Are Jehovah's witnesses real Christians?

[Aunty Jane]

You do not believe in the Son of God, you believe in an imagined mental construct of Christ, in clear opposition of what scripture says about Him. Actually the dialog here is not for your benefit as you hardened fast in this cult. I have read the JW's believe if they are disfellowshipped by leaving the group, Jehovah will burn them alive in the fire. I wonder what that says regarding your beliefs about other church groups

Oh good grief! where do you get this stuff???? Does it ever occur to you to ask the people you defame if any of that is true?
Do you judge everyone by what their opposers say about them? Do you understand what character assassination is and how it happens? Jesus himself was a victim. He told us to expect the same treatment. (John 15:18-21)

Not everyone who disagrees with Christendom's false doctrines are JW's.....are you surprised? @Peterlag has already stated that he is not a JW.

What did Jesus say of his true disciples....
“Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the Kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.
11 “Happy are you when people reproach you and persecute you and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against you for my sake. 12 Rejoice and be overjoyed, since your reward is great in the heavens, for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to you." (Matthew 5:11-12)

That being the case...JW's should be the happiest people on earth....

 

[Jim B]

O, I just love the armchair experts....

Tell me where God promised heaven to any of the faithful OT servants of God, including the most prominent ones such as Abraham, Moses or Elijah? No such offer was ever made to them, for the simple reason that “no one went to heaven” before Jesus opened the way with his own resurrection. (John 3:13) He was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18)....the very first human to attain a spiritual resurrection.

The covenant that Jesus instituted with his 11 faithful apostles at his last Passover observance, was "for a kingdom", (Luke 22:28-30) so that those taken into that covenant would become rulers and priests in his kingdom (as Israel were promised originally, but failed to live up to God’s requirements of them). So “God turned his attention to the nations to take out of them, a people for his name”. (Acts 10:34-35)
Gentiles were added to make up the numbers of those who were chosen for this specific role. (Revelation 20:6) Since these are both 'kings and priests', (as Jesus is) there has to be those who are their subjects....and there has to be sinners for whom to perform their duties as priests. Kings do not rule one another, and there are no sinners in heaven.

The scripture you quoted is talking about the ones who will be their subjects, here on earth.

I will address that scripture in Revelation 7, in detail in the next post....

How do you explain the transfiguration? "Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling bright, such as no one on earth could brighten them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus." Mark 9:2-4 Where did they come from?

"I tell you, many will come from east and west and will take their places at the banquet with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 8:11

"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead but of the living.” Matthew 22:31-32

"He said to them, “How is it then that David by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying,

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet” ’?
“If David thus calls him Lord, how can he be his son?” Matthew 22:43-45

So your writing: Tell me where God promised heaven to any of the faithful OT servants of God, including the most prominent ones such as Abraham, Moses or Elijah? No such offer was ever made to them, for the simple reason that “no one went to heaven” before Jesus opened the way with his own resurrection" is clearly wrong.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Would I frustrate you just a little if I told you I have no group? So I don't know what groups believe.

Peterlag, are you aware that no Christian can be without a brotherhood with whom he is personally acquainted, and with whom he regularly meets for worship...? (1 Cor 1:10; Hebrews 10:24-25) We need the company of fellow believers because this is the way Jesus taught us to be. We are not an estranged family, but a close-knit one.....we know each other, and we all know our Father intimately. We all believe the same truths, no matter where we live in this world.

I'm with those who believe the spirit is seed and that it's born in and so one cannot lose it. Same idea with your birth rights from your parents. You can't get their seed out of you and stop being their kid. Bad kid, good kid... does not matter. You're still God's kid if you have the spirit. The joy of walking in a relationship with your parents is a cool thing. I have the joy of walking in fellowship with God and His son Jesus Christ. I even wrote it down about what walking in the spirit is... www.carb-fat.com/spirit.html

That is a nice thought...but it is not what scripture teaches.
We are deep into "the time of the end" and these last days were to be "difficult times"...but the word rendered "difficult" does not do the Greek word justice....
"chalepos"...means.....

