A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

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amigo de christo

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Amigo, I don't know any Russel Nash....so he has certainly not lied to me or my brotherhood. You see when you go making accusations, you actually have to have your facts straight....otherwise all you do is spread unfounded gossip.
There is definitely symbolism in the Bible, but we have to know what is, and what isn't, literal.


I haven't amigo.....I searched for God in my youth and did not find him in any of Christendom's denominations......I evaluated their doctrines very carefully, and found them ALL to be false. You don't think the devil would leave any stone unturned to promote his deceptions do you? Yet I see you have not made your own exit from Christendom, complete...you still hang onto much of what they teach, as if it was ever the truth.....

I have rejected all that satan has dished up to people as his counterfeit "Christianity"....in fact there is nothing that I have not studied thoroughly and I am no more ready to hug the devil than you are....but my separation is complete.....I "touch nothing unclean" in my worship....and that goes for the KJV as well. It is a most biased translation, but one that I studied originally when I was searching for God.
I got to see first hand how flawed it is in its translation, so I avoid it these days. No one speaks archaic English anymore, and the KJV just causes confusion where there doesn't need to be any. It is not a Bible written by God, as many seem to imagine......but it was translated by men with an agenda...to promote Christendom' doctrines. I will not promote any of them, knowing where they all came from...the one source....the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. How many of the doctrines you hold were formulated by the RCC?

It isn't the Bible that is at fault, but the men who supposedly translated God's words into English. I have put the Greek texts to the test and found the KJV and many other translations wanting.

We all have choices amigo, and I made mine 50 years ago....I have never wavered in my faith and I am secure in the knowledge I have gained in that time of deep study. I am "no part of this world" as Jesus said....and no part of the devil's counterfeit faith that Jesus warned would be sown "while men were sleeping".

Hebrews 4:12-13...
"For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints from the marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of the one to whom we must give an account."

I will take that to the bank....
Charles russell . that is who i meant . not russell nash . Looks like the adventists and jws all took root
from a deadly movement .
 
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Ronald Nolette

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I just shared scriptures found in every translation on earth--its your darkness that cannot see truth.
remind me again of which topic we are discussing? After 10 days away and answering over 26 replies, I am a little fuzzy.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I cannot help but see that it is you who doesn’t understand the price Jesus paid....or even why he paid it the way he did......
Tell me please what you believe Jesus‘ death accomplished...and more importantly why he had to come to be born on earth as a human child and offer his life, in order to pay the required price of redemption.

Please explain the mechanics of this redemption.....
Jesus died as my sin, as the Scriptures declare-" He became sin who knew no sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God."

Jesus died for every single humans sins. So no one can enter the kingdom apart from faith alone in the death and physical resurrection as the full payment for every single one of their sins- even future ones.

One reason He became man is to understand the human condition so He may be a faithful high priest on our behalf before my Father in heaven.

Teh physical part of His crucifixion is not the important part. It is when God the Father turned His back on Jesus because Jesus was every sin ever committed or will be committed. God poured out His wrath on Jesus for sin. When Jesus said "My God My God why have you totally abandoned me- Jesus was suffering in time what a human would have to suffer in eternity for their sin.

So Yes I understand why Jesus died and how enormous of a deal and how great a love was given to me because of Him!
 

Keiw

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Charles Taze Russell

Using bible chronology from Daniel--2520 years from the time Jerusalem was destroyed=607 bce + 2520= 1914, the establishment of Gods kingdom in heaven=Rev 6-He receives his crown--Is how in 1879 C.T.Russell said--( Rev 6:4)peace will be taken from the earth in 1914=ww1-Millions upon millions slaughtered in hate because the ride of the white horse( righteous war) =war in heaven-satan and his angels cast to the earth, booted out of heaven forever, he came angry knowing his time was short.( Mr Russell confused that ride to be Armageddon) After ww1 millions upon millions died all over the earth from things mentioned of the other 3 riders. The spanish flu killed 1 million-then Dr,s made up their own vaccinations-they estimate 50-100 million more died from that. Mr Russell uncovered many truths.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Romans 11:16-24
Oh dear...you are not a Bible student are you RLT?
Read the whole chapter and see who this is talking about.....you post scripture without any clue as to what it means...
What did Paul say in the verses before your cherry pick....?

