A serious questions for the Jehovah's Witnesses on these threads.

[The Learner]

"But quickened - Made alive - ζοωποιηθεὶς zoōpoiētheis. This does not mean "kept alive," but "made alive; recalled to life; reanimated." The word is never used in the sense of maintained alive, or preserved alive. Compare the following places, which are the only ones in which it occurs in the New Testament: John 5:21 (twice); John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:36, 1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Timothy 6:13; 1 Peter 3:18; in all which it is rendered "quickened, quicken, quickeneth;" 1 Corinthians 15:22, "be made alive;"
...
See Biblical Repos., April, 1845, p. 269. See also Passow, and Robinson, Lexicon. The sense, then, cannot be that, in reference to his soul or spirit, he was preserved alive when his body died, but that there was some agency or power restoring him to life, or reanimating him after he was dead.
...
ζωοποιέω does not mean “to preserve alive,” as several commentators explain, e.g. Bellarmin (de Christo, lib. iv. cap. 13), Hottinger, Steiger, and Güder;—this idea, in the Old as in the New Testament, being expressed by ζωογονεῖν and other words (see Zezschwitz on this passage); but “to make alive” (de Wette, Wiesinger, Weiss, Zezschwitz, Schott, Köhler,[200] Hofmann, and others);
"

1 Peter 3:18 Commentaries: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

 

[Aunty Jane]

The sad part is, the JW's have been brainwashed to believe that God destroyed Jesus body, and that He "manufactured" bodies as needed to prove He had risen from the dead. They have even been brainwashed to accept a false definition of what resurrection means, all based on a misreading of Peter.

Please save your sadness for yourself and your fellow believers.....it means that you think your own beliefs could not possibly be false....but could they? Is the devil that good at promoting his lies?
I will let Christ judge both of us...didn’t Jesus say that the judgment we give others....will form the basis of our own judgement? Be careful that your own condemnations do not come back to bite you....

Never mind that Jesus said to the Pharisees, if they destroyed His body, in three days He would raise it up! Aunty Jane came up with a good one- the body Jesus raised was the church! I had no idea the Pharisees destroyed teh church before it was even born.

I have already given you an alternative rendering that is in full agreement with what the Bible actually says....not what you want it to say. Jesus was speaking about the future of his “body”. The Pharisees were clueless about how satan was using them to murder God’s son. The apostles (the foundation members of his body) along with those who believed them, would feel the brunt of their persecution after Jesus’ death. Jesus warned us about that (John 15:18-21)

Jesus said that in three days he would raise the temple of his “body”......he was talking about “the body” that make up his bride....they are the temple of God.
1 Cor 3:16-17....KJV..
“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”

The fact is that the scriptures tell us that Christ is the High Priest serving in that spiritual Temple. It is not an earthly Temple but a heavenly one....the type of which was the Temple and priesthood in earthly Jerusalem.
Can Christ serve as a High Priest to his God, if he is God himself?

Upon his resurrection, Jesus’ mission was accomplished. He would return to heaven in spirit form to complete what he was sent to do, opening the way for his “body” (his bride) to follow later. The barrier to his re-entering heaven was his flesh....”flesh” cannot exist in the spirit realm....for obvious reasons. (1 Cor 15:50)

“New Jerusalem” identified by the apostle John in his Revelation, is seen coming down from heaven as the “bride” of Christ bringing the rulership of God’s kingdom for a thousand years, to earthly subjects. (Rev 21:1-5) God ‘spreads his tent over these ones’ bringing them under his care and protection.

The majority of these earthly residents are raised in the flesh as opposed to those of the elect who raised “in the spirit” as Jesus was......(1 Pet 3:18; John 5:28-29)

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”. (Romans 6:2-5).......
The elect experience the “first resurrection” to heaven where they will take up positions as “kings and priests” (Rev 20:6) to bring redeemed mankind back to God‘s first purpose in Eden.....the first paradise was lost.....God made sure that it would be restored. (Isaiah 55:11; Rev 21-2-4)

Only those “drawn” by the Father will come to understand his truth. (John 6:44, 65) The rest will be left to their delusion....so the question is.....who has the truth and who has the delusion? According to Jesus it is the confident “many”.....not the hated “few”. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) What group do you belong to? Jesus knows.

Won’t it be interesting to see who Jesus rejects? Only then will we all know for sure.

 

[Aunty Jane]

"But quickened - Made alive - ζοωποιηθεὶς zoōpoiētheis. This does not mean "kept alive," but "made alive; recalled to life; reanimated." The word is never used in the sense of maintained alive, or preserved alive. Compare the following places, which are the only ones in which it occurs in the New Testament: John 5:21 (twice); John 6:63; Romans 4:17; Romans 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:36, 1 Corinthians 15:45; 1 Timothy 6:13; 1 Peter 3:18; in all which it is rendered "quickened, quicken, quickeneth;" 1 Corinthians 15:22, "be made alive;"

A slow "lerarner" again...?
You have just confirmed what I have been saying all along...except that no one uses archaic English anymore so unless you "translate" what it means in modern English, who would know what was said? What is the purpose of a translation after all...?

