A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you for all these questions. However none of them are peretinent to why Jesus died for mankind.

On the contrary, all are very pertinent to why Jesus came to give his life for fallen humanity.
We need to understand the mechanics of why he came as a human child.

Jesus died to pay for mankinds sins. Period. As it is written: He became sin, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Again...what are the mechanics? How does his redemption work?

Jesus became our sin and God punished Him in our place. Then He conquered death in His own body when He physically rose from the dead. This and only this can save a person from eternal damnation.

I am repulsed by that notion. God did not “punish” his son in our place. He fulfilled his own law in sending a sinless man who was Adam’s equivalent, (the “last Adam”) to offer his life in exchange for ours. The mode of his death was dictated by the devil, who was behind the ones who orchestrated his execution. Their “father” made sure that there was as much suffering as possible inflicted on God’s son. We know from what God permitted In Job’s case, what the devil is capable of doing to God’s faithful servants, in order to break their integrity. Jesus was God’s servant....his anointed one. (Acts 4:27)

As for his resurrection, there was no physical resurrection because Jesus had to return to heaven and flesh cannot exist in an invisible realm serving an invisible God. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17)

Peter says that Christ was raised “in the spirit” not the “flesh” in which he died. (1 Peter 3:18)

 

[Aunty Jane]

This doesn’t explain why God would pick 12,000 from each tribe and name the tribes if this is only spiritual.

Seriously...that is all you have to ask in response to what was posted?.....sorry, but God has his own reasons for his choices...you need to take that up with him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Planet Earth was never designed to be a training ground for heaven.....in the beginning, there was never any mention of humans living anywhere but here in their mortal flesh....forever. You see, everlasting life on earth was what God offered humanity in the first instance....all they needed to do was obey their Creator and everlasting life with no sickness, suffering or death was guaranteed. This is not immortality, which, for humans, was never in the original plan.

And everyone in eternity who has trusted in the death, burial and PHYSICAL resurrection of Jesus for their sins will live on the new earth! Why? Because heaven comes down to earth, which is the habitation of the church- and it is not the made up number of 144,000, it is in teh untold millions.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Again...what are the mechanics? How does his redemption work?

He took our punishment- thus setting us free when we trust in His death and physical resurrection as the only price acceptable to see the kingdom (being born again).

On the contrary, all are very pertinent to why Jesus came to give his life for fallen humanity.
We need to understand the mechanics of why he came as a human child.

No they are irrelevant. All we need to know is that in and of ourselves we are unrighteous. we cannot save ourselves, and Gods so loved us, He sent His son to take our place of punishment.

What man will have to suffer in the eternity of time, Jesus suffered in the infinite depths of agony, so we wouldn't have to suffer.

I am repulsed by that notion. God did not “punish” his son in our place. He fulfilled his own law in sending a sinless man who was Adam’s equivalent, (the “last Adam”) was to offer his life in exchange for ours. The mode of his death was dictated by the devil, who was behind the ones who orchestrated his execution. Their “father” made sure that there was as much suffering as possible inflicted on God’s son. We know from what God permitted In Job’s case, what the devil is capable of doing to God’s faithful servants, in order to break their integrity. Jesus was God’s servant....his anointed one. (Acts 4:27)

I understand why you are pulsed, but it is absolutely 100% biblical!

Jesus and My Father were fully on control of the method Jesus would die! It was prophesied long before Jesus emptied Himself of His Godhood and became man.

The physical suffering is nothing compared to teh spiritual suffering Jesus underwent because of His love for us! You will never learn that from the Watchtower- for they fear that!

As for his resurrection, there was no physical resurrection because Jesus had to return to heaven and flesh cannot exist in an invisible realm serving an invisible God. (John 4:24; olossians 1:15; 1 Timothy 1:17)

Peter says that Christ was raised “in the spirit” not the “flesh” in which he died. (1 Peter 3:18)

And you like all other JW's choose to remain ignorant of the word resurrection and its meaning. it is a standing AGAIN! so that means what was laid down stood up! Jesus did not die as an invisible spirit creature but in the resurrection body as the first fruits of the resurrection. Even Jesus HImself said He would raise His body from the grave!

John 2:18-22

King James Version

​

18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Verse 19- Jesus said destroy this temple and He would raise it in three days!
Verse 21-HE SPOKE OF THE TEMPLE OF HIS BODY!!! NOT SPIRIT. The word body here can never mean spirit.

As for Peter- I know the watchtower loves to pick up on "in the spirit" But sadly the word is "ho" which is the definite article "the". And given that paul wrote Jesus was raised by the Spirit the Watchtower lie bears no merit.

The entire world of intelligent people knows that resurrection from the dead means the body comes to life again. Resurrection =anastasis which is stasis- standing , ana= again! So if you can show me a verse that Jesus died an invisible spirit creature, I will repent and believe what teh Watchtower says. Otherwise I will go with what is written in Gods Inspired Word!!!

 

[RLT63]

Seriously...that is all you have to ask in response to what was posted?.....sorry, but God has his own reasons for his choices...you need to take that up with him.

It’s as though I have an apple and you are trying to convince me it’s an orange

 

[Aunty Jane]

And everyone in eternity who has trusted in the death, burial and PHYSICAL resurrection of Jesus for their sins will live on the new earth! Why? Because heaven comes down to earth, which is the habitation of the church- and it is not the made up number of 144,000, it is in teh untold millions.

That might be the way you see things, but it isn’t what the Bible says.....Peter clearly states that Jesus was “raised in the spirit” not the flesh.......what the Jews believed about resurrection had to be altered at the appropriate time to reveal a spiritual resurrection...not in mortal flesh, but as spirit beings who can dwell in the presence of God. This is something the apostles did not comprehend until Pentecost when their anointing with God’s spirit revealed all about their future resurrection.

Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, the apostles thought he would appear again to establish his kingdom on earth at that time....(Acts 1:8) But they would recall that Jesus said he was going to “prepare a place” for them “in the house of his Father”.....which was in heaven. There has been no physical house of God on earth since the Romans were permitted to destroy Jehovah’s temple in 70 C.E.

The kingdom is in heaven, but it’s subjects will live on earth. All Christians will not go to heaven, nor will all of them reside on earth. The ones who go to heaven will have a different resurrection to those who will come back to life on earth. The heavenly rulers will have earthly subjects, and there will be sinners for whom to act as priests.....the whole purpose of the kingdom is to restore humankind to a sinless condition and to resume what God began in Eden.

Mankind were designed to live an everlasting, though mortal existence on a lovingly prepared earth.....being mortal does not mean that a person has to die....only that they can. Death only came to man because of one man’s disobedience. The sacrifice of an equivalent life, balanced the scales of justice and freed mankind of the curse of death....but not right away, as we see mankind in more danger today than ever.

Suffering is still widespread throughout the earth from a multitude of causes.....but we live in hope of the kingdom ‘coming’ to restore God’s rulership to the earth and to end the rulership of corrupt humans under influence from “the god of this world”. (Daniel 2:44; 2 Cor 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19)

Heaven cannot come down to earth, because the two are incompatible opposites.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It’s as though I have an apple and you are trying to convince me it’s an orange

Or that the apple never was an apple...you just assumed that it was because someone told you so. It was always an orange.

 

[RLT63]

Or that the apple never was an apple...you just assumed that it was because someone told you so. It was always an orange.

I don’t need anyone to tell me what the scriptures clearly say. You’re repeating what someone told you, what you’ve been taught for decades.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That might be the way you see things, but it isn’t what the Bible says.....Peter clearly states that Jesus was “raised in the spirit” not the flesh.......what the Jews believed about resurrection had to be altered at the appropriate time to reveal a spiritual resurrection...not in mortal flesh, but as spirit beings who can dwell in the presence of God. This is something the apostles did not comprehend until Pentecost when their anointing with God’s spirit revealed all about their future resurrection.

Even as Jesus was ascending to heaven, the apostles thought he would appear again to establish his kingdom on earth at that time....(Acts 1:8) But they would recall that Jesus said he was going to “prepare a place” for them “in the house of his Father”.....which was in heaven. There has been no physical house of God on earth since the Romans were permitted to destroy Jehovah’s temple in 70 C.E.

The kingdom is in heaven, but it’s subjects will live on earth. All Christians will not go to heaven, nor will all of them reside on earth. The ones who go to heaven will have a different resurrection to those who will come back to life on earth. The heavenly rulers will have earthly subjects, and there will be sinners for whom to act as priests.....the whole purpose of the kingdom is to restore humankind to a sinless condition and to resume what God began in Eden.

Mankind were designed to live an everlasting, though mortal existence on a lovingly prepared earth.....being mortal does not mean that a person has to die....only that they can. Death only came to man because of one man’s disobedience. The sacrifice of an equivalent life, balanced the scales of justice and freed mankind of the curse of death....but not right away, as we see mankind in more danger today than ever.

Suffering is still widespread throughout the earth from a multitude of causes.....but we live in hope of the kingdom ‘coming’ to restore God’s rulership to the earth and to end the rulership of corrupt humans under influence from “the god of this world”. (Daniel 2:44; 2 Cor 4:3-4; 1 John 5:19)

Heaven cannot come down to earth, because the two are incompatible opposites.

Everything you wrote is the exact opposite of what teh Bible teaches and is simply a regurgitation of watchtower reinterpretation of the bible..

Jesus was raised by the spirit not as a spirit!

Luke shows us that Jesus told the disciples that a Spirit has not flesh and bones as they saw Jesus had. The whole "Jesus manufactured bodies" is a watchtower made up fairy tale.

In JOhn 2 Jesus told the pharisees that whatever they destroyed, He would raise up in three days. They did not desatroy Jesus as an invisible spirit creature!

Even the term resurrection means a rising of what was laid down! So th ewatchtower has lied to you!

And as far as heaven coming to earth?

Revelation 21

King James Version

​

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.
18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.
19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;
20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.
21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 22

King James Version

​

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Gods inspired Word shows the Watchtower has lied to you!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Everything you wrote is the exact opposite of what teh Bible teaches and is simply a regurgitation of watchtower reinterpretation of the bible..

And may I ask, is what you believe merely a regurgitation of someone else's doctrines? Who are your teachers?
Has a member of your church ever called on me in my whole lifetime to tell me "the good news of the kingdom"? (Matthew 24:14) The answer is NO NEVER! because for some reason, no one from the churches does what Christ commanded us all to do. Lives are at stake and he did not tell us to sit in a building for a short sermon once a week, only preaching to the converted.

Is there something that excuses those Christians from fulfilling what Jesus said as a command, (Matthew 28:19-20)....it wasn't a recommendation in case you feel like it....and excused if you don't. We are all to be bearers of the good news and if we fail to warn people about God's intentions, we will pay for our failure. (Ezekiel 3:17-18)

Jesus was raised by the spirit not as a spirit!

No, Jesus was raised "in the spirit"...he was put to death in the flesh, and that sacrificed body was presented to God as an atonement for Adam's sin. He did not take back the body he sacrificed.....that is ridiculous! When an animal was used for sacrifice, its body was disposed of....it was not brought back to life.