13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if their being cast away means reconciliation for the world, what will the acceptance of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.”

Paul knew that only a remnant from among his own people would be saved....and only if they accepted Jesus as the Christ as he himself had done. The Gentiles were the grafted branches...the root of spiritual Israel was holy, (where unfaithful natural Israel was not) so the grafted branches became holy to Jehovah as well.

The “firstfruits” are the elect...”the Israel of God”...those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven.
These will have earthly subjects. (Revelation 14:1-4; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 21:2-4)

Read and study....you may learn something...but only if you want to....
 

RLT63

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Oh dear...you are not a Bible student are you RLT?
Read the whole chapter and see who this is talking about.....you post scripture without any clue as to what it means...
What did Paul say in the verses before your cherry pick....?

13 Now I speak to you who are people of the nations. Seeing that I am an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry 14 to see if I may in some way incite my own people to jealousy and save some from among them. 15 For if their being cast away means reconciliation for the world, what will the acceptance of them mean but life from the dead? 16 Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also.”

Paul knew that only a remnant from among his own people would be saved....and only if they accepted Jesus as the Christ as he himself had done. The Gentiles were the grafted branches...the root of spiritual Israel was holy, (where unfaithful natural Israel was not) so the grafted branches became holy to Jehovah as well.

The “firstfruits” are the elect...”the Israel of God”...those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven.
These will have earthly subjects. (Revelation 14:1-4; Galatians 6:16; Revelation 21:2-4)

Read and study....you may learn something...but only if you want to....
Keep reading in Romans 11:26-29
 

Aunty Jane

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Jesus died as my sin, as the Scriptures declare-" He became sin who knew no sin, so that we might become the righteousness of God."

Jesus died for every single humans sins. So no one can enter the kingdom apart from faith alone in the death and physical resurrection as the full payment for every single one of their sins- even future ones.

One reason He became man is to understand the human condition so He may be a faithful high priest on our behalf before my Father in heaven.

Teh physical part of His crucifixion is not the important part. It is when God the Father turned His back on Jesus because Jesus was every sin ever committed or will be committed. God poured out His wrath on Jesus for sin. When Jesus said "My God My God why have you totally abandoned me- Jesus was suffering in time what a human would have to suffer in eternity for their sin.

So Yes I understand why Jesus died and how enormous of a deal and how great a love was given to me because of Him!
Please let me say up front that I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment.....what I doubt is your grasp of the most important sacrifice that was ever made in the history of mankind. How was Jesus a "ransom in exchange for many"?

Here is why I think you have missed the whole point.....I apologise for the length of this, but details are important to me....I ask questions because they demand answers.

Why was Jesus’ sacrifice needed in the first place? What did his death accomplish in the big picture?
Why was God’s kingdom implemented with Jesus as king? And why did he need to take some "from among mankind" to act as 'kings and priests' in that kingdom arrangement?

All we need to do is go back to Eden where it all began, and ask what kind of life the Creator purposed for humankind in the beginning? Why are we here? Why did God prepare this planet so carefully and purposefully to not only accommodate life, but to make it a joyous experience?

Why are there no other planets in our solar system who have any life at all? We know of no other life anywhere else in the universe, but we do know that “extra terrestrials” exist because the Bible tells us about them. These life forms are not in material form but dwell in an invisible realm that humans cannot see or experience. “Extra terrestrial” simply means “not from this earth”. Angels are not from this earth and neither is God.

What do you imagine that they are?

As the Creator, God first made lifeforms in the invisible realm. These had no means to die unless they were eliminated from existence by the Creator himself. This means that even though these beings had the prospect of everlasting life, (having no natural cause of death) they were not immortal. He made humans the same way.

So what about those who were made “a little lower than the angels”?
Jehovah’s excursion into material creation, I see as an extension of his love for his spiritual creation. He had a beautiful family in the heavenly realm and for some reason, wanted to create material life as well.....not the same kind of life, but life nonetheless.

