Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Robert Gwin]

Here is one,
Jesus is mediator for the 144,000 alone.

"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11

"The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31

Scripture though says all believers are members of the new covenant established in Christ's blood, as they are saved by believing, not just 144,000 are members of the New Covenant. If you are outside that covenant, you are not saved, meaning you will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire at the end of the age.

Hebrews 12:24
to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Hebrews 9
14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [a]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.’

Acts 16:31
So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Romans 10:9
that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

I disagree with you that all Christians are in that covenant relationship with God Scott. Why? One has to simply read who he made the covenant with, and why. Remember there were millions of God's people there when Jesus made that covenant, and he only did it with his faithful 11 apostles. Only 144k are in that covenant relationship, bought out from among mankind to serve as Kings and Priests under King Jesus in the coming Kingdom of God on earth, however their residence is in heaven.

You are very correct that Jesus is the mediator between all humans and God, no one else is! Every single individual that prays approaches God in Jesus' name, if they do it correctly anyway. I hope you understand that calling on the name of the Lord, is referring to God not Jesus, it was quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures at Joel 2:32. I hope you further understand that more than belief in Jesus is required for salvation. It would be nice if Romans 10:9 was the only verse in the Bible, but unfortunately there is much more involved for salvation Scott.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You are leaning on your own understanding.

Even in that understanding, if you yourself "created" an image of yourself--who is it?

To the contrary, what you have presented and would seem to believe for you state it as if it were fact (when it is not), you have taken that very simple matter of an image of God being God by image--and "what God has joined together"--you have separated.

This one thing should bring change to much of what you have believed.

If the Bible says it Scott, I believe it sir, and posted it for you to see for yourself. You made a Great statement which can apply to the subject as well for understanding, Jesus' words concerning a wife, the two become one flesh, of course we know they are separate beings, as are Jehovah and Jesus, but how do they become one? They are in unity! Acting in harmony with each other, agreeable in all things. That is why Jesus presented himself and his disciples in that way in prayer to Jehovah Jn 17:20-22

 

[Peterlag]

What doest thou see Pete?

I don't see the flesh. I see this... www.carb-fat.com/spirit.html

 

[Peterlag]

The title "Lord" (Greek, Kurious) as Kittel's observes, means "one who has full authority." In the Old Testament, God alone had "full authority" and filled both functions of Creator (Elohim) and Lord (Jehovah). Jehovah is used in connection with men with whom He has entered into some kind of covenant, starting with Adam in Genesis 2:7, and including Israel. Several redemptive characteristics and divine functions are associated with the sacred name Jehovah (Yahweh), including giving righteousness (Jeremiah 23:6), healing (Exodus 15:26), sanctification (Exodus 31:13), providing (Genesis 22:14), protection from enemies (Exodus 17:15), giving peace (Judges 6:24), and being continually present (Ezekiel 48:35). These functions can be assumed and/or delegated by persons having the authority. God has delegated many, if not all of these divine functions to Jesus Christ to share in as "Lord."

 

[Robert Gwin]

That's all handy in literature, but you have missed the point--mine (and God's apparently).

It doesn't matter if it is poor english, or good or bad english. The point is God created an image of Himself in creating man--which is an act of revelation...not revealing "what" but "who"--that is, revealing God Himself.

Applying that to my point...my comment was to point out that even though God gave Christ a name, the Son of Man is not another person, but rather the perfect "image" of God made manifest to the world. Therefore, as it pertains to my answer to @Robert Gwin, it is wrong to say that Jesus is not God, any more than a picture of you or I is not us, even if it is only and "image" of us. The context being: "Who."

Now that I agree with Scott, Jesus is the perfect "image" of Jehovah, not Jehovah Himself, but exactly like Him. A chip of the old block as they say sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

That's right, the Nation of Israel. So why do you apply that verse to your group?

God still has witnesses sir. That is simply a common sense answer I believe, just as He had witnesses then, it didn't stop, He obviously has witnesses today, correct? If He doesn't have witnesses how will Mat 24:14 be fulfilled? Doesn't that prophecy take us clear into the end of this system Be?