Here it is in the Greek Interlinear...
"Because hoti Christ Christos also kai suffered paschō once hapax for peri our sins hamartia, the righteous dikaios on behalf of hyper the unrighteous adikos, that hina he might lead prosagō you hymeis to ho God theos. He was put to death thanatoō in the flesh sarx but de made alive zōiopoieō in the spirit pneuma".

Jesus required a spirit body in order to return to heaven....a place where flesh cannot go.

In order to go to heaven as Paul wrote, a complete transformation is necessary....
1 Cor 15:50-54...
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

Luke shows us that Jesus told the disciples that a Spirit has not flesh and bones as they saw Jesus had. The whole "Jesus manufactured bodies" is a watchtower made up fairy tale.

So I guess the materializing of angels is just a WT fairy tale too then? In what form did the angels appear when three of them visited Abraham and Sarah to bring them the news of Isaac's coming into the world? (Gen 18) They ate and drank like any other humans. Then two of them physically escorted Lot and his family from Sodom where they also partook of a meal provided for them.

When the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel he was described as an "able bodied man"....and 500 years later, he appeared to Mary to tell her of the coming birth of her son. He was not in spirit form because the Jews were forbidden to communicate with spirits. Jesus was raised as a spirit but he materialized fleshly bodies to "appear" to his apostles and others.

Spirit beings can materialize.....its well documented in the scriptures. No fairy tales....just miracles that we do not understand.

In John 2 Jesus told the pharisees that whatever they destroyed, He would raise up in three days. They did not desatroy Jesus as an invisible spirit creature!

No, God raised Jesus from the dead, but not until three days later. Just as Jonah was in the belly of the fish, Jesus said he would be in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40)

When Jesus said "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said: “This temple was built in 46 years, and will you raise it up in three days?” 21 But he was talking about the temple of his body."

So what is "the temple of his body"? The physical temple was the seat of God's worship on earth, but with types and shadows, there is a grand spiritual temple in heaven, in which Christ with his "body" will rule mankind. Only upon his resurrection could he return to heaven to prepare a place for that body. Raised with Jesus were all the promises that God made through the sacrifice of his son....and the very reason why the Kingdom was required to bring them all to fruition.

Even the term resurrection means a rising of what was laid down! So the watchtower has lied to you!

It literally means "standing up again" and those who are clothed with a spirit body upon their resurrection, like Jesus, will retain all that they were in personality and in readiness to serve their God in this most important capacity.

And as far as heaven coming to earth?

Revelation 22​

The Kingdom rules from heaven over earthly subjects and Revelation 21 sees that Kingdom bringing its rulership to mankind as it says in verses 3-4....

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

By cleansing the earth of wickedness again he will this time, make it permanent.

Revelation 22:17....
"And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely."

We are all under obligation to preach the word and extend God's invitation to others......unless we are taking the message out to the people, how will hear the truth? And how will they make the right decisions unless they have heard it from the right source? In Jesus' day the Jews had to make a choice....listen to their hypocritical religious leaders, or listen to Jesus and his disciples? Was it an easy choice to leave the mainstream to then swim upstream against the tide of public opinion? (John 15:18-21)

Romans 10:13-15....
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (The LORD here is Jehovah, not Jesus, as Paul was quoting from Joel 2:32)

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

You can stick to your guns if you choose to, but none of the readers here will ever be able to plead ignorance. It doesn't mean that they won't try......(Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So I guess the materializing of angels is just a WT fairy tale too then? In what form did the angels appear when three of them visited Abraham and Sarah to bring them the news of Isaac's coming into the world? (Gen 18) They ate and drank like any other humans. Then two of them physically escorted Lot and his family from Sodom where they also partook of a meal provided for them.

When the angel Gabriel appeared to Daniel he was described as an "able bodied man"....and 500 years later, he appeared to Mary to tell her of the coming birth of her son. He was not in spirit form because the Jews were forbidden to communicate with spirits. Jesus was raised as a spirit but he materialized fleshly bodies to "appear" to his apostles and others.

Spirit beings can materialize.....its well documented in the scriptures. No fairy tales....just miracles that we do not understand.

True, but not one angel said in His appearing that a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me have, like Jesus said!

Also why do all of you JW's here simply ignore that Jesus said if the pharisees destroyed HIs body, in three days He would raise His body from the grave? Are you afraid?

The Kingdom rules from heaven over earthly subjects and Revelation 21 sees that Kingdom bringing its rulership to mankind as it says in verses 3-4....

"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

Should have picked a different verse. This one shows God will be with mankind! Not up in heaven, because in the prior verses the city of God comes down from heaven and God tabernacles with man! Sorry but the Watchtower lied to you!

It literally means "standing up again" and those who are clothed with a spirit body upon their resurrection, like Jesus, will retain all that they were in personality and in readiness to serve their God in this most important capacity.

WOW! You must be a champ at eh game of twister! YOu have twisted the meaning of the word resurrection until it has no sense of its true meaning!

But you condemn yourself by your own words! For resurrection (anastasis) does mean a standing again! And it is the body that was laid down and the body that stands again! You even believe in the resurrection of the dead, for th e watchtower tells you the righteous dead will come back to life and live on earth.

And may I ask, is what you believe merely a regurgitation of someone else's doctrines? Who are your teachers?
Has a member of your church ever called on me in my whole lifetime to tell me "the good news of the kingdom"? (Matthew 24:14) The answer is NO NEVER! because for some reason, no one from the churches does what Christ commanded us all to do. Lives are at stake and he did not tell us to sit in a building for a short sermon once a week, only preaching to the converted.

Is there something that excuses those Christians from fulfilling what Jesus said as a command, (Matthew 28:19-20)....it wasn't a recommendation in case you feel like it....and excused if you don't. We are all to be bearers of the good news and if we fail to warn people about God's intentions, we will pay for our failure. (Ezekiel 3:17-18)

My teachers? Jesus, Peter, Paul, James Jude, JOhn , the Holy Spirit.