1. hard to do, to take, to approach
2. hard to bear, troublesome, dangerous
   
   1. harsh, fierce, savage" (Strongs)

So tbh, looking at the kinds of things that we are dealing with in this increasingly godless world, we need the support of our dear brothers and sisters.....and they need ours. How is that achieved if we have no brotherhood with whom we interact? We are supposed to care for one another and our shepherds were placed in positions of service so that the needs of those in the congregation were met. In order for those needs to be met, the shepherds have to know their sheep. Who are your shepherds? Who are your brothers and sisters?

Paul said that the reasons why these "last days" are so hard to deal with is because....."people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people."

It is getting harder and harder to "avoid such people"......even those who have "the appearance of godliness', deny its power.....so, what power is that? It is the power to remove hatred from our hearts even for our enemies. (Matthew 5:43-44) Its the power to BE a Christian when everyone around your is only pretending to be, not fulfilling their obligations to God, and making excuses for why they don't.

There are no "lone rangers" in Christianity....

 

[Aunty Jane]

How do you explain the transfiguration? "Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling bright, such as no one on earth could brighten them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus." Mark 9:2-4

The transfiguration was the fulfillment of a promise that Jesus made to some of his apostles....(Luke 9:27)
"But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God."
Peter, James and John saw Jesus in his glorified state.....as the King of God's Kingdom....it was a foregleam of what was to come.

He also said....
"As they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.”
It was a "vision" that they saw and it was prophetic. Represented was the three basic elements of the Kingdom to come....its king (Jesus) the Law (represented by Moses) and the prophets (represented by Elijah). These three made up all of what the Bible teaches about God's Kingdom.

I have yet to hear anyone in Christendom tell me exactly what God's Kingdom is, and what it is going to do for mankind. This is the basis for the message we are to preach, (Matthew 24:14) yet no one knows what it is, or can explain it coherently. Is that why none of the churches are preaching about the kingdom "in all the inhabited earth", as we were instructed to do?

Where did they come from?

"I tell you, many will come from east and west and will take their places at the banquet with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 8:11

We need to ask a very important question...."How can Matthew 8:11 , which speaks of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens, be harmonized with Matthew 11:11, which indicates that not even John the Baptist will be there in heaven"?

Hebrews 11:17-19...."By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac . . . But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.”

How did Abraham expect to receive Isaac back from the dead? In heaven as a spirit? Or did Abraham expect his son to experience a physical resurrection from the dead, as all Jews believed? Like Lazarus, when Jesus raised him out of his tomb...he would be given back his earthly life.
No one went to heaven before Jesus as John 3:13 plainly states, and so John the Baptist died before Jesus opened the way to heaven for his anointed followers to join him where he was going to "prepare a place for them".
John B will not be part of the heavenly kingdom, but that doesn't mean that he wont have a meaningful part to play in the earthly coutyards of Jehovah's spiritual temple....as will all the faithful ones of old.

At Matthew 11:11 Jesus says plainly..."Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is."

King David also is mentioned as one who did not go to heaven....yet this was a man "agreeable to Jehovah's heart". (Acts 2:34-36; Acts 13:22)

"And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is God not of the dead but of the living.” Matthew 22:31-32

Luke 20:37-38..."But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. 38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.”

If the dead are to be resurrected, as all Jews believed, then when was such a resurrection to take place? If no one went to heaven before Jesus, then no one who died before him went anywhere, because the Jews were never taught about an immortal soul....that notion was picked up later from platonic Greek ideas.
The resurrection was not to take place until Christ's return....all were to "sleep" peacefully in their graves until the time for the Kingdom to establish its rulership over the earth. (1 Thess 4:13-17) Not even the elect were to awaken before then.

The resurrection was to take place in a certain order.....those who were invited to become "heirs with Christ" in his kingdom were to be resurrected "first" (Revelation 20:6) The ones whom Jesus said he was going to call from their tombs would come after that, in a general resurrection of all the dead. (John 5:28-29)

So, saying that those in their tombs are "living" is not in the literal sense, because that would contradict so many other verses in the Bible.
They are "living to him" in that they simply await the time for him to restore their lives....as easily as waking them from sleep as Jesus did Lazarus. (John 11:11-14) The faithful ones of old looked forward to that.