 

[Scott Downey]

I disagree with you that all Christians are in that covenant relationship with God Scott. Why? One has to simply read who he made the covenant with, and why. Remember there were millions of God's people there when Jesus made that covenant, and he only did it with his faithful 11 apostles. Only 144k are in that covenant relationship, bought out from among mankind to serve as Kings and Priests under King Jesus in the coming Kingdom of God on earth, however their residence is in heaven.

You are very correct that Jesus is the mediator between all humans and God, no one else is! Every single individual that prays approaches God in Jesus' name, if they do it correctly anyway. I hope you understand that calling on the name of the Lord, is referring to God not Jesus, it was quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures at Joel 2:32. I hope you further understand that more than belief in Jesus is required for salvation. It would be nice if Romans 10:9 was the only verse in the Bible, but unfortunately there is much more involved for salvation Scott.

There are more than 144,000 saved people in heaven.
And Christ was their mediator between God and man, you also say nothing about the JW doctrine I posted that shows you do not agree with your own doctrinal publications on the mediator and who is a member of the New Covenant. You do not seem to be well educated on your sects' own doctrines.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 persons since the time of Jesus can ever go to heaven, there to be co-rulers with Christ Jesus over the inhabitants of a paradise earth. They also believe that the soul dies when the body dies and must wait until the resurrection before Jehovah “remembers” the personality of the deceased and matches it to a new, physical body. Those who are part of the 144,000 will be given spiritual bodies, but everyone else will be given a fleshly body.

The 144,000 are first mentioned in Revelation 7:4: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.” Whereas the Witnesses take the number 144,000 to be literal, they say the description of their being male Jewish virgins (Revelation 14:4) is symbolic. Revelation 7:5–8 presents the 144,000 as being from the twelve tribes of Israel—12,000 from each tribe. The reference to the tribes of Israel is also taken as symbolic, not literal. They believe that the “anointed remnant” of the 144,000 has replaced Israel and that they are “spiritual Jews.” Further, Revelation speaks of a great crowd in heaven that no man could number (Revelation 7:9), but Jehovah’s Witnesses say only the 144,000 can be in heaven. The great crowd, they say, are on the earth.

What do the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe about the 144,000 and a heavenly/earthly hope? | GotQuestions.org

What do the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe about the 144,000? What do the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe about a heavenly/earthly hope?

www.gotquestions.org

It just is not worth pointing out to JW their own doctrines errors, if they do not acknowledge those JW doctrines at all, like is happening in this thread. Like saying more than 144,000 also have their residence in heaven.

MAYBE within the JW groups are people uneducated about real JW doctrines. As obviously they do not agree with JW doctrines.
Probably just ignorant. Either that or deliberately deceptive about what JW doctrines say.

 

[Scott Downey]

JW's have no savior.
To them, all Jesus Christ was is a man.
To deny who Jesus is to deny the Lord God who sent Jesus, and Jesus tells us where he came from, and it was not from the earth below.

Luke 10:16
He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.”

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

 

[Scott Downey]

I disagree with you that all Christians are in that covenant relationship with God Scott. Why? One has to simply read who he made the covenant with, and why. Remember there were millions of God's people there when Jesus made that covenant, and he only did it with his faithful 11 apostles. Only 144k are in that covenant relationship, bought out from among mankind to serve as Kings and Priests under King Jesus in the coming Kingdom of God on earth, however their residence is in heaven.

You are very correct that Jesus is the mediator between all humans and God, no one else is! Every single individual that prays approaches God in Jesus' name, if they do it correctly anyway. I hope you understand that calling on the name of the Lord, is referring to God not Jesus, it was quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures at Joel 2:32. I hope you further understand that more than belief in Jesus is required for salvation. It would be nice if Romans 10:9 was the only verse in the Bible, but unfortunately there is much more involved for salvation Scott.

The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is only Mediator for the 144,000

The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is only Mediator for the 144,000, not the Great Crowd of Jehovah's Witnesses or people of 'the world'

jwfacts.com

According to your own sect's doctrine, Jesus is the mediator of the 144,000 only. I suggest you read this and modify your response to me.
Anyone interested in reading this thread for evidence will also see this, that you are lying by what you said to me.