Well I have reached out to tens of thousands in my life so your lie is exposed that NO One obey the great commssion.

I cannot and will not speak for the "those" you are judging here. They are not in my wheelhouse so I cannot speak to them. Those I have taught for over our decades I have drilled into them to share the good news.

We are all under obligation to preach the word and extend God's invitation to others......unless we are taking the message out to the people, how will hear the truth? And how will they make the right decisions unless they have heard it from the right source? In Jesus' day the Jews had to make a choice....listen to their hypocritical religious leaders, or listen to Jesus and his disciples? Was it an easy choice to leave the mainstream to then swim upstream against the tide of public opinion? (John 15:18-21)

Unfortunately Jane, you have been taught to bring another gospel. By denying the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead, you have excluded yourself from the kingdom of God and teach others to be excluded as well! I believe you are probably a wonderful person, very devoted and very zealous for the Watchtower and the kingdom halls and your concept of God But by ejecting Jesus physical resurrection, all that is for naught.

 

[Aunty Jane]

True, but not one angel said in His appearing that a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see me have, like Jesus said!

So, just because the angels did not say that they were “flesh and bones”, that makes their materialization different to the one Jesus manifested? He walked through walls for goodness sake. He dematerialized right before their eyes.....he was not flesh and bone but could materialize such at will. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Also why do all of you JW's here simply ignore that Jesus said if the pharisees destroyed HIs body, in three days He would raise His body from the grave? Are you afraid?

He was speaking about “the temple of his body”.....his “body” were his apostles and disciples (the body of Christ) who were anointed with Holy Spirit at Pentecost, to rule with him in heaven. When Jesus was raised after three days he opened the way to heaven which was symbolized by the tenting in two of the curtain that divided the Holy compartment of the Temple from the Most Holy. Opening the way for his “body” to follow later.

Should have picked a different verse. This one shows God will be with mankind! Not up in heaven, because in the prior verses the city of God comes down from heaven and God tabernacles with man! Sorry but the Watchtower lied to you!

Oh dear, can you not follow what is said to you at all? Revelation reveals that the kingdom is in heaven...Mt Zion is “heavenly Jerusalem” where Jesus is seen with his bride, “the 144,000” chosen from the earth.....types and shadows Ron.
The place where Jesus told his apostles that he was going to “prepare a place for them was in his Father’s house”.....where did he go to do that? Does God have a house here on earth ?

WOW! You must be a champ at eh game of twister! YOu have twisted the meaning of the word resurrection until it has no sense of its true meaning!

I find your own notions extremely twisted, so your interpretation has no meaning or connection to anything Jesus taught according to my studies of the scriptures.

But you condemn yourself by your own words! For resurrection (anastasis) does mean a standing again! And it is the body that was laid down and the body that stands again! You even believe in the resurrection of the dead, for th e watchtower tells you the righteous dead will come back to life and live on earth.

Tell me please what a resurrection meant to a Jew in Jesus’ day......his audience were exclusively Jewish.
When Jesus raised Lazarus, where did Jesus say that he was. (John 11:11-14) What did Martha reiterate to Jesus as to the resurrection? They believed in the general resurrection of mankind who slept in their graves awaiting the call to rise as Lazarus did. (John 11:24) Jesus will call them out...to resume life on earth with their loved ones. (John 5:28-29)

But there is a “first resurrection” that takes place before that general resurrection of the dead. (Rev 20:6) This resurrection is to heaven. A place where Jesus was to “prepare” as abode for those with the “heavenly calling”. (Col 1:4-5; Hebrews 3:1)

Jesus did not take back the body he sacrificed....why would he? He had to return to his Father in the spirit realm...a place where flesh cannot go.

My teachers? Jesus, Peter, Paul, James Jude, JOhn , the Holy Spirit.

Well, that explains a lot.....are you just another “Lone Ranger” declaring that you alone have the truth revealed exclusively to you, but that you have no global brotherhood who believes as you do? You see, Christianity was to be spread in all the world by the word of the witness given by Jesus disciples. (Matt 24:14) Is your brotherhood global...are they found in every nation on earth, believing the same truths as you do?

With whom do you worship Ron? Who holds to the same truths as you do? Can you identify them?

Well I have reached out to tens of thousands in my life so your lie is exposed that NO One obey the great commission.

So you have single handedly performed the great commission ......how exhausting!

How many of those thousands have actually accepted what you preached? Do you have your own church?
Are all in agreement with what you believe? If not, then you have a problem. (1 Cor 1:10)

I cannot and will not speak for the "those" you are judging here. They are not in my wheelhouse so I cannot speak to them. Those I have taught for over our decades I have drilled into them to share the good news.

What is this “good news” that you told them to share, exactly? Jesus said that it was to be “the good news of the kingdom”....so what is the kingdom and what is so good about it?

Unfortunately Jane, you have been taught to bring another gospel. By denying the physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead, you have excluded yourself from the kingdom of God and teach others to be excluded as well!

Unfortunately Ron, the one you hold is not based on the teachings of Christ, and as far as I can see, it appears to be all your own work.

I do not have the right to exclude anyone form the Kingdom...that is not my job....what is my job is to tell the truth about God and about Christ and about what the kingdom is and what it will do for mankind.....your truth is not my truth, so we will have to wait and see who it is that is rejected by our judge. Jesus says that he has “never” known those he rejects....yet they are so sure of their standing. What an awful shock it will be. (Matthew 7:21-23)

I believe you are probably a wonderful person, very devoted and very zealous for the Watchtower and the kingdom halls and your concept of God But by ejecting Jesus physical resurrection, all that is for naught.