"He said to them, “How is it then that David by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying,

‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I put your enemies under your feet” ’?
“If David thus calls him Lord, how can he be his son?” Matthew 22:43-45

I'm not sure why this scripture is even offered...?
Who is David calling his "Lord".....since there are two "Lords" mentioned there?
The original verse in Hebrew reads...
"Jehovah said to my Lord....." so David was speaking about Jehovah identifying his Lord as the Messiah, and saying that he was to sit at his Father's right hand until certain things on earth were accomplished.....the putting of Christ's enemies "under his feet".

You pull verses out of the air with no knowledge of what they even mean. This is why we need to study the Bible, but under the guidance of those appointed by Christ to "feed his sheep". The disunity of Christendom is proof that God does not feed any of them. (Matthew 24:45)

So your writing: Tell me where God promised heaven to any of the faithful OT servants of God, including the most prominent ones such as Abraham, Moses or Elijah? No such offer was ever made to them, for the simple reason that “no one went to heaven” before Jesus opened the way with his own resurrection" is clearly wrong.

Sorry, but the Bible says it is clearly right.....you just have no idea what the scriptures as a whole teach.....OT/NT....there is no such thing....
"ALL scripture is inspired of God" and therefore "all scripture" has to be "beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."

You can tell immediately if people are plucking bits and pieces out of the air to support their errors. Nothing fits or makes a lick of sense. Christendom has no "big picture" and therefore cannot answer the hard questions with the simple truth.
You are so busy trying to prove us wrong, that you can't even see your own errors.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I don't see the flesh. I see this... www.carb-fat.com/spirit.html

All Christians are flesh Pete, even anointed ones. All of us put on the new personality, evolving from the works of the flesh, to more prominence of having the fruitages of the spirit. Gal 5:19-23

 

[Robert Gwin]

There are more than 144,000 saved people in heaven.
And Christ was their mediator between God and man, you also say nothing about the JW doctrine I posted that shows you do not agree with your own doctrinal publications on the mediator and who is a member of the New Covenant. You do not seem to be well educated on your sects' own doctrines.

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”

Verse 9 is contrasted with the itemized 144k that are redeemed from the earth Scott. They are the survivors that come out of the great tribulation, surviving the battle of Armageddon here on earth sir. Those of the 144k were previously "raptured as most people call it" at Jesus' return meeting him in the clouds 1 Thes 4:17

 

[Robert Gwin]

The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is only Mediator for the 144,000

The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is only Mediator for the 144,000, not the Great Crowd of Jehovah's Witnesses or people of 'the world'

jwfacts.com

According to your own sect's doctrine, Jesus is the mediator of the 144,000 only. I suggest you read this and modify your response to me.
Anyone interested in reading this thread for evidence will also see this, that you are lying by what you said to me.

Jesus is the mediator of the covenant Scott.
(Hebrews 8:6) . . .But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.
The covenant is only made with his bride:
(Luke 22:28-30) . . .you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; 29 and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel.
(Revelation 5:9, 10) . . .they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
(Revelation 14:3) . . .they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.

And as we discussed, Jesus is the mediator between God and all mankind sir:
(John 14:6) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
(1 Timothy 2:5, 6) . . .For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all. . .
Perhaps you are confusing the mediation of the covenant, and between God and man sir.

It might help if you take into account that when Jesus taught us to pray, that he was speaking to a very large crowd, not just his apostles. Later on he further expounded that we should pray to God in his name, why? Because he is the mediator between God and man, with man being all of God's people whether those in the covenant, or those of the other sheep. Mat 6:9; Jn 10:16

 

[-Phil]

Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

How many me’s are there?

 

[Robert Gwin]

By that same logic then (which I have used to appeal to your reasonability) a great image or picture of you would be what--a clone?

That was a rhetorical question, no need to answer. The answer is clear, and I have been clear in stating the error of considering the "image" that God has "created" in all men including the Son of Man, is actually a separate person. Believe rather that the Father and the Son being One, actually means One, just as it is written.

Jesus explained the oneness this way Scott:
(John 17:20-22) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

That simplifies it considerably sir.