Sharing life is a beautiful thing, but the one thing God cannot give himself is love, loyalty and worship.....nor did he want to create robotic beings who had no choice but to serve him. He wanted his children to serve him out of love, of their own free will, as the one who gave them life, along with a beautiful place to live and a purpose to their being. If we are parents, then we can appreciate why he wanted respect and appreciation for being who he is, not just what he gives to his children. Alone, he was perfectly content needing nothing, but since love was his greatest quality, it needed expression.

It wasn’t until the creation of humans that trouble began. A glorious spirit creature who was assigned as a “covering cherub” in the garden of Eden, began to envy the worship these lower creatures would give to their God, so instead of dismissing these inappropriate thoughts, he dwelt on them until he plotted a way to steal the humans away from God and get them to worship him instead. (James 1:13-15)

Do you see how far back we have to go to understand the full picture? Humans also at first, had no natural means of death. The only way to experience death was to disobey God.....the devil did it first and influenced the humans to do that too, knowing full well what the consequences would be. Death then became the genetic inheritance of the entire human race.

Because of abusing this precious gift of free will, satan was the first one to oppose his God. What was he thinking?! He knew that his powerful Creator could crush him like an insect, but the devil was cunning. He did not challenge God’s power.....he challenged his Sovereignty....his right to set limits to the freedom he gave to all of his children. God could have eliminated the rebels right back in Eden but none of the issues raised by the devil would have been addressed.
Was God a liar? Would the humans die if they ate the fruit of the one tree that God claimed as his own personal property?
Was God withholding something from his children that they had a right to know? Did he have their best interests at heart, was was he merely power tripping?

Unless these issues were addressed in full, nothing would prevent another “satan” (opposer, adversary) from stepping into his place, so an object lesson was implemented and a record began to be written about the whole affair....that way, with all the issues settled, no other rebel would ever be able to spoil things for others by abusing their free will. All of God’s children were now on notice to observe how this scenario would play out. The first prophesy was given in Gen 3:15, but not until much later, would its full meaning be understood.

It started with an eviction. The first rebels were cast out of their paradise home and out into the untamed world outside the garden and the ground was now "cursed". No longer were they able to just pick the delicious fruit that God provided for them, but they now had to till unyielding soil to make enough flour to eke out an existence on “bread”. They felt shame over their naked bodies and tried to cover them up, but God stepped in and made long garments of skin for them. Not only would this be modest attire but it would also be protective in a harsh environment of “thorns and thistles”.

The history of God’s worshippers is an interesting read because of what it teaches us about our relationship with our Creator and who is trying to separate us from him by deception.
Men and women of faith down through history have shown us what it means to serve God in a world that is godless, hostile and often violent. Jesus helped us to understand why it is this way when the devil tried to tempt him after his baptism, confessing that “all the kingdoms of the world” had been “delivered” to him and that he could give ruling authority to anyone he pleased. (Luke 4:5-8)

So can I ask who it was that "delivered" the world's rulership over to the devil and why did he do it?
Why did Jesus have to be born as a human child, when spirit beings can simply materialize human form as they often did in their assignment as messengers?
What was the set price for redemption as it was taught in Israel? Can you explain how it works?
Because, if you can't, it means that you don't understand what Jesus' sacrifice meant for humankind, and what was achieved by implementing the Kingdom arrangement and the choosing of the elect.
We were never meant to go to heaven.....otherwise God would have put us there in the first place, like he did with his spirit sons.
 

Aunty Jane

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Keep reading in Romans 11:26-29
"and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret."

Which "Israel" is this referring to since it was Paul who identified the "Israel of God" as those who were disciples of Jesus Christ.....(Galatians 6:16)
You just don't get it do you?...or is it that you just don't want to?

Fleshly Israel was given back to the nations under satan's control...it is just another warring political entity like all the rest. They have blood on their hands. (Isaiag 1:15) What on earth would make you think God has any further interest in them? Like their faithless forefathers, they form alliances with nations whose worship they detest....hypocrites! (Matthew 23:13-15, 33-39)
 

RLT63

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"and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret."