Thank you, and I see that you too are sincere in your beliefs....but then, so was Saul of Tarsus.
Jesus gave him a tap on the shoulder and his Jewish pride may have stumbled him, but he copped it on the chin, admitted that his zeal was misdirected and channeled all his activities from then on to the very cause that he had so vehemently opposed.

Imagine the humility it took to admit he was so wrong, and how his actions must have affected a lot of Jews.
He was the only educated one among the Apostles and Christ used his education to send him to not just the Jews, but to the Gentiles whom he formerly despised, as he did the Christians.

As a former church educated person who saw the need to abandon that hypocritical rabble, I have chosen to become what I believe is a genuine Christian....who is part of a global family who all hold to the same truths without dissension. We have found “the faithful slave” that Jesus appointed in these last days to “feed” his entire household “their food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45) They are fulfilling the great commission in a way that no one else is.....so the evidence from my standpoint is certainly not in your camp.

This is the time for separation and that is indeed what is taking place......the wheat have separated completely from the weeds of Christendom and do not hold any beliefs or practices in common with them.

The reapers are standing at the ready to go and gather the weeds first, and to dispose of them. Then Jesus will gather the wheat into his storehouse.
Where will we find ourselves when that happens? Only Jesus knows.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So, just because the angels did not say that they were “flesh and bones”, that makes their materialization different to the one Jesus manifested? He walked through walls for goodness sake. He dematerialized right before their eyes.....he was not flesh and bone but could materialize such at will. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Now we just don't know do we? The bible doesn't say anything except Jesus said if they destroyed His Body8, in three days He would raise it up! And guess what over 500 people saw Jesus alive after He said He would rise form the dead!!!!!! In a body!!!!

He was speaking about “the temple of his body”.....his “body” were his apostles and disciples (the body of Christ) who were anointed with Holy Spirit at Pentecost, to rule with him in heaven. When Jesus was raised after three days he opened the way to heaven which was symbolized by the tenting in two of the curtain that divided the Holy compartment of the Temple from the Most Holy. Opening the way for his “body” to follow later.

WOW! You should write fiction! You can twist the Scriptures wonderfully. But altering the meaning of Scrfipture is deadly! Anmd what you wrote above is a bold face lie!

John 2:19-23

King James Version

​

19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.
23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.

Only someone intentionally looking to change the Word of God would comeup with your answer.

Oh dear, can you not follow what is said to you at all? Revelation reveals that the kingdom is in heaven...Mt Zion is “heavenly Jerusalem” where Jesus is seen with his bride, “the 144,000” chosen from the earth.....types and shadows Ron.
The place where Jesus told his apostles that he was going to “prepare a place for them was in his Father’s house”.....where did he go to do that? Does God have a house here on earth ?

Types and symbols. That is what all unbelieving cults use to justify their altering the word of God!

Revelation 21

King James Version

​

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

So you do not believe what God inspired to have written here. You think it has to be reinterpreted by some organization so yo can know what God meant to say? I feel bad for you.

The place where Jesus told his apostles that he was going to “prepare a place for them was in his Father’s house”.....where did he go to do that? Does God have a house here on earth ?

As REv. 21 says- God will!

I find your own notions extremely twisted, so your interpretation has no meaning or connection to anything Jesus taught according to my studies of the scriptures.

Well I can't answer to your studies- especially if they involve the reinterpreting of Scripture the Watchtower has done to deceive people.

Tell me please what a resurrection meant to a Jew in Jesus’ day......his audience were exclusively Jewish.

Someone physically coming back to life who was physically dead!

Jesus did not take back the body he sacrificed....why would he? He had to return to his Father in the spirit realm...a place where flesh cannot go.

Jesus did! It was the blood that was neccessary for the forgiveness of sins, That is why Jesus told Thomas He was flesh and bone and not the common flesh and blood. He was the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Well, that explains a lot.....are you just another “Lone Ranger” declaring that you alone have the truth revealed exclusively to you, but that you have no global brotherhood who believes as you do? You see, Christianity was to be spread in all the world by the word of the witness given by Jesus disciples. (Matt 24:14) Is your brotherhood global...are they found in every nation on earth, believing the same truths as you do?

With whom do you worship Ron? Who holds to the same truths as you do? Can you identify them?

No I submit to a pastor teacher and I worship in a Baptist church. And yes believers (not the JW's) have been bringing th egospel around the world for centuries now- even during the dark ages when Rome rules the church for a millenia.

Yes my brother hood is global.

So you have single handedly performed the great commission ......how exhausting!

How many of those thousands have actually accepted what you preached? Do you have your own church?
Are all in agreement with what you believe? If not, then you have a problem. (1 Cor 1:10)

Must be nice to use exaggeration ot make yourself look foolish. No, I have not fulfilled the great commission single handedly. I am merely trying to do all that God commands me to do. I cannot tell you how many of the thousands I have shared the gospel with have gotten saved- God does and I will leave that number with Him.

Unfortunately Ron, the one you hold is not based on the teachings of Christ, and as far as I can see, it appears to be all your own work.

I understand why you say this. Because of the indoctrination of the Watchtower you cannot see very far. But I do teach the bible without the need for all sorts of books by a man made organization. I wll let God decide if the work I have done is His or mine.

I do not have the right to exclude anyone form the Kingdom...that is not my job....what is my job is to tell the truth about God and about Christ and about what the kingdom is and what it will do for mankind.....your truth is not my truth, so we will have to wait and see who it is that is rejected by our judge. Jesus says that he has “never” known those he rejects....yet they are so sure of their standing. What an awful shock it will be. (Matthew 7:21-23)

Nor can I exclude anyone from the kingdom. bjut I can tell people with 100% certainty and the authority of the Word of God, that if one dies without accepting the physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin- they will suffer in the lake of fire for eternity. That is not me judging- that is the Word of Yahweh!