 

[Peterlag]

There are more than 144,000 saved people in heaven.
And Christ was their mediator between God and man, you also say nothing about the JW doctrine I posted that shows you do not agree with your own doctrinal publications on the mediator and who is a member of the New Covenant. You do not seem to be well educated on your sects' own doctrines.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

You guys need to spend more time in the Epistles that pertain to Christians and not in the book of Revelation that pertains to Israel that is written in parables with old oriental customs that I doubt any of us are aware of.

 

[ScottA]

If the Bible says it Scott, I believe it sir, and posted it for you to see for yourself. You made a Great statement which can apply to the subject as well for understanding, Jesus' words concerning a wife, the two become one flesh, of course we know they are separate beings, as are Jehovah and Jesus, but how do they become one? They are in unity! Acting in harmony with each other, agreeable in all things. That is why Jesus presented himself and his disciples in that way in prayer to Jehovah Jn 17:20-22

That is certainly the way that men have perceived the Oneness of God to be, but it is not so with God according to the ways of men, but rather to the way of God whom has not yet been fully known--except that I have told you of it repeating the scriptures in a way that you have not considered.

But since you do not believe me, believe rather what is written: That the Oneness that Christ prayed that we might be part of, He explained, saying, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." Which does not say they are two people in unity, but One. The end of which is God all in all, and all in Christ in God...just as it is also written.

 

[Scott Downey]

You guys need to spend more time in the Epistles that pertain to Christians and not in the book of Revelation that pertains to Israel that is written in parables with old oriental customs that I doubt any of us are aware of.

You also strangely deny your own JW doctrines.

 

[ScottA]

Now that I agree with Scott, Jesus is the perfect "image" of Jehovah, not Jehovah Himself, but exactly like Him. A chip of the old block as they say sir.

By that same logic then (which I have used to appeal to your reasonability) a great image or picture of you would be what--a clone?

That was a rhetorical question, no need to answer. The answer is clear, and I have been clear in stating the error of considering the "image" that God has "created" in all men including the Son of Man, is actually a separate person. Believe rather that the Father and the Son being One, actually means One, just as it is written.

 

[Wrangler]

The phrase “firstborn of all creation” is not dealing with time, but status and position. It does not mean that Jesus is the first created thing.

Rationalization. Of course firstborn of all creation means first created thing. Simple words, plainly spoken. To suppose otherwise is to suppose God is speaking in riddles, in violation of Mark 7:13 and 2 Cor 1:13 (VOICE) We are not writing to you in anything resembling codes or riddles.

This is consistent with any son being created by his father. It doesn't make him his father, who alone is God. Do you suppose 1 COR 8:6 has some kind of rationalized meaning? 'For us, there is one God, the Father.'

What make you of Hebrews 1:2 God promised everything to the Son as an inheritance; if Jesus is God, who is this son who is promised everything? Going along nicely with Romans 8:17 And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. I look forward to your thoughtful rejoinder.

 

[Peterlag]

You also strangely deny your own JW doctrines.

Are you saying if people believe Jesus is the son of God that it makes us a follower of JW?

 

[Scott Downey]

Are you saying if people believe Jesus is the son of God that it makes us a follower of JW?

You do not believe in the Son of God, you believe in an imagined mental construct of Christ, in clear opposition of what scripture says about Him. Actually the dialog here is not for your benefit as you hardened fast in this cult. I have read the JW's believe if they are disfellowshipped by leaving the group, Jehovah will burn them alive in the fire. I wonder what that says regarding your beliefs about other church groups

 

[Peterlag]

You do not believe in the Son of God, you believe in an imagined mental construct of Christ, in clear opposition of what scripture says about Him. Actually the dialog here is not for your benefit as you hardened fast in this cult. I have read the JW's believe if they are disfellowshipped by leaving the group, Jehovah will burn them alive in the fire. I wonder what that says regarding your beliefs about other church groups

Would I frustrate you just a little if I told you I have no group? So I don't know what groups believe. I'm with those who believe the spirit is seed and that it's born in and so one cannot lose it. Same idea with your birth rights from your parents. You can't get their seed out of you and stop being their kid. Bad kid, good kid... does not matter. You're still God's kid if you have the spirit. The joy of walking in a relationship with your parents is a cool thing. I have the joy of walking in fellowship with God and His son Jesus Christ. I even wrote it down about what walking in the spirit is... www.carb-fat.com/spirit.html

 

[Aunty Jane]

There are more than 144,000 saved people in heaven.
And Christ was their mediator between God and man, you also say nothing about the JW doctrine I posted that shows you do not agree with your own doctrinal publications on the mediator and who is a member of the New Covenant. You do not seem to be well educated on your sects' own doctrines.