Which "Israel" is this referring to since it was Paul who identified the "Israel of God" as those who were disciples of Jesus Christ.....(Galatians 6:16)
You just don't get it do you?...or is it that you just don't want to?

Fleshly Israel was given back to the nations under satan's control...it is just another warring political entity like all the rest. They have blood on their hands. (Isaiag 1:15) What on earth would make you think God has any further interest in them? Like their faithless forefathers, they form alliances with nations whose worship they detest....hypocrites! (Matthew 23:13-15, 33-39)
 

Aunty Jane

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Charles russell . that is who i meant . not russell nash . Looks like the adventists and jws all took root
from a deadly movement .
What makes you think so amigo? It was prophesied after all....

Are you familiar with the book of Daniel?
We are in the time of the end right now....do you believe this?

Daniel wrote his prophesies around 500 years before Jesus was born. But he was told to "seal up the book until the time of the end", when "abundant knowledge" would be made available and people would 'cleanse, whiten and refine' themselves based on this knowledge. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

The "great awakening" as it was came to be called, took place among many in the late 1800's....a groundswell of those people who were sick of Christendom's sanctimonious hypocrisy began exploring new ideas and new Bible discoveries published by those who undertook a special assignment to examine the Bible and to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" of God's word....even though it was unpopular with the masses. They had the experience of Jesus and his apostles to bolster the bold proclamation of their findings. Many people were ready for this and embraced it. Only those deeply entrenched in Christendom's doctrines and in the fear of Christendom's hellfire, remained stuck in that mire, too scared to extract themselves. But the command in Revelation 18:4-5 did not fall on deaf ears.

So, not all would undergo this cleansing....and would remain "wicked" in their willful ignorance. I see that you have identified the RCC as the beginning of the rot, but I am not sure what you have taken along, and what you have rejected from them? I see nothing worth retaining from their false doctrines, which includes polytheism, (multiple gods) immortality of the soul, and a burning eternal hell.

And I am wondering what there is about the KJV that you find so important? If you have never studied any other translation, how can you make such an assessment? The devil cannot alter the words of the Bible, but he can influence men to mistranslate them...which is why a study of the Greek is so important for Christian Bible students.

Are you a Bible student amigo?
 

amigo de christo

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What makes you think so amigo? It was prophesied after all....

Are you familiar with the book of Daniel?
We are in the time of the end right now....do you believe this?

Daniel wrote his prophesies around 500 years before Jesus was born. But he was told to "seal up the book until the time of the end", when "abundant knowledge" would be made available and people would 'cleanse, whiten and refine' themselves based on this knowledge. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

The "great awakening" as it was came to be called, took place among many in the late 1800's....a groundswell of those people who were sick of Christendom's sanctimonious hypocrisy began exploring new ideas and new Bible discoveries published by those who undertook a special assignment to examine the Bible and to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" of God's word....even though it was unpopular with the masses. They had the experience of Jesus and his apostles to bolster the bold proclamation of their findings. Many people were ready for this and embraced it. Only those deeply entrenched in Christendom's doctrines and in the fear of Christendom's hellfire, remained stuck in that mire, too scared to extract themselves. But the command in Revelation 18:4-5 did not fall on deaf ears.

So, not all would undergo this cleansing....and would remain "wicked" in their willful ignorance. I see that you have identified the RCC as the beginning of the rot, but I am not sure what you have taken along, and what you have rejected from them? I see nothing worth retaining from their false doctrines, which includes polytheism, (multiple gods) immortality of the soul, and a burning eternal hell.

And I am wondering what there is about the KJV that you find so important? If you have never studied any other translation, how can you make such an assessment? The devil cannot alter the words of the Bible, but he can influence men to mistranslate them...which is why a study of the Greek is so important for Christian Bible students.