Christ was "dead" for three days, confined to his tomb just as Jonah was confined in the belly of the fish....Jesus said so. (Matt 12:30-41)
He was not alive anywhere because the Jews had no belief in an immortal soul.....there is no such thing in their scripture. Death is contrasted with life (Deut 30:19) and these are opposites....not "heaven or hell". The Jews had no such notion about life after death. That was adopted later from platonic Greek ideas. Christendom fell for it too...it is a satanic falsehood designed to perpetuate the devil's first lie...."you surely will not die".
This infers that you go on living after death in another form in another place.....but I cannot find a single scripture that says so in the correct context.

See Biblical Repos., April, 1845, p. 269. See also Passow, and Robinson, Lexicon. The sense, then, cannot be that, in reference to his soul or spirit, he was preserved alive when his body died, but that there was some agency or power restoring him to life, or reanimating him after he was dead.

So you assume that the "soul" and the "spirit" are one and the same thing? They are not.

Let me give you a quote from the New Catholic Encyclopedia on the meaning of the word "soul" in the Hebrew scriptures....

• “Nepes [neʹphesh] is a term of far greater extension than our ‘soul,’ signifying life (Ex 21.23; Deut 19.21) and its various vital manifestations: breathing (Gen 35.18; Jb 41.21), blood [Gen 9.4; Dt 12.23; Ps 140(141).8], desire (2 Sam 3.21; Prov 23.2)....
  The Soul in the O[ld] T[estament] means not a part of man, but the whole man—man as a living being."

"rûaḥ" (spirit) OTOH means...
"wind, breath, mind, spirit..."
So when it says in Genesis 2:7 (KJV)....."And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.".....you notice that the man "became a living soul" when nGod started him breathing.....he was not 'given' a soul, but with the "breath" (or spirit) of life" he came to life as a "soul". It is not a separate entity that escapes from the body at death....no scripture says so.

A "soul" is therefore any creature that breathes. Animals in Genesis are called "souls" and they have the same "spirit" or breath, and die exactly the same death as we do, when breathing stops.

Solomon lamented that we humans have no superiority over the animals in death....
"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." (Eccl 3:19-20 KJV)

Your favored translation...not mine.

The "soul" and the "spirit" have two entirely different meaning and you wish to follow the beliefs of those who think they are the same.....big mistake.

ζωοποιέω does not mean “to preserve alive,” as several commentators explain, e.g. Bellarmin (de Christo, lib. iv. cap. 13), Hottinger, Steiger, and Güder;—this idea, in the Old as in the New Testament, being expressed by ζωογονεῖν and other words (see Zezschwitz on this passage); but “to make alive” (de Wette, Wiesinger, Weiss, Zezschwitz, Schott, Köhler,[200] Hofmann, and others);
"
1 Peter 3:18 Commentaries: For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

"To make alive".....that is indeed what resurrection means....but for many it will not be in the body that they had previously and not until a long time after their death.....a spirit body is provided for the elect so that they can dwell in the presence of God without fear that it will consume them. Bodies of flesh are confined to the earth, where all the means to sustain their lives indefinitely are abundantly supplied.
Moses was told "no man may see me and yet live". Which is why John could say in John 1:18..."No man hath seen God at any time".....it would kill them.

Did you not read in Genesis 3:22-24......
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." (KJV)

Do you see there that God also provided the means for humans to enjoy unending life right here in their mortal flesh....? Access to "the tree of life" was conditional however, because after their disobedient act, the first humans were evicted from their paradise home to eke out an existence on cursed ground.....and access to the "tree of life" would never be available to sinful humans.

So from my studies, your whole scenario is flawed, and completely unsupported by the entirety of scripture.
Jesus was Jewish and would have taught his disciples from the Hebrew writings. It was the only scripture they had. (2 Tim 3:16-17) And it was not the teachings of the Pharisees that Jesus promoted to his disciples.....but only scripture...."it is written"....

Who are emulating the 'Pharisees' in our day? The hypocritical teachers of Christendom?....or the hated minority who actually follow the teachings of the Christ? We all have to decide that for ourselves. Just remember John 6:65....