What is this “good news” that you told them to share, exactly? Jesus said that it was to be “the good news of the kingdom”....so what is the kingdom and what is so good about it?

That they must be born again! By this it means they must place their full trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full and only acceptable payment for their sin before God the Father.

If they truly do this, then they are made a new creature, made alive spiritually and learn how to live a life pleasing to their Father in heaven!

Then comes a lifetime of teaching and exhorting and sharing and praying etcl.etc.etc.etc.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thank you, and I see that you too are sincere in your beliefs....but then, so was Saul of Tarsus.
Jesus gave him a tap on the shoulder and his Jewish pride may have stumbled him, but he copped it on the chin, admitted that his zeal was misdirected and channeled all his activities from then on to the very cause that he had so vehemently opposed.

Imagine the humility it took to admit he was so wrong, and how his actions must have affected a lot of Jews.
He was the only educated one among the Apostles and Christ used his education to send him to not just the Jews, but to the Gentiles whom he formerly despised, as he did the Christians.

Just like me! Though I was not knocked off a horse, I was knocked off worshipping the enemy of man-Satan.

As a former church educated person who saw the need to abandon that hypocritical rabble, I have chosen to become what I believe is a genuine Christian....who is part of a global family who all hold to the same truths without dissension. We have found “the faithful slave” that Jesus appointed in these last days to “feed” his entire household “their food at the proper time”. (Matt 24:45) They are fulfilling the great commission in a way that no one else is.....so the evidence from my standpoint is certainly not in your camp.

That is sad for you threw the baby out with the bath water as they say. Hypocritical rabble will always plague the church of God. Satan doesn't infiltrate places that he already owns.

You are like Paul - have a zeal fo god but according ot wrong knowledge. I do not know which church you left- I left Catholicism after I got saved (went back to it cuz it was all I knew) for I saw their teachings did not line up with Scripture.

Well I hate to tell you this- but works do not save a soul. You can do all teh good deeds in teh world but if you are not trusting in the physical resurrection of Jesus as the on;ly payment for your sin debt- as in Matt. 7, He will say to you "depart from me you worker of iniquity, I NEVER knew you" I want better for you than that.

Obviously you do not know much about what truew Christianity is doing to fulfill the great commission. You are forbidden by the Watchtower to pick up Christian books (those not written by the Watchtower) so you cannot possibly know the work being done.

You are just told of the evils of Christendonm- which I agree with. but Christendom was prophesied by Jesus and has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[The Learner]

Gods inspired Word shows the Watchtower has lied to you!

From the context, Jesus was preaching to those in the grave. Peter is not speaking of Jesus's Resurrection from the grave. I do not see how the watchtower can be so spiritually blind.

2 Corinthians 4:4
They do not believe, because their minds have been kept in the dark by the evil god of this world. He keeps them from seeing the light shining on them, the light that comes from the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

I Peter 3
17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if this should be God's will, than for doing evil. 18 For Christ died[a] for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 19 and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. 20 These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building his boat. The few people in the boat—eight in all—were saved by the water, 21 which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you. It is not the washing off of bodily dirt, but the promise made to God from a good conscience. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone to heaven and is at the right side of God, ruling over all angels and heavenly authorities and powers.

Isaiah 14:3-11

Good News Translation

​

The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead​

3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do. 4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:
“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!
9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

From the context, Jesus was preaching to those in the grave. Peter is not speaking of Jesus's Resurrection from the grave. I do not see how the watchtower can be so spiritually blind.

2 Corinthians 4:4
They do not believe, because their minds have been kept in the dark by the evil god of this world. He keeps them from seeing the light shining on them, the light that comes from the Good News about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

I Peter 3
17 For it is better to suffer for doing good, if this should be God's will, than for doing evil. 18 For Christ died[a] for sins once and for all, a good man on behalf of sinners, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death physically, but made alive spiritually, 19 and in his spiritual existence he went and preached to the imprisoned spirits. 20 These were the spirits of those who had not obeyed God when he waited patiently during the days that Noah was building his boat. The few people in the boat—eight in all—were saved by the water, 21 which was a symbol pointing to baptism, which now saves you. It is not the washing off of bodily dirt, but the promise made to God from a good conscience. It saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone to heaven and is at the right side of God, ruling over all angels and heavenly authorities and powers.

Isaiah 14:3-11​

​

Good News Translation​

​

​

The King of Babylon in the World of the Dead​

3 The Lord will give the people of Israel relief from their pain and suffering and from the hard work they were forced to do. 4 When he does this, they are to mock the king of Babylon and say:
“The cruel king has fallen! He will never oppress anyone again! 5 The Lord has ended the power of the evil rulers 6 who angrily oppressed the peoples and never stopped persecuting the nations they had conquered. 7 Now at last the whole world enjoys rest and peace, and everyone sings for joy. 8 The cypress trees and the cedars of Lebanon rejoice over the fallen king, because there is no one to cut them down, now that he is gone!
9 “The world of the dead is getting ready to welcome the king of Babylon. The ghosts of those who were powerful on earth are stirring about. The ghosts of kings are rising from their thrones. 10 They all call out to him, ‘Now you are as weak as we are! You are one of us! 11 You used to be honored with the music of harps, but now here you are in the world of the dead. You lie on a bed of maggots and are covered with a blanket of worms.’”
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The reason they do not believe is found in one word-----PRIDE.