Are you a Bible student amigo?
anyone can pull a date out to to fix their own message . Plus we better be on gaurd .
Better read deuteronomy chapter thirteen . EVEN if one prophesies , has a dream or a vision
and THAT VISION still comes to pass , Better watch out , GOD ALLOWS that . To see if we truly LOVE HIM .
False prophets can have dreams and visions and they can come to pass . Learn the WORD . The JW camp has deceived you all .
 
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Aunty Jane

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anyone can pull a date out to to fix their own message . Plus we better be on gaurd .
Better read deuteronomy chapter thirteen . EVEN if one prophesies , has a dream or a vision
and THAT VISION still comes to pass , Better watch out , GOD ALLOWS that . To see if we truly LOVE HIM .
False prophets can have dreams and visions and they can come to pass . Learn the WORD . The JW camp has deceived you all .
Can you tell me how or why you think that is true....what if he has deceived you? Would you know? Who are your brethren amigo? With whom do you worship?
 

amigo de christo

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What makes you think so amigo? It was prophesied after all....

Are you familiar with the book of Daniel?
We are in the time of the end right now....do you believe this?

Daniel wrote his prophesies around 500 years before Jesus was born. But he was told to "seal up the book until the time of the end", when "abundant knowledge" would be made available and people would 'cleanse, whiten and refine' themselves based on this knowledge. (Daniel 12:4, 9-10)

The "great awakening" as it was came to be called, took place among many in the late 1800's....a groundswell of those people who were sick of Christendom's sanctimonious hypocrisy began exploring new ideas and new Bible discoveries published by those who undertook a special assignment to examine the Bible and to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" of God's word....even though it was unpopular with the masses. They had the experience of Jesus and his apostles to bolster the bold proclamation of their findings. Many people were ready for this and embraced it. Only those deeply entrenched in Christendom's doctrines and in the fear of Christendom's hellfire, remained stuck in that mire, too scared to extract themselves. But the command in Revelation 18:4-5 did not fall on deaf ears.

So, not all would undergo this cleansing....and would remain "wicked" in their willful ignorance. I see that you have identified the RCC as the beginning of the rot, but I am not sure what you have taken along, and what you have rejected from them? I see nothing worth retaining from their false doctrines, which includes polytheism, (multiple gods) immortality of the soul, and a burning eternal hell.

And I am wondering what there is about the KJV that you find so important? If you have never studied any other translation, how can you make such an assessment? The devil cannot alter the words of the Bible, but he can influence men to mistranslate them...which is why a study of the Greek is so important for Christian Bible students.

Are you a Bible student amigo?
Its the ONLY book i read . My advice is we should have stuck to JUST IT and not fallen for many who have arisen
and decieved many . I stick to the BIBLE ALONE as the ONLY BOOK to read and to trust in . JWS cannot say that
THEY changed It to suit their own agendas .
The man acted like he was given knowledge of the greek , YET all he was doing was changing certain parts of the bible
to make it say WHAT HE BELIEVED . AND they forgot to take out timothy chapter three verse sixteen . OOOPS
Guess the greek man must have mis translated his own bible . He was a fraud and i am so sorrowful for folks
that got trapped into their deceptions .
 