 

[Serzxvr]

Please tell me?
I can't write to the topic.
Yours faithfully.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"The starting-point of his after-suffering career was his being quickened. His being put to death was in the flesh; i.e. on the side of his nature by which he was connected with earth and had a mortal existence. His being quickened is contrasted in being not in the flesh, but in the spirit; i.e. on the side of his nature by which he was above earth and had an immortal existence. At death there takes place a separation of soul and body(James 2:26 added by me). During the time Christ's body was in the grave his soul was in Hades. It was Peter who showed himself alive to this important fact in his comments on the words of the sixteenth psalm, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell," in his sermon on the day of Pentecost. The expression of the fact in the Apostles' Creed is that he "descended into Hades." By "Hades" is denoted the invisible world, with the special association of the world of the dead. Between our death and the resurrection we are to be in art incomplete state in so far as soul and body are not to be united.

...

(3) Being quickened, he was also active in Hades. "In which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, "The Pulpit Commentaries

Now you are just going to confuse them with facts. Merry Christmas.

 

[Aunty Jane]

"The starting-point of his after-suffering career was his being quickened. His being put to death was in the flesh; i.e. on the side of his nature by which he was connected with earth and had a mortal existence. His being quickened is contrasted in being not in the flesh, but in the spirit; i.e. on the side of his nature by which he was above earth and had an immortal existence. At death there takes place a separation of soul and body(James 2:26 added by me). During the time Christ's body was in the grave his soul was in Hades. It was Peter who showed himself alive to this important fact in his comments on the words of the sixteenth psalm, "Thou wilt not leave my soul in hell," in his sermon on the day of Pentecost. The expression of the fact in the Apostles' Creed is that he "descended into Hades." By "Hades" is denoted the invisible world, with the special association of the world of the dead. Between our death and the resurrection we are to be in art incomplete state in so far as soul and body are not to be united.

...

(3) Being quickened, he was also active in Hades. "In which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison, "The Pulpit Commentaries

I just wanted to point out a few things in this post because it deserves attention all by itself.....

Your highlighted portion shows that you have no understanding of the difference between “body, soul and spirit” as they are related in the entirety of the scriptures.

Here you say....”At death there takes place a separation of soul and body (James 2:26 added by me). During the time Christ's body was in the grave his soul was in Hades.

OK...so what is James actually saying here that you added as further proof of your position...?
“Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”

Does it say that “the body without the soul is dead”? NO! It says “the body without spirit is dead”.

As has already been pointed out to you, and as @Ronald Nolette has also ignored......the “soul” and the “spirit” are not interchangeable terms.....both mean entirely different things. Which, if you were genuine Bible students, instead of puppets for Christendom's version of events, you would already know.

The “spirit” is what animates a body to breathe (like Adam).....and with “the breath (spirit) of life”, gasped by a newborn, a “soul” (a living person or creature) is born. The word simply means “a breather”....it isn’t something invisible that lives inside of us....it is the breath (spirit) that keeps the soul alive.
God said that death is the end of life (Genesis 3:19).....only the devil said it wasn't....so who lied?

You have a false premise to begin with. Go back to the Hebrew Scriptures and see that the ancient Jews did not believe in immortality of the soul because their Bible never mentions such a thing. It was adopted later from platonic Greek notions. How could you not know this?

So quoting Psalm16:10 from the KJV, It reads....
“10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”

Now wait a minute....how is God leaving Jesus soul in "hell"? Where is this "hell" (hades)?....I guess that depends on what you believe "hell" to be.....according to the Septuagint, "hades" is the Greek equivalent to "sheol" which the Jewish Tanakh renders as "the grave".

So if "hades" is "the grave" and Jesus was Jewish, what did it mean that he went there? He died and went to his grave.....its really as simple as that. This is what Peter understood when he quoted Psalm 16:10......God did not leave his body in the grave to decompose.....he took Christ's sacrificed body away, and gave him a new spirit body in order for him to return to heaven. His flesh and blood was sacrificed...he didn't take it back.

And this...."Being quickened, he was also active in Hades. "In which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."
What nonsense! There is no activity in sheol/hades.

Ecclesiastes 9: 5, 10.....KJV...
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . .Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, [sheol] whither thou goest."

Sheol is the grave, where we all go....there is no activity in that place....."the dead know not anything"....there is 'no work...device...knowledge...or wisdom in the grave'. The "soul" that rests there has died. (Ezekiel 18:4) That person will not see life again until the resurrection.....this is what Jews believed....the immortal soul and misunderstanding of the spirit in man is a pagan adoption.

If Jesus went to preach to "the spirits in prison"......then, who were they?

1 Peter 3:18-20 Holman....
"For Christ also suffered for sins once for all,
the righteous for the unrighteous,
that He might bring you to God,
after being put to death in the fleshly realm
but made alive in the spiritual realm.

19 In that state He also went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison 20 who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people—were saved through water."

This is clearly and correctly interpreted....Jesus was "put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm"
And whilst he was in that state (in a spiritual body) he went to the spirit realm to proclaim a judgment message to "the spirits in prison" who were said to be disobedient angels when God was waiting patiently for Noah to build his ark. This is after his resurrection....Jesus was confined to his tomb for three days, remember?