 

[-Phil]

That simplifies it considerably sir.

Claiming one isn’t doesn’t simplify, it complicates & confuses unnecessarily.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

By Jesus' own words which I had posted before Jn 17:6,26. Why does your selected version not include God's name when Jesus stated it to his apostles and others? Since he stated he made God's name known, and yes your Bible states that, you do believe it correct?

Pay attention this time, I won't write the answer again! The reason why His name does not appear in any version, is because it does not appear in any of the extant manuscripts! If you have proof otherwise- show it. but the divine name is not in any of the NT manuscripts.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Fantastic Ron, have a great time sir, look forward to your return.

Back again for more intense discussions!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

God's name was first introduced to us at Gen 2:4. Moses penned that sir. You have been watching too many movies, the God portrayed as having no name, was well known among the descendants of Abraham. Of course your opinion will differ. You will probably use the account recorded in Ex 3 to prove your point, but remember when Moses penned the books he penned, it was done after their leaving Egypt.

That is correct. So when Gen. 2 was actually happening, the divine name was not known! God did not give His name until He told it to Moses. and I have come to the conclusion that it is actually not His name but just a simple declaration of who He is! When Moses asked, God said I am who I am! Tel them YH sent you. God is who He is!

 

[ScottA]

Jesus explained the oneness this way Scott:
(John 17:20-22) . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21 so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

That simplifies it considerably sir.

And yet you have stumbled upon it.

That explanation does not change the Oneness of God and His image. But rather explains how we too are to be included, not by remaining separate, but by our coming into Him and His coming into us. That is not where you left it, but it is where Jesus left it. Therefore I have told you the same thing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That explanation does not change the Oneness of God and His image. But rather explains how we too are to be included, not by remaining separate, but by our coming into Him and His coming into us. That is not where you left it, but it is where Jesus left it. Therefore I have told you the same thing.

The scripture provided explains that the “oneness” has to do with unity of belief and purpose....all of God’s worshippers need to be on ‘the same page’...to be fully aware of who God is....who Jesus is...and what it means to be “ONE” with them.

The one who is the “image” of his Father (Colossians 1:15) is not the same person as his Father, who is also his God. (John 20:17)
Even in heaven the resurrected Jesus still calls his Father “my God” (Revelation 3:12).....please explain how that is possible....does God worship himself?

 

[RR144]

God still has witnesses sir. That is simply a common sense answer I believe, just as He had witnesses then, it didn't stop, He obviously has witnesses today, correct? If He doesn't have witnesses how will Mat 24:14 be fulfilled? Doesn't that prophecy take us clear into the end of this system Be?

So, what you're saying is, you're guilty of replacement theology. Christians are to be Witnesses of Jesus, Acts 1:8

"But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come on you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” - Holman

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” - NKJV

"But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes upon you, and you will be witnesses of me in Jerusalem, in all Ju·deʹa and Sa·marʹi·a, and to the most distant part of the earth.” - NWT

 

[RR144]

Also to @Peterlag, please read Revelation 3:14....
"And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation."

Who is the Faithful Witness here?...the one said to be "the beginning of God's creation"? It is Jesus speaking about himself.
For whom was Jesus a "witness"?
If Jesus was a "witness" for his Father, then his disciples must also be.......because it is the Father's will that must "be done on earth as it is in heaven". One cannot be a witness of Jesus without also declaring the reasons why he came into the world....and who sent him? (John 17:3)

The Jews were Jehovah's Witnesses, that's who the Isaiah Scripture was attributed too. When Jesus was on earth, he came to bear witness to Jehovah. But he specifically stated to his disciples, "Ye shall be MY witnesses."

But as you say in your personal quote: "What I post is my opinion only. I love a good Bible discussion."

 

[RR144]

Can I add to that it's the holy spirit that they just received in Acts 1:8 for the first time and that would be the witnesses for Jesus Christ?

If you isolate the verse, I guess, but the context is Jesus speaking

 

[Peterlag]

If you isolate the verse, I guess, but the context is Jesus speaking

The context is the spirit that will be the witness.

 

[RR144]

The context is the spirit that will be the witness.

The burden of proof is where exactly my friend?