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amigo de christo

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Can you tell me how or why you think that is true....what if he has deceived you? Would you know? Who are your brethren amigo? With whom do you worship?
I fellowship with those who dont try and change the bible , who dont try and say the KJV is corrupt and invent another version
to suit their own beleifs . I fellowship with those who simply love the truth and dont try and change it for an agenda .
I was never raised in any church . I learned just that bible by the grace of GOD .
And it sure didnt take long when i started visiting churches to realize , OH DEAR they been decieved .
You assume somehow i was led into their teachings . WHEN IN TRUTH i never sat under a one of them .
I simply was changed by GOD , Andwas given a heart that loves the truth and right into the bible i went
and have stayed by that same grace reading it daily for hours . They lied to you ,
just like mormons lied to their own , just like THE CC did to their own and so many more i cannot list the names of all .
We need an all out return to the simplicity in CHRIST , back to the bible . Not to men who try and invent new bibles
that support their own decieved ideals . And not to churches that may say the BIBLE IS GOOD and HOLY ,
YET THEY TWIST IT unto their own destruction . And teach only small parts of it , TO SUPPORT their own lies .
JUST read it for yourself my dear aunty . GOD is with the lambs . We can learn as we need to . Dont need to sit under
men who decieve . There still is a remnant though . On a good note there are still true beleivers scattered here and there .
AND THEY LOVE THE TRUTH of GOD , OF HIS eternal WORD and words . THEY wont budge to the ways of men
they will not conform to the delusion of the all inclusive unity lie . WHICH i might add
the watch tower , in part has already done just that . THEY slowly pumping the same ideals right into your own watchtower .
be not LIKE the catholics and scores of protestants who make their leaders their pope and their god .
they deceiving many folks now . ITS ENTERED INTO all faiths now , all denominations . ONLY
Most folks think MY Watchtower or my popes or my high and mighty protestant leaders , ARE OF GOD and TEACH TRUTH .
I GOT NEWS , OH no they aint they decieving the peoples by groves . WE BETTER KNOW GOD
we BETTER KNOW CHRIST and that means GET IN THAT BIBLE .
 
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Aunty Jane

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Its the ONLY book i read . My advice is we should have stuck to JUST IT and not fallen for many who have arisen
and decieved many . I stick to the BIBLE ALONE as the ONLY BOOK to read and to trust in . JWS cannot say that
THEY changed It to suit their own agendas .
Can you tell me what we changed, amigo? Do you have the evidence for your accusations, or have you just believed what others have told you? I read the Bible very carefully and have done for the last 50 years....and none of what I read agreed with a single thing that the Roman Catholic Church taught. Yet I find what you believe to be strangely in agreement with them. Can I ask why?
The man acted like he was given knowledge of the greek , YET all he was doing was changing certain parts of the bible
What man is this? Please tell me....this is hearsay....I am disappointed in you. Do you believe everything people tell you? What if you had lived in Jesus’ day? Would you have believed all that was said about him by his opposers?
to make it say WHAT HE BELIEVED . AND they forgot to take out timothy chapter three verse sixteen . OOOPS
Guess the greek man must have mis translated his own bible . He was a fraud and i am so sorrowful for folks
that got trapped into their deception 2 Tim 3:16 says the same in every translation.....
2 Timothy 3:16...
“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (KJV)

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness”. (ESV)

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (NASB)

“All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness” (NET)

Tell me what you think “breathed out by God” means in plain English?

The NWT renders that verse.....
“All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness”
Isn’t it shocking!!!! :r.u.n: Such a digression!!!!
It makes that verse say something completely different.....does it? Seriously....? :ummm:
 

RLT63

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"and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with respect to the good news, they are enemies for your sakes; but with respect to God’s choosing, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret."

Which "Israel" is this referring to since it was Paul who identified the "Israel of God" as those who were disciples of Jesus Christ.....(Galatians 6:16)
You just don't get it do you?...or is it that you just don't want to?

Fleshly Israel was given back to the nations under satan's control...it is just another warring political entity like all the rest. They have blood on their hands. (Isaiag 1:15) What on earth would make you think God has any further interest in them? Like their faithless forefathers, they form alliances with nations whose worship they detest....hypocrites! (Matthew 23:13-15, 33-39)
If this is spiritual Israel how do you determine who is in what tribe?
 

Ronald Nolette

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Please let me say up front that I do not doubt your sincerity for a moment.....what I doubt is your grasp of the most important sacrifice that was ever made in the history of mankind. How was Jesus a "ransom in exchange for many"?

Here is why I think you have missed the whole point.....I apologise for the length of this, but details are important to me....I ask questions because they demand answers.

Why was Jesus’ sacrifice needed in the first place? What did his death accomplish in the big picture?
Why was God’s kingdom implemented with Jesus as king? And why did he need to take some "from among mankind" to act as 'kings and priests' in that kingdom arrangement?

All we need to do is go back to Eden where it all began, and ask what kind of life the Creator purposed for humankind in the beginning? Why are we here? Why did God prepare this planet so carefully and purposefully to not only accommodate life, but to make it a joyous experience?