You have it all so muddled and complicated when its simplicity is so much more instructive. You never tell the whole story....probably because you have never heard the whole story....

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The “spirit” is what animates a body to breathe (like Adam).....and with “the breath (spirit) of life”, gasped by a newborn, a “soul” (a living person or creature) is born. The word simply means “a breather”....it isn’t something invisible that lives inside of us....it is the breath (spirit) that keeps the soul alive.
God said that death is the end of life (Genesis 3:19).....only the devil said it wasn't....so who lied?

Please. You regurgitate what eh watchtower orders you to and then blame folloers of Jesus for doin ghtat.

Teh spirit is not simply breath!

Ephesians 2

King James Version

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So do you believe you were a corpse before you were made alive because you were dead?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

pneuma, psuche and soma.

The spirit of man is that immaterial part of man that can fellowship with God. That died in the garden when Adam and Eve fell. God says the day they ate, they would die, and they did not die physically for hundreds of years.

The soul of man is that immaterial part of man that makes each person a unique individual- our "personality. This is immortal

Teh body of man is simply the flesh container that carries the soul and spirit.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Please. You regurgitate what eh watchtower orders you to and then blame folloers of Jesus for doin ghtat.

Teh spirit is not simply breath!

With every post you demonstrate how little you understand scripture....you just regurgitate what your own teachers have taught you.

The "spirit" in man is what causes him to breathe.....it is the "breath" or "spirit" of life that God used to start Adam's life as a soul. He was not a "soul" without breath....he "became" a soul when he started breathing. (Genesis 2:7)
You cannot separate the body from the soul.....because a soul without breath is dead....just as a body without spirit is dead also......the spirit or breath is what keeps a soul alive. There never was an immaterial part of man that left the body at death.....it was satan who said "you surely will not die" and here you have the perpetuation of his first lie.

Ephesians 2

King James Version​

The worst Bible translation for any English speaker in today’s world.....it’s a dinosaur now declared extinct. Who speaks this language today?

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;​

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So do you believe you were a corpse before you were made alive because you were dead?

LOL....what does all that archaic English actually say to the modern reader?

Lets take verses 1 to 3...in a modern English Bible...
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (ESV)

Do I believe that I was a corpse before I became a believer....I might as well have been if I was dead to God. There are many "corpses" walking around in the world today....they just don't know it.

So, what is this saying? That the ruler of this world (satan the devil) once owned us too if we conducted ourselves like the world that he controls. The "spirit" that pervades the world is that of "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience"....it is the spirit of disobedience that we see everywhere in satan's world....and the majority of people alive today exhibit this spirit or attitude....the walking dead.

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

pneuma, psuche and soma.

The spirit of man is that immaterial part of man that can fellowship with God. That died in the garden when Adam and Eve fell. God says the day they ate, they would die, and they did not die physically for hundreds of years.

Again you show such ignorance of the scriptures you quote....this is speaking collectively of Christ's followers, not individually assuming that their "whole spirit, soul and body" were actually saying what you think is being said there. It is the body of Christ, and the spirit they show is one of faith and obedience to Christ's teachings....the soul or life of the whole congregation of Christ's followers was to be "preserved blameless" until Christ's coming.....which was unknown to them at that time....and here we are almost 2000 years on, and we are presently waiting for Christ's momentous return as judge of us all, (which world events indicate will be soon.)

The soul of man is that immaterial part of man that makes each person a unique individual- our "personality. This is immortal

Teh body of man is simply the flesh container that carries the soul and spirit.

Nonsense....no Jew believed that....this is Christendom's doctrines talking. The ancient Jews did not believe in immortality of the soul because they knew that the soul is mortal. (Ezek 18:4) The "soul" that was Adam died and 'returned to the dust' just as he was told would happen. (Genesis 3:19) Adam's death meant that Adam ceased to live and because he was perfect when he sinned, it was his one act of perfect and deliberate disobedience for which there was only one penalty, clearly stated.....no 'heaven or hell' just death, and a return to the dust out of which he was created.

Platonic Greek ideas influenced the later apostate Jews and that idea also infiltrated Christendom.....Jesus never taught that the soul was immortal.
Please find me these two words, (immortal soul) side by side in any passage of scripture.

Jesus was Jewish, he would have taught what Jewish scripture told him was the truth......God was, after all, its author.
He taught resurrection, not a continuation of life in another realm at death......the Hebrew scriptures told of a peaceful "sleep" for the dead who would awaken at his command. (John 5:28-29) And, since he is the one who will perform all resurrections, (either to heaven for his elect, or to earth for his subjects,) I think Jesus knows what God taught him to speak.

 

[The Learner]

Please. You regurgitate what eh watchtower orders you to and then blame folloers of Jesus for doin ghtat.

Teh spirit is not simply breath!