Tjhey want to present to God reasons why God must save them by their good deeds.
This is a bold statement but true nonetheless, the JW's here have been shown the light, but they prefer the darkness because their deeds are evil as is written in John.

I pray for their salvation. I also pray that many of them once the believing church is raptured will truly become th egreat crowd spoken of in REvelation. Just like the Jews, I pray teh blinders will be lifted and they can finally look at Gods Word apart from the demonic lies of the Watchtower.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That they must be born again! By this it means they must place their full trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full and only acceptable payment for their sin before God the Father.

You keep repeating this....but where does the Bible say that we must believe in the “physical” resurrection of Christ when Peter clearly states that Jesus was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”? (1 Peter 3:18) If he was raised “in the flesh” Peter would have said so....he didn’t.

How would Jesus take his 'flesh and bones' to heaven?....minus his blood? Is that what you think? Where does it say that?

At 1 Cor 15:50-53 Paul wrote of his fellow elect....
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal mustput on immortality.” (KJV)

What does Paul tell us....?
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God....can flesh be flesh without blood?.....what creature of flesh has no blood to oxygenate every cell in their body?......so how can your scenario fit what Paul says there? According to you it is flesh and blood that does inherit the kingdom here on earth....yet Jesus clearly said that he was taking his elect to heaven....but many will "sleep" in death before that takes place.
Only those alive when Jesus returns, will not need to "sleep".

Paul wrote to the Colossians....but notice who he mentions....
“To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,
5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel”. (KJV)

This is your chosen translation, and here Paul makes a clear difference between the “saints” (elect) and “the faithful brethren”....and it is the brethren who express love for the “all the saints” who have a “hope which is laid up...in heaven”. Not all have "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1)

Someone is schooled in their theology but not in the Bible as a whole......so who is presenting themselves as NOT indoctrinated, when they clearly are......? Your whole scenario is full of holes.

That is sad for you threw the baby out with the bath water as they say. Hypocritical rabble will always plague the church of God. Satan doesn't infiltrate places that he already owns.

No, I’m sorry......Jehovah and his Christ are not part of that hypocritical rabble in any way. Christendom does not teach a single thing that Jesus did. None of their doctrines or practices come from the Bible, but are grafted into misinterpreted scripture......they teach from the old traditions that came to be substituted for God’s word when Christendom was born in the early centuries. History is repeating, only on a grander scale. What the devil did to Judaism, he has done even more so to Christendom. (Matthew 15: 7-9) No one seems to notice, but that is exactly what Jesus foretold....(Matthew 24:37-39)

“Christendom” is identified by the core beliefs that all their thousands of sects hold in common (including your own)....i.e......a triune godhead....immortality of the soul.....and hellfire of eternal torment....none of which were believed by the first Christians or taught by Christ and his apostles....and all of which are believed by those in pagan religions around the world. How can “Christians” share beliefs with those who worship satan’s false gods....(2 Cor 6:14-18)

There is only ONE truth......we just have to find the ones who teach it...but it can only happen with God’s guidance. (John 6:65) Many thousands will say "that is us"...but they will be sadly mistaken.

Well I hate to tell you this- but works do not save a soul. You can do all teh good deeds in teh world but if you are not trusting in the physical resurrection of Jesus as the on;ly payment for your sin debt- as in Matt. 7, He will say to you "depart from me you worker of iniquity, I NEVER knew you" I want better for you than that.

I don’t recall saying that works alone were necessary for salvation.....according to James though, if we have no works to back up our faith...it is “dead”. (James 2:18-26)
Those whom Christ will reject at the judgment will be promoting a false Christianity, identified by the same core of beliefs that run through all false religion manufactured by God's enemy. Because Christ is at this moment separating the “sheep from the goats”, this means that these two groups will have nothing in common....true Christians will be completely different from those who merely claim Jesus as their “Lord”.

From my perspective, all you have done is jump out of the frying pan, into a smaller frying pan. The same fire burns under both.
But your choices are yours to make....as are mine.

Obviously you do not know much about what truew Christianity is doing to fulfill the great commission. You are forbidden by the Watchtower to pick up Christian books (those not written by the Watchtower) so you cannot possibly know the work being done.

I am fully aware of what Christendom claims to have done and it sounds very familiar. (Matthew 7:21-23)

You criticize our organization for publishing books to help people understand the scriptures, and then point to others who publish such books and praise them for fulfilling the great commission....good grief....

When I ask those in Christendom what "the good news of the kingdom" is....I get a bunch of vague answers.
If none of you can explain it clearly, then how are you “preaching the good news of the kingdom”? (Matthew 24:14) It means that none of you have any idea what Jesus taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer. The “coming” of the kingdom was second only to the sanctification of God’s name, which you also fail to acknowledge....grumbling over pronunciation as if God doesn't know his name in all languages....?

How does the kingdom “come” Ron? Tell me....

You are just told of the evils of Christendonm- which I agree with. but Christendom was prophesied by Jesus and has nothing to do with Christianity.

You are funny....I am told nothing that I have not thoroughly researched for myself....you yourself have a 'party line' from your own denomination that you promote. Are all Baptist’s then on the same page? (1 Cor 1:10) You know that they are not....
So, how are you any different to all the other "Christian" denominations? Our individual conviction is no indication that either one of us is correct.....all we can do is count on God to “draw” us to his truth.....because if we are not so "drawn", but have a "deluded" view of who and where we are, then only at the judgment will we know for sure. (John 6:44, 65; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
Believing something doesn’t make it true.....and it is “few” who are on the road to life....so who can confidently assume that the other person has it all wrong? Look what happened to Jesus and his disciples....only a remnant of the natural Jews accepted him as the Christ......the rest were confident that he should die as a common criminal and even cursed themselves with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)

Confidence isn’t always the best test of accuracy.

