My gosh, it’s like I’m looking at myself! We really are the same family. If you knew how many times Epi had to repeat it over and over to me - my gosh, it must have been to him like a parent having to watch a Barney episode 500 times.Well, I am certainly empty of any really meaningful usage. Yes, I can go to the Community Center and serve at soup kitchens or pantry's but, that is not a selfless thing as there was a need to get out of the house and around people after not being able to work any longer, although He DID give me a love for these folks. Much of my work there is behind the scenes (except for Thursdays)
Don't ya think that as we "know them by their fruit" we can also know ourselves in that vein, by our own fruits, or lack of.
It's funny how we can just start to grasp a reality only for it to elude us. My brain feels like there is a roadblock, especially when I am getting close to something that "seems" to be getting clearer, like holiness vs righteousness only to elude me part way there! Frustrating, lol.
Not attempting to limit God in any way but, the proof is in the pudding really, we see what what we are and we know if we have motives. My motives here are not hidden and I expect no "rewards" (another subject out of my understanding, thought Jesus was our reward!)
It seems some Christians never stop! Always stepping up to the plate when it comes to "busy work"...neither do I see that as serving God unless it is going to benefit or edify others but, to do, do, do these things is not true works of God but works of men. And, why do church's ALWAYS center around so much food and eating! Yikes...breaking bread together is great but all these silly tea parties, ladies luncheons (DEF don't fit in these things) Although many of the older ladies love them. Not a thing wrong with this kind of fellowship, just wish the church's I've attended were more welcoming to some that do not fit in so they never stay with this fellowship long. I'm really mad at the church and these gazillions of differing teachings. It's no wonder most unbelievers just throw their hands in the air and walk away
Despite saying all that, He still rules, He is still merciful, forgiving and blesses all, saved and unsaved alike. Sorry if this is all over the place (it is).
Still waiting for this power, until then I generally keep my mouth shut unless asked something about The Lord directly.
JMOI
Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?
- Thread starter Episkopos
- Start date
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"I know you have to become more alarmed as you see more, until finally, you just…stop worrying about what you can’t change in you and get out of His way by absolute trust."
This is probably just where I'm at right now...not worried about anything this life can throw at me, it's the wondering what it is that is blocking my hearing Him in any "sure" way. it's all so very vague and I know that is on purpose, as we are to seek Him "diligently".
You've good insight sissy...thanks for never fearing being fully honest with me...don't care for the pat answers that most hand out. Their hearts are in the right place for sure yet, one is still left empty or even emptier with the pat answers.
I remember feeling his frustration at times with me during Zoom, lol.
Reminds me of:
"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9
Seems Jesus got a bit frustrated with His disciples several times, lol.
Pretty sure had I not gotten so into the world earlier on in my life, my mind would be much more sharp...reap-sow...
Misunderstandings have filled the churches with people who want to EXPLOIT God, not serve Him. God is selfless. Christ likeness is selfless. But people have been promised heaven for remaining "just as I am." The truth is that God loves us AWAY from what we are. But easy peasy grace (man inspired) only covers up the problem. True grace is power from heaven to walk as Jesus walked...as we put on Christ and HIS perfection.
If people feel they are covered IN their sins...why repent? Only a fool tries to pay for something that is free. They have mistaken a free sample for the full measure of grace.
The problem with modern doctrines is that they cater to the flesh. The cost of entering INTO Christ is everything. Paul says that he counts all things as dung to win Christ. It is only as we are accepted INTO the Beloved that we are COVERED by the perfect and holy righteousness of God. That anointing costs us everything.
The only thing that can be imputed to us is our own righteousness...and what WE do.
In the holy walk it is Christ doing things through us. But even then that righteousness is God's not ours. It cannot be imputed to us...it is His righteousness. That's why it's called "HIS" righteousness. If it is imputed to us then it is "OUR" righteousness.
By whose works will we be judged? Our own...or God's? That should tell you what imputing means. If God's righteousness is imputed to us...then we are as great as God.
So we see how confused and misunderstood the gospel has become. A gospel without power and without truth.
You've gone from silly to stupid. A car needs no 'human unobtanium' to get anywhere. (It only exists in movies, Mr Cameron). It needs gas.
And neither does a lamp need 'human unobtanium' to give light. It just needs oil.
Your example was a perfect example..... of a non sequiter. Mixed metaphors do not add clarity. They invite vagueness.
You might have been thinking about imputation when you wrote the original post. You have two or three threads and a podcast on the subject, but it wasn't mentioned in your OP here. You should have made clear (ahem) what it was you were thinking about, because it isn't what you wrote about. The 'thought' that you wanted to share begins with the invitation for the reader to imagine something purposely vague to illustrate a point. Fine and good. We can imagine your given scenario.
But then you point to scripture-- the parable of the ten virgins as an example of this lack of clarity. The story has none of it. The story has no indication that the virgins lacked clarity Jean. You made that up. You inserted the idea. You imagined it. --Is that clear enough?
The parable isn't about clear versus vague, which is what your post was about. It's about wise versus foolish and that's a point you are illustrating, whether you realize it or not.
OK. Fill yourself with the Spirit then. Just put on Christ along with a change of clothing. It must be within your own power to walk above your own power.
They aren't being taught the meat of the word, only the milk, long past when they should be digesting meat because it is needed in order to grow. Yes, unfortunately in addition to neglecting the harder-to-digest things, and learning righteousness, people are also being taught falsehoods.
Absolutely agree....we don't tear down righteousness, but build upon it. Whose righteousness are we building upon....not our own because that would be a shaky foundation.