Ephesians 2​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So do you believe you were a corpse before you were made alive because you were dead?

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

pneuma, psuche and soma.

The spirit of man is that immaterial part of man that can fellowship with God. That died in the garden when Adam and Eve fell. God says the day they ate, they would die, and they did not die physically for hundreds of years.

The soul of man is that immaterial part of man that makes each person a unique individual- our "personality. This is immortal

Teh body of man is simply the flesh container that carries the soul and spirit.

Continuing where you left off friend.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Acts 13:2
King James Version
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

 

[The Learner]

Romans 8:26

King James Version

​

26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Continuing where you left off friend.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Acts 13:2
King James Version
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

So as the JW's here are so anal about pneuma being breath, I guess they think god is a puff of wind!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

With every post you demonstrate how little you understand scripture....you just regurgitate what your own teachers have taught you.

The "spirit" in man is what causes him to breathe.....it is the "breath" or "spirit" of life that God used to start Adam's life as a soul. He was not a "soul" without breath....he "became" a soul when he started breathing. (Genesis 2:7)
You cannot separate the body from the soul.....because a soul without breath is dead....just as a body without spirit is dead also......the spirit or breath is what keeps a soul alive. There never was an immaterial part of man that left the body at death.....it was satan who said "you surely will not die" and here you have the perpetuation of his first lie.

That is what the watchtower teaches you , relying solely on OT understanding.

But Paul blessed indiviuals body, soul and spirit.

If you are so hung up on spirit=breath then to you God is a puff of wind? For He is just pneuma too. Yes until god breathed into Adam He was just a body. It is when God breathed that Adam became a living being with a soul and spirit.

Paul called us dead in sins until we were made alive by Jesus. So am I writing to a corpse now?

The worst Bible translation for any English speaker in today’s world.....it’s a dinosaur now declared extinct. Who speaks this language today?

Still the Words best seller though. But as you cannot rebut the truth, you must attack the methods used to show you truth.

Do I believe that I was a corpse before I became a believer....I might as well have been if I was dead to God. There are many "corpses" walking around in the world today....they just don't know it.

Nice evasive answer that doesn't answer anything. You are just playing word games to avoid answering. The Bible says you were dead- not as AJ said " I might has well have been".

Nonsense....no Jew believed that....this is Christendom's doctrines talking. The ancient Jews did not believe in immortality of the soul because they knew that the soul is mortal. (Ezek 18:4) The "soul" that was Adam died and 'returned to the dust' just as he was told would happen. (Genesis 3:19) Adam's death meant that Adam ceased to live and because he was perfect when he sinned, it was his one act of perfect and deliberate disobedience for which there was only one penalty, clearly stated.....no 'heaven or hell' just death, and a return to the dust out of which he was created.

Wrong! Only the group called the Sadducees. If you bothered to look at Jewish history
you would know they believed it.

When Jesus told the account of Lazarus and the rich man- The average crowd and the Pharisees knew exactly and literally what He spoke of.

Platonic Greek ideas influenced the later apostate Jews and that idea also infiltrated Christendom.....Jesus never taught that the soul was immortal.
Please find me these two words, (immortal soul) side by side in any passage of scripture.

So you hang belief on two particular words appearing side by side? Find me Jehovah's witness side by side in Scripture.

Jesus was Jewish, he would have taught what Jewish scripture told him was the truth......God was, after all, its author.
He taught resurrection, not a continuation of life in another realm at death......the Hebrew scriptures told of a peaceful "sleep" for the dead who would awaken at his command. (John 5:28-29) And, since he is the one who will perform all resurrections, (either to heaven for his elect, or to earth for his subjects,) I think Jesus knows what God taught him to speak.

So sad that you cannot recognize that Jesus spoke of physical death as sleep.

What is truly tragic is that you use the word resurrection for all people in the way it is defined, a rising of the body from teh dead, but yet when it comes to Jesus- you accept teh Watchtowers redefinition of resurrection and keep you from ever seeing the kingdom.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That is what the watchtower teaches you , relying solely on OT understanding.

But Paul blessed indiviuals body, soul and spirit.

This just makes me smile.....since Jesus relied on OT scripture exclusively, it was the only “understanding” he had. The Hebrew Scriptures were the only scripture in existence, apart from the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of those scriptures.......when he was teaching the Jewish people, it was the truth that his God had taught him from those writings.

John 7:14-16...
“When the festival was half over, Jesus went to the temple courtyard and began to teach. The Jews were surprised and asked, “How can this man be so educated when he hasn’t gone to school?” Jesus responded to them, “What I teach doesn’t come from me but from the one who sent me.” (GW)

If you are so hung up on spirit=breath then to you God is a puff of wind? For He is just pneuma too. Yes until god breathed into Adam He was just a body. It is when God breathed that Adam became a living being with a soul and spirit.