 

[Wrangler]

ou keep repeating this....but where does the Bible say that we must believe in the “physical” resurrection of Christ when Peter clearly states that Jesus was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”? (1 Peter 3:18)

While I think JW are wrong about the physical resurrection, I don't think being wrong about it means you area not Christians.

 

[Wrangler]

you yourself have a 'party line' from your own denomination that you promote. Are all Baptist’s then on the same page? (1 Cor 1:10) You know that they are not....
So, how are you any different to all the other "Christian" denominations? Our individual conviction is no indication that either one of us is correct.....all we can do is count on God to “draw” us to his truth.....because if we are not so "drawn", but have a "deluded" view of who and where we are, then only at the judgment will we know for sure. (John 6:44, 65; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I've said it many times, thank God there is no doctrinal purity test. IMO, this thread has tested JW's and you've passed the test.

You and the other JW's have expressed your doctrines - and the reasons for it well. Folks like @Ronald Nolette have fiercely argued a subjective standard, akin to "I don't agree your doctrine is right, so you are not a real Christian." I don't think it is about doctrinal differences. Rather, I think there is an animosity toward JW because you have different doctrines. Why endlessly debate theme - under the threat of eternal damnation? Most unbecoming.

The thread should be closed because it has gone well beyond the scope of the OP. Those who assert only the doctrine's of their denomination are "real" Christians do not reflect God's grace, as far as I can tell. We are not supposed to judge each other. Rom 14:1, 13; Jam 4:11-12.

Make a Blessed Day!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You keep repeating this....but where does the Bible say that we must believe in the “physical” resurrection of Christ when Peter clearly states that Jesus was “put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit”? (1 Peter 3:18) If he was raised “in the flesh” Peter would have said so....he didn’t.

How would Jesus take his 'flesh and bones' to heaven?....minus his blood? Is that what you think? Where does it say that?

Try Romans 10,

And Peter did not say made alive in the spirit. He said made alive spirit. the construct is just as much "by" as "in". And given teh fact that jesus said if you destroyed His body, in three days He would raise His body from the dead!

YOu are linking your whole eternity on a very questionable understanding of Peter, when what Jesus simply declared says the Watchtower is a liar!

How would He? don't know but He did and that is what matters.

Once again resurrection= anastasis= a standing AGAIN! What was laid down is what is stood up(again). If Jesus died as a flesh being- He would have to stand again as a flesh being- that is what resurrection means and has meant for millenia.

Lazarus was resurrectds. was He resurrected.

Remember that God declared the life of the flesh is the blood. Jesus had his blood poured out completely- that is why He could say8 He was flesh and bone- for He is the first fruits of the resurrection of ALL believers- not the Watchtower mythical 144,000.

What does Paul tell us....?
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God....can flesh be flesh without blood?.....what creature of flesh has no blood to oxygenate every cell in their body?......so how can your scenario fit what Paul says there? According to you it is flesh and blood that does inherit the kingdom here on earth....yet Jesus clearly said that he was taking his elect to heaven....but many will "sleep" in death before that takes place.
Only those alive when Jesus returns, will not need to "sleep".

Now you are challenging what God can or cannot do. This mortal will put on immortality! That is the bible.

This is your chosen translation, and here Paul makes a clear difference between the “saints” (elect) and “the faithful brethren”....and it is the brethren who express love for the “all the saints” who have a “hope which is laid up...in heaven”. Not all have "the heavenly calling" (Heb 3:1)

Well as Paul offers teh heavenly hope to both the saints and faithful brethren, I won't even bother to go into why it is not two separate peole He is talking about. That requires some education in biblical greek, which You do not have.

You say you cannot be born again or as Paul called it born of the spirit. that means you are still in the flesh. And Paul said that those in the flesh (which means human nature) cannot please God! That puts you in a hopeless dilemma in the Watchtower lies. Because you refuse to be born again- you are in your human nature- which means you cannot please God and you will not even SEE the kingdom of God! YOu really should rethink your position.

When I ask those in Christendom what "the good news of the kingdom" is....I get a bunch of vague answers.
If none of you can explain it clearly, then how are you “preaching the good news of the kingdom”? (Matthew 24:14) It means that none of you have any idea what Jesus taught us to pray for in the Lord’s Prayer. The “coming” of the kingdom was second only to the sanctification of God’s name, which you also fail to acknowledge....grumbling over pronunciation as if God doesn't know his name in all languages....?

Well I am not here to answer for "those in Christendom". I am here to tell you what gods Word says without a man made organization reinterpreting it.

You are funny....I am told nothing that I have not thoroughly researched for myself....you yourself have a 'party line' from your own denomination that you promote. Are all Baptist’s then on the same page? (1 Cor 1:10) You know that they are not....
So, how are you any different to all the other "Christian" denominations? Our individual conviction is no indication that either one of us is correct.....all we can do is count on God to “draw” us to his truth.....because if we are not so "drawn", but have a "deluded" view of who and where we are, then only at the judgment will we know for sure. (John 6:44, 65; 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
Believing something doesn’t make it true.....and it is “few” who are on the road to life....so who can confidently assume that the other person has it all wrong? Look what happened to Jesus and his disciples....only a remnant of the natural Jews accepted him as the Christ......the rest were confident that he should die as a common criminal and even cursed themselves with his blood. (Matthew 27:25)

Well as this is a theological question that requires more than 10,000 words which are the limit here, I will not get into it. But I will say that what you see in what has been dubbed "Christendom" is exactly what Jesus and the Apostles foretold would happen. Just remember The wolf does not infiltrate flocks that are already his, but subverts the real flocks to lead them astray- just like we see today in so much of Christendom.