Why are there no other planets in our solar system who have any life at all? We know of no other life anywhere else in the universe, but we do know that “extra terrestrials” exist because the Bible tells us about them. These life forms are not in material form but dwell in an invisible realm that humans cannot see or experience. “Extra terrestrial” simply means “not from this earth”. Angels are not from this earth and neither is God.

What do you imagine that they are?

As the Creator, God first made lifeforms in the invisible realm. These had no means to die unless they were eliminated from existence by the Creator himself. This means that even though these beings had the prospect of everlasting life, (having no natural cause of death) they were not immortal. He made humans the same way.

So what about those who were made “a little lower than the angels”?
Jehovah’s excursion into material creation, I see as an extension of his love for his spiritual creation. He had a beautiful family in the heavenly realm and for some reason, wanted to create material life as well.....not the same kind of life, but life nonetheless.

Sharing life is a beautiful thing, but the one thing God cannot give himself is love, loyalty and worship.....nor did he want to create robotic beings who had no choice but to serve him. He wanted his children to serve him out of love, of their own free will, as the one who gave them life, along with a beautiful place to live and a purpose to their being. If we are parents, then we can appreciate why he wanted respect and appreciation for being who he is, not just what he gives to his children. Alone, he was perfectly content needing nothing, but since love was his greatest quality, it needed expression.

It wasn’t until the creation of humans that trouble began. A glorious spirit creature who was assigned as a “covering cherub” in the garden of Eden, began to envy the worship these lower creatures would give to their God, so instead of dismissing these inappropriate thoughts, he dwelt on them until he plotted a way to steal the humans away from God and get them to worship him instead. (James 1:13-15)

Do you see how far back we have to go to understand the full picture? Humans also at first, had no natural means of death. The only way to experience death was to disobey God.....the devil did it first and influenced the humans to do that too, knowing full well what the consequences would be. Death then became the genetic inheritance of the entire human race.

Because of abusing this precious gift of free will, satan was the first one to oppose his God. What was he thinking?! He knew that his powerful Creator could crush him like an insect, but the devil was cunning. He did not challenge God’s power.....he challenged his Sovereignty....his right to set limits to the freedom he gave to all of his children. God could have eliminated the rebels right back in Eden but none of the issues raised by the devil would have been addressed.
Was God a liar? Would the humans die if they ate the fruit of the one tree that God claimed as his own personal property?
Was God withholding something from his children that they had a right to know? Did he have their best interests at heart, was was he merely power tripping?

Unless these issues were addressed in full, nothing would prevent another “satan” (opposer, adversary) from stepping into his place, so an object lesson was implemented and a record began to be written about the whole affair....that way, with all the issues settled, no other rebel would ever be able to spoil things for others by abusing their free will. All of God’s children were now on notice to observe how this scenario would play out. The first prophesy was given in Gen 3:15, but not until much later, would its full meaning be understood.

It started with an eviction. The first rebels were cast out of their paradise home and out into the untamed world outside the garden and the ground was now "cursed". No longer were they able to just pick the delicious fruit that God provided for them, but they now had to till unyielding soil to make enough flour to eke out an existence on “bread”. They felt shame over their naked bodies and tried to cover them up, but God stepped in and made long garments of skin for them. Not only would this be modest attire but it would also be protective in a harsh environment of “thorns and thistles”.

The history of God’s worshippers is an interesting read because of what it teaches us about our relationship with our Creator and who is trying to separate us from him by deception.
Men and women of faith down through history have shown us what it means to serve God in a world that is godless, hostile and often violent. Jesus helped us to understand why it is this way when the devil tried to tempt him after his baptism, confessing that “all the kingdoms of the world” had been “delivered” to him and that he could give ruling authority to anyone he pleased. (Luke 4:5-8)

So can I ask who it was that "delivered" the world's rulership over to the devil and why did he do it?
Why did Jesus have to be born as a human child, when spirit beings can simply materialize human form as they often did in their assignment as messengers?
What was the set price for redemption as it was taught in Israel? Can you explain how it works?
Because, if you can't, it means that you don't understand what Jesus' sacrifice meant for humankind, and what was achieved by implementing the Kingdom arrangement and the choosing of the elect.
We were never meant to go to heaven.....otherwise God would have put us there in the first place, like he did with his spirit sons.
Thank you for all these questions. However none of them are peretinent to why Jesus died for mankind.