O, I just love the armchair experts....

Tell me where God promised heaven to any of the faithful OT servants of God, including the most prominent ones such as Abraham, Moses or Elijah? No such offer was ever made to them, for the simple reason that “no one went to heaven” before Jesus opened the way with his own resurrection. (John 3:13) He was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18)....the very first human to attain a spiritual resurrection.

The covenant that Jesus instituted with his 11 faithful apostles at his last Passover observance, was "for a kingdom", (Luke 22:28-30) so that those taken into that covenant would become rulers and priests in his kingdom (as Israel were promised originally, but failed to live up to God’s requirements of them). So “God turned his attention to the nations to take out of them, a people for his name”. (Acts 10:34-35)
Gentiles were added to make up the numbers of those who were chosen for this specific role. (Revelation 20:6) Since these are both 'kings and priests', (as Jesus is) there has to be those who are their subjects....and there has to be sinners for whom to perform their duties as priests. Kings do not rule one another, and there are no sinners in heaven.

The scripture you quoted is talking about the ones who will be their subjects, here on earth.

I will address that scripture in Revelation 7, in detail in the next post....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Let’s have another look at those verses in Revelation and highlight what you missed.....or chose to ignore.

Revelation 7:2-4....
“And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrise, having a seal of the living God; and he called with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel”.

This is not fleshly Israel but “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) made up of those chosen from the earth to rule with Christ in his Kingdom. The time period described is “the time of the end” where John was transported into the future in his vision....to ”the Lord’s day”...the time we are living in right now.

This is talking about spiritual Israel, made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who prove faithful to God as disciples of his Christ, “unto death”. The “sealing” they receive is a token in advance of their “heavenly calling” (Hebrews 3:1)

Revelation 14 adds further details...
“Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 I heard a sound coming out of heaven like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was like singers who accompany themselves by playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no deceit was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.”

Again we see the specific number chosen, and that they are “firstfruits” bought from the earth, and located on a heavenly mountain (Mount Zion is where God’s physical temple was located).....but this is now a spiritual temple in heaven where Christ returned to “prepare a place” for his elect.

As “firstfruits” of the resurrection, it means that another “crop” was to be expected.....”the great crowd”, who will dwell on earth as their subjects....if you go back to the very beginning of man’s history you will see that God put humans on earth for a reason....that purpose has gone unfulfilled because of a rebellion that was caused by satan.....but God’s purpose can never go unfulfilled. (Isaiah 55:11) The kingdom establish by God, upon the basis of Christ’s ransom, will see all things return to what God purposed at the beginning.

Now, back to Revelation 7:9-10....
“After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

So after John saw the specifically numbered group of 144,00 standing in a heavenly place with Jesus, he sees another separate group of unspecified number, standing before the throne of God and attributing salvation to God and the Lamb. All have achieved salvation through their faithful course, thanks to the blood of their king and redeemer, offered in their behalf.

So John wanted to know who they were.....
“In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

What do we see there? This second group are said to have “come out of the great tribulation” which occurs on earth as the final part of the “last days” of this current world system. They are the survivors of that global calamity who will be ‘shepherded’ by the ones chosen by God to act as their rulers and priests.

The final sentence there is backed up by Revelation 21:2-4....
“I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

“The tent of God” is “the holy city New Jerusalem”, “spread” over “mankind” on earth. And having cleansed the earth of all wickedness, no more will there be anything to cause pain or suffering, because “the former things have passed away”.

If you are going to quote scripture, please do not cherry pick verses to support you errors.

Like the book of Daniel, the things in Revelation can only be understood in the present era....but as Daniel said, not everyone will be granted that 'insight or understanding'. (Daniel 12:9-10)