The definition of “spirit” as we understand it relies on understanding the Hebrew word ruʹach and the Greek word pneuʹma, often translated “spirit,” and which have a number of meanings. All of them refer to that which is invisible to human sight and gives evidence of force in motion.

The Hebrew and Greek words are used with reference to (1) wind, (2) the active life-force in earthly creatures, (3) the impelling force that issues from a person’s figurative heart and causes him to say and do things in a certain way, (4) inspired expressions originating from an invisible source, (5) spirit persons, and (6) God’s holy spirit. (Exodus 35:21; Psalm 104:29; Matthew 12:43; Luke 11:13)

So no, God is not a puff of wind but he is invisible and the power of his spirit gives evidence of his interactions with human beings in the scriptures. Definitions need to be understood as they were meant in their original languages, which you seem to have difficulty with.

Paul called us dead in sins until we were made alive by Jesus. So am I writing to a corpse now?

Being spiritually “dead” is not the same as physically “dead”.....so are you confused as to the meaning that scripture gives us concerning this condition?
A person can be spiritually “dead” but like the physical condition, this can be reversed. It s whole reason for the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples. People are judged by God according to their response to his message conveyed by his son on earth. It was Jesus who trained them and taught them what to preach to the people. He sent them out and said....

“When you go into a city or village, look for people who will listen to you there. Stay with them until you leave ⌞that place⌟. When you go into a house, greet the family. If it is a family that listens to you, allow your greeting to stand. But if it is not receptive, take back your greeting. If anyone doesn’t welcome you or listen to what you say, leave that house or city, and shake its dust off your feet. I can guarantee this truth: Judgment day will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than for that city.” (Matthew 10:11-15 )

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wrong! Only the group called the Sadducees. If you bothered to look at Jewish history
you would know they believed it.

When Jesus told the account of Lazarus and the rich man- The average crowd and the Pharisees knew exactly and literally what He spoke of.

LOL.....again you reveal that you have no idea.....the Sadducees had no belief in the resurrection....the Pharisees did.
The Sadducees were a prominent religious sect of Judaism made up of wealthy aristocrats and priests who wielded great authority over the activities at the temple. They rejected the many oral traditions observed by the Pharisees as well as other Pharisaic beliefs. They did not believe in the resurrection or in the existence of angels. They opposed Jesus just as the Pharisees did.

Ancient Jewish history tells us a lot about the failures of the Jewish nation and why the leadership they relied on to teach them God’s truth, let them down. Sectarianism and the adopted beliefs that went with it, was their undoing, and satan has gone overboard with it in his creation of Christendom.....what a muddle of disunited people all claiming to have the truth.....they can’t all be right....but they could all be wrong....(2 Thess 1:9-12) God lets them keep their delusions because he knows it is pointless to correct them...yet by hearing the message and rejecting the messengers, they condemn themselves.

So you hang belief on two particular words appearing side by side? Find me Jehovah's witness side by side in Scripture.

You crack me up.....I can find you scripture where God is calling his people, his “witnesses”....
“Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)
The LORD is Jehovah (Yahweh)

But there is no immortal soul because souls are entirely earth bound creatures of flesh and blood....they cannot be immortal.They cannot occupy the spirit realm.

So sad that you cannot recognize that Jesus spoke of physical death as sleep.

What is truly tragic is that you use the word resurrection for all people in the way it is defined, a rising of the body from teh dead, but yet when it comes to Jesus- you accept teh Watchtowers redefinition of resurrection and keep you from ever seeing the kingdom.

Oh are you sad again Ron? We actually do recognize physical death as “sleep” because the Bible itself says so....all “sleep” in death until Christ’s return....even his elect.

Here Paul confirms this....1 Thess 4:15-17.....
“We are telling you what the Lord taught. We who are still alive when the Lord comes will not go ⌞into his kingdom⌟ ahead of those who have already died. The Lord will come from heaven with a command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet ⌞call⌟ of God. First, the dead who believed in Christ will come back to life. Then, together with them, we who are still alive will be taken in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. In this way we will always be with the Lord. (GW)

Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him from his tomb? Jesus said he was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14)
Where did his sister say that she expected to see her brother again? (John 11:23-24)

There you have it.....Jesus comes back for his elect, who will rise first. (Rev 20:6) The faithful dead are still “sleeping” when Jesus returns and those alive at that time will not go ahead of them into the kingdom.

No immortal souls....just souls ‘sleeping’ in their graves awaiting the call to “come forth”....the same voice will call all the dead from their graves once the Kingdom rule has been established over the earth. Just as there is a "first resurrection", there will also be a second, general resurrection of the dead, where even the unrighteous dead will be given a chance to mend their ways. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus has "the voice of the Archangel" because he is the Archangel, Michael, which was his heavenly name before Jesus the man was born.

It's all there in plain sight, but doctrines will not allow people to just read the Bible and allow it to say what it does.....