Jesus died to pay for mankinds sins. Period. As it is written: He became sin, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus became our sin and God punished Him in our place. Then He conquered death in His own body when He physically rose from the dead. This and only this can save a person from eternal damnation.
 
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Aunty Jane

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If this is spiritual Israel how do you determine who is in what tribe?
Since it is God who chooses those who will rule with Christ in heaven, the individuals chosen are entirely up to him. Can we not trust him to make his choices for his own reasons? What advantage is there to claim to be part of spiritual Israel if you have fooled yourself into believing that all Christians are of that calling?
Even in the first century, not all who became disciples were so “called”. (1 Corinthians 1:2, Hebrews 3:1)
Not everyone can become a king and a priest because their positions are useless unless there are subjects to rule and sinners for whom to perform their duties?

Planet Earth was never designed to be a training ground for heaven.....in the beginning, there was never any mention of humans living anywhere but here in their mortal flesh....forever. You see, everlasting life on earth was what God offered humanity in the first instance....all they needed to do was obey their Creator and everlasting life with no sickness, suffering or death was guaranteed. This is not immortality, which, for humans, was never in the original plan.

The fleshly nation of Israel, who to this day still deny that Jesus was the Christ, no longer have any part in Jehovah’s kingdom. Individuals from the Jewish nation can certainly become disciples of Jesus, but even Messianic Jews refuse to bear the title “Christian”.

The Jews are a proud and stubborn people...and always have been. Their record in the scriptures serves as a clear example of how NOT to serve Jehovah. Yet on the occasions when they did knuckle under and repent, the blessings he showered on them are an indication to us how beneficial it is to just do as we are told. Their repeated disobedience and unfaithfulness resulted in often severe punishments, which precipitated the repentance. They never learned from past experience, and so were doomed to repeat their mistakes. “There is nothing new under the sun”, Solomon said.....and he was right.

Any today who believe that they can behave in the same way as Israel did, and step over the line....are in for a rude shock.
 

RLT63

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Since it is God who chooses those who will rule with Christ in heaven, the individuals chosen are entirely up to him. Can we not trust him to make his choices for his own reasons? What advantage is there to claim to be part of spiritual Israel if you have fooled yourself into believing that all Christians are of that calling?
Even in the first century, not all who became disciples were so “called”. (1 Corinthians 1:2, Hebrews 3:1)
Not everyone can become a king and a priest because their positions are useless unless there are subjects to rule and sinners for whom to perform their duties?

Planet Earth was never designed to be a training ground for heaven.....in the beginning, there was never any mention of humans living anywhere but here in their mortal flesh....forever. You see, everlasting life on earth was what God offered humanity in the first instance....all they needed to do was obey their Creator and everlasting life with no sickness, suffering or death was guaranteed. This is not immortality, which, for humans, was never in the original plan.

The fleshly nation of Israel, who to this day still deny that Jesus was the Christ, no longer have any part in Jehovah’s kingdom. Individuals from the Jewish nation can certainly become disciples of Jesus, but even Messianic Jews refuse to bear the title “Christian”.

The Jews are a proud and stubborn people...and always have been. Their record in the scriptures serves as a clear example of how NOT to serve Jehovah. Yet on the occasions when they did knuckle under and repent, the blessings he showered on them are an indication to us how beneficial it is to just do as we are told. Their repeated disobedience and unfaithfulness resulted in often severe punishments, which precipitated the repentance. They never learned from past experience, and so were doomed to repeat their mistakes. “There is nothing new under the sun”, Solomon said.....and he was right.

Any today who believe that they can behave in the same way as Israel did, and step over the line....are in for a rude shock.
This doesn’t explain why God would pick 12,000 from each tribe and name the tribes if this is only spiritual.