
Well-Known Member
Jane, the issue I have is that NOWHERE in Scripture does it say that Christians are Witnesses of Jehovah. The fact is Jesus said in Acts 1:8 we were to be His Witnesses.
Can I add to that it's the holy spirit that they just received in Acts 1:8 for the first time and that would be the witnesses for Jesus Christ?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Lets examine this too.....
What was the "covenant" (legally binding agreement) that Christ made with his apostles on the night before he died?
When he handed to them the cup of wine to pass from one to another and to drink from, he said: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf.” (Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25) So, here we have the mention of this covenant. Jesus Christ called it a new covenant. It was a new one, in contrast with an old covenant that was to pass away. It is possible and likely that the eleven men who drank from the cup of wine remembered the ancient prophecy of how God would make a new covenant with his chosen people. (Jer 31:31-34) When God entered into that earlier covenant with his people at Mount Sinai, he used the prophet Moses as his mediator.
The Jews as a people, down to this day still believe that they are under the old covenant....but it has been obsolete for almost 2,000 years.
When Jesus Christ set up the Lord’s Supper, only his apostles were offered the cup of wine, saying: “Drink out of it, all of you; for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins.” Those apostles were all Jews. They accepted this invitation into the new covenant that was to be put in force over the sacrifice and blood of Jesus Christ....the mediator of the new covenant. But what about the Jewish nation as a whole? Were they taken into the new covenant? According to history, only a "remnant" of them did so. “All the house of Israel,” were offered the privilege of coming into the new covenant arrangement....and the opportunity was offered first to them to do so, but because they had to accept Jesus was Messiah, they rejected it. Out of millions of Jews back there, only some thousands accepted the shed blood of Jesus as the “blood of the covenant” and were taken into the new covenant. Gentiles were brought in later to make up the numbers. (Roman 2:28-29; Romans 9:4-8)
Like all covenants, there were parties to the agreement and beneficiaries. From the day of Pentecost onward, God has poured out his spirit upon believers and they have become his 'adopted' spiritual children, spiritual Israelites or Jews....whether natural Jews or Gentiles, these were brought into the new covenant as spiritual Jews, spiritual Israelites...."the Israel of God". (Galatians 6:16) Natural Israel was cast off as the serial covenant breakers that they had always proven to be. (Matthew 23:37-39)
The apostles with whom Christ shared this last Passover supper, formed the very foundation stones of God's heavenly Kingdom. But not all Christians are parties to the new covenant. God's elect were chosen first.
Commenting on the difference between them and the natural, circumcised Jews (who rejected the Lord Jesus Christ) the apostle Peter says: “To this very end they were also appointed. But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the One that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. For you were once not a people, but are now God’s people; you were those who had not been shown mercy, but are now those who have been shown mercy.” (1 Peter 2:8-10)
In fleshly Israel, not all were qualified to be priests......only those from the tribe of Levi could be priests, to facilitate the worship of their God under his instructions for the whole nation. A High Priest was appointed to lead the nation in worship. He had authority over the other priests.
Jesus is our High Priest (Hebrews 3:1) and he has assisting him under priests who will carry out the work assigned to them. This is, we believe, the model that was set for the ones who were taken into the "new covenant"....they would assist Jesus in the administration of his Father's Kingdom, acting as priests and rulers, bringing mankind back into reconciliation with the God from whom they were alienated by their forefather, Adam. (Revelation 20:6) It is the means by which God brings us back to his first purpose in Eden. (Revelation 21:2-4)
Let me point out one verse here....1 Timothy 2:5....
"For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus".
Please tell me how it is possible for God to act as his own mediator......if we have a mediator appointed with regard to a dispute between two parties, the mediator cannot be one of the parties....the mediator acts as a "go between". How then can Jesus be God?
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Also to @Peterlag, please read Revelation 3:14....
"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."
Who is the Faithful Witness here?...the one said to be "the beginning of God's creation"? It is Jesus speaking about himself.
For whom was Jesus a "witness"?
If Jesus was a "witness" for his Father, then his disciples must also be.......because it is the Father's will that must "be done on earth as it is in heaven". One cannot be a witness of Jesus without also declaring the reasons why he came into the world....and who sent him? (John 17:3)
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