 

[The Learner]

"
THE SYNAGOGUE SCHOOL

Boys and girls went to school in Galilee though boys continued till they were 15 if they displayed unusual ability while the girls were married by that time. Students probably attended school in the synagogue and were taught by the hazzan or a local Torah Teacher. Study began at age five or six in elementary school, called bet sefer. The subject was the Torah and the method was memorization. Since the learning of the community was passed orally, memorization of tradition and God's Word were essential.

At first students studied only the Torah. Later they began to study the more complicated oral interpretations of the Torah. Question-and-answer sessions between teacher and student were added to the memorization drills. The more gifted students might continue after age 12 or 13 in beth midrash (meaning "house of study," or secondary school). Here began the more intense process of understanding and applying the Torah and oral tradition to specific situations. The truly gifted would leave home to study with a famous rabbi to "become like him" as a talmid (disciple). Although their discussion and study might be held in the synagogue, these disciples would travel with their rabbi, learning the wisdom of Torah and oral tradition applied to the daily situations they faced.

By the time a person was an adult, he knew most of the Scriptures by heart. If someone recited a passage, the audience would know whether it was quoted accurately or not. Jesus, in keeping with his culture, would simply begin with "It is written ..." knowing his audience would recognize an accurate quote.

The Mishnah (the written record of the oral traditions of Jesus' time and after) recorded that the gifted student began study of the written Torah at age five, studied oral traditions at age 12, became a religious adult at 13, studied the application of Torah and tradition at 15, learned a trade at 20, and entered his full ability at 30. Although this was written after Jesus, it represents the practice of his time. It is significant that he came to Jerusalem at age 12, already wise; then he learned a trade from His father until his ministry began at age 30. His life seemed to follow the education practices of his people quite closely. He surely attended the local school of Nazareth and learned from great rabbis as well. Being addressed as "Rabbi" certainly indicated someone who had learned from a rabbi. He certainly selected a group of students who followed him, learning as they went. And everywhere his audience had the knowledge of the Bible on which Jesus so often based his teaching."

He Went To Synagogue

- He Went To The SynagogueThe New Testament records more than 10 occasions on which the ministry of Jesus took place in the synagogue. The Gospels record that "Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues." Yet the Christian reader rarely ponders the significance of such an...

www.thattheworldmayknow.com

 

[The Learner]

"

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Where Did Jesus Go to School?​

Posted on September 20, 2011
Ray Pritz
The New Testament gives us several hints of how a young Jewish child was educated. Paul tried to gain the confidence of an angry crowd in Jerusalem by telling them that he studied at the feet of Gamaliel, strictly according to “the law of our fathers” (Acts 22:3). He later wrote to Timothy, “From childhood you have known the sacred writings” (2 Tim. 3:15). Since Timothy’s father was not Jewish, we can assume that Timothy’s mother and grandmother, who were devout women (2 Tim. 1:5), either educated him in the Scriptures themselves or hired someone to do it.

Early Education​

We know almost nothing about Jesus’ actual education. We do know that he could read the Scriptures (Luke 4:16), and perhaps he also knew how to write (see John 8:6, 8), although writing was not part of the standard program. However, we do know enough about Jewish education at that time to paint a fairly full picture of the kind of training that Jesus must have received. Responsibility for the first level of formal education belonged to the father. As soon as the child was able to speak, he was to be taught some Bible verses. The learning of the Hebrew alef-bet began at about age three. The focus at the start was to train the memory, and the letters were learned both forwards and backwards. Since written documents were rare and accessible to only a few, memory was in many ways more important than the ability to read. The ideal student was compared to a cistern which does not lose a drop, and of one who forgot something he had learned it was said that he was like one who had forfeited his life (Avot 3.10). The student was to repeat what he heard, using the same words as his teacher. It should be no surprise, then, that some of Jesus’ sayings sound very much like sayings of other teachers around that time. This method of learning also helps us to understand why Jesus sometimes quoted only part of a Scripture: he knew that his audience would fill in the rest in their minds.

Rules of Education​

Only at about age five did the child begin to learn to read the letters so that he could study the Torah. It is possible that girls were also given some rudimentary education in the Scriptures. However, generally it was ruled that girls were not to continue with such study, for several reasons: their duties were said to lie elsewhere; some subjects were considered unsuitable for females; if the girls studied, it could cause too much mixing with the boys and consequent familiarity; and, finally, it was claimed that a woman’s mind was not really adaptable to study.
In the generation before the destruction of the Second Temple, Joshua ben Gamliel instituted rules regulating schools. It is probable that much of what he formalized was already in existence in Jesus’ generation. At age 6 or 7 all boys were to go to school, which was attached to the local synagogue. The teacher, who was usually the chazzan of the synagogue, taught reading by drawing letters on a board. When Jesus referred to the tittle (kotz, Matt. 5:18), it is clear that he meant the newer square script, not the ancient script, which did not contain the little pointed addition on some of the letters.
A child’s first reading was done in the book of Leviticus, because it contained some of the rules which were necessary for daily living. Besides, the stories which comprise most of the first two books of the Torah would already be familiar to the child. During the course of study, all of the books of the Torah and the Prophets were studied, including even those passages (like the story of Amnon and Tamar)which were not given a public Aramaic translation (targum) during the reading of Scripture in the synagogue. Naturally enough, the teaching of the Scripture was interspersed with many of the traditions of the Jewish people, and the children learned to recite the Shema, the grace after meals, and other traditional blessings. Reading and recitation of prayers was done aloud.

Responsibility of Education​

It was the responsibility of the teacher to train the children also in areas of behavior and values. Thus, for example, they should learn to avoid having dealings with violent people, to suppress all feelings of bitterness, and to avoid favoritism. All wrong-doing was to be punished, but the teacher should first of all convey the idea that sin is repulsive, rather than just emphasize its punishment. There was, of course, also physical punishment in the school, but it should never be too severe. The preferred instrument of punishment was a strap, never a rod.
The father was responsible to see that his son received such formal education until the age of 13. From that point onward, the boy no longer went to the bet sefer but was responsible to study on his own with other adults. However, the responsibility of the father did not stop there. He was required to teach his son a trade, usually the same one he himself had. It was said that “if you do not teach your son a trade, you make him a robber.”" Where Did Jesus Go to School? - Caspari Center

 

[The Learner]

The institution known as the "be rav" or "bet rabban" (house of the teacher), or as the "be safra" or "bet sefer" (house of the book), is said to have been originated by Ezra' (459 BCE) and his Great Assembly, who provided a public school in Jerusalem to secure the education of fatherless boys of the age of sixteen years and upward. However, the school system did not develop until Joshua ben Gamla (64 CE) the high priest caused public schools to be opened in every town and hamlet for all children above six or seven years of age (Babylonian Talmud, Bava Batra 21a).[6]

Schniedewind, William (26 May 2016). "Schools in Ancient Israel". Oxford Bibliographies Online. Oxford University Pres

 

[The Learner]

Acts 19:9
But some of them became stubborn and refused to believe. In front of everyone, they said bad things about the Way. So Paul left these Jews and took the Lord’s followers with him. He went to a place where a man named Tyrannus had a school. There Paul talked with people every day.

 

[The Learner]

Schools in the world of Jesus: Analysing the evidence
Pieter J J Botha
Neotestamentica
Vol. 33, No. 1 (1999), pp. 225-260 (36 pages)
Published By: New Testament Society of Southern Africa

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This just makes me smile.....since Jesus relied on OT scripture exclusively, it was the only “understanding” he had. The Hebrew Scriptures were the only scripture in existence, apart from the Septuagint, which was the Greek translation of those scriptures.......when he was teaching the Jewish people, it was the truth that his God had taught him from those writings.

And Jesus knew that when a mans body dies His soul goes to hell. either in Abrahams bosom or the place of torment. HIs spirit returns to God as Ecclesiastes says.

Being spiritually “dead” is not the same as physically “dead”.....so are you confused as to the meaning that scripture gives us concerning this condition?
A person can be spiritually “dead” but like the physical condition, this can be reversed. It s whole reason for the preaching work that Jesus assigned to all of his disciples. People are judged by God according to their response to his message conveyed by his son on earth. It was Jesus who trained them and taught them what to preach to the people. He sent them out and said....

You're getting close- for now you recognize that something in man that is dead can be made alive again. You are beginning to see other than those contorted lies of the Watchtower!

LOL.....again you reveal that you have no idea.....the Sadducees had no belief in the resurrection....the Pharisees did.
The Sadducees were a prominent religious sect of Judaism made up of wealthy aristocrats and priests who wielded great authority over the activities at the temple. They rejected the many oral traditions observed by the Pharisees as well as other Pharisaic beliefs. They did not believe in the resurrection or in the existence of angels. They opposed Jesus just as the Pharisees did.

According to you but according to history, I am right on. PHarisees and the average Jew of Jesus day, believed in spiritual life after death. They did not think a person ceased to exist at bodily death, Just like Jesus taught and Pal and John and the apostles all taught!

Just like Paul declared- when we (us who trust in the physical resurrection of Jesus for our sins) are absnet from teh body, we are present with the Lord- MNot at some future date or time, but the moment our body dies.

Whatr you willingly overlook is this: Paul says that we as persons are not our body. When "WE" ( as people) are absewnt from our bodies , WE as people are present with the Lord whhile our bodies are in the ground! This is simple basuic 2nd grade grammar and understanding. The Watchtower dumbs you down to blind you to Gods Truth!