I don't know what your thoughts on unity are, but true unity isn't something that can be manufactured by us, it is in spirit among those who actually have the spirit. There is a false unity that the flesh strives to achieve self righteously, but that is a way that seemeth right to man and we know where that leads. And friendship with the world is enmity with God. Sometimes it's almost as though people are trying to be more "righteous" than God, like those Corinthians who were actually proud of their "tolerance" of gross sin in the church. (Of course that wasn't real righteousness though, it was the rags of human self righteousness.)
Instead of getting snotty, let's talk a minute about the parable you used as your proof text. Why don't you tell us what you think the parable means?
From what you just blurted out (emotionally) it seems that you think the oil in this parable represents the Spirit. Are you saying then it was within the 'power' of those five foolish virgins to have got more 'Spirit' (that human unobtanium) and that the five wise ones did just that?
Please explain your understanding of that parable. (now we're getting somewhere)
There is a big difference between anointing and character. Anointing is ON us....God's righteousness. But character is IN us. So then we are building on OUR righteousness...not God's. God's righteousness is already perfect. We are being adapted..renewed INTO it...not improving on it.
Whose mind are we renewing..ours or Christ's? But we have the mind of Christ, right? So are we renewing Christ's mind? OR....is the mind of Christ ON us so that it trains up OUR mind. There is a template of righteousness to fill within us...Christ IN us. But the righteousness we will be judged by is our own...and judged by comparing it to God's righteousness...all this on the holiness level.
There is such a fundamental lack of understanding about righteousness.
We will be judged by OUR righteousness not God's. Otherwise everyone would receive the same reward as God...we would all be the Most High together.
How can we be judged if God sees only Himself in us?
We will be judged by OUR works...not God's ....that's the truth.
it is our character that is to become Christ-like. You can't improve on God's anointing.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
"God has not given US<. (the born again), the SPIRIT of FEAR">
He has given US, (the born again),= but of power and of love and of a sound mind.."
A sound mind is to have the right understanding of God's Grace.
To exit there, in your BELIEF.
This is a "sound mind". as this is were you find peace, joy, and power to live Holy.
The empty vessels are the free samples that have run out. Most modern Protestants believe they are as saved as they can possibly be by entering into the wilderness walk. They know nothing of the Promised Land. Those who have oil have BOUGHT the oil by paying ALL they have to obtain the endless supply of grace that comes from abiding IN Christ.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The born again......not the cult member who is water baptized and nothing more......but the born again, are "ONE with God". "made righteous", having become "the righteousness of God, in Christ".
So There is no judgment waiting for them..
There is a rewards situation, subsequent to death, that Jesus will provide to His redeemed (Bema Seat)...., that is based on "what you did in my body".
But that is not a JUDGEMENT, that is a reward.
Milk drinkers will never see the distinction between righteousness and holiness...because they are stuck too closely on the "teat" so that their vision is blocked. One needs to move back to eat meat. One needs to look beyond one's own experience until then.
The milk satisfies..to the point where one just needs to keep doing what they have always done. But being weaned from the milk...means being weaned from a religiously carnal understanding.
The milk satisfies..to the point where one just needs to keep doing what they have always done. But being weaned from the milk...means being weaned from a religiously carnal understanding.
If I go collect and and store winter coats for the homeless for when winter comes, would you tell me I did a bad thing? Or if I work in a soup kitchen to help feed hungry people? Of course not. Because I DIDNT do a bad or wrong thing, and you would not say I did.Well, I am certainly empty of any really meaningful usage. Yes, I can go to the Community Center and serve at soup kitchens or pantry's but, that is not a selfless thing as there was a need to get out of the house and around people after not being able to work any longer, although He DID give me a love for these folks. Much of my work there is behind the scenes (except for Thursdays)
Don't ya think that as we "know them by their fruit" we can also know ourselves in that vein, by our own fruits, or lack of.
It's funny how we can just start to grasp a reality only for it to elude us. My brain feels like there is a roadblock, especially when I am getting close to something that "seems" to be getting clearer, like holiness vs righteousness only to elude me part way there! Frustrating, lol.
Not attempting to limit God in any way but, the proof is in the pudding really, we see what what we are and we know if we have motives. My motives here are not hidden and I expect no "rewards" (another subject out of my understanding, thought Jesus was our reward!)
It seems some Christians never stop! Always stepping up to the plate when it comes to "busy work"...neither do I see that as serving God unless it is going to benefit or edify others but, to do, do, do these things is not true works of God but works of men. And, why do church's ALWAYS center around so much food and eating! Yikes...breaking bread together is great but all these silly tea parties, ladies luncheons (DEF don't fit in these things) Although many of the older ladies love them. Not a thing wrong with this kind of fellowship, just wish the church's I've attended were more welcoming to some that do not fit in so they never stay with this fellowship long. I'm really mad at the church and these gazillions of differing teachings. It's no wonder most unbelievers just throw their hands in the air and walk away
Despite saying all that, He still rules, He is still merciful, forgiving and blesses all, saved and unsaved alike. Sorry if this is all over the place (it is).
Still waiting for this power, until then I generally keep my mouth shut unless asked something about The Lord directly.
JMOI
But I have begun to see that touch of selfishness, of pride, of pettiness, arrogance, still IN me. Because I now see this and am bothered by it, NOW does it make my collecting of coats a bad thing? No. At no point is my collecting of coats a despicable thing. But I HAVE seen I am not holy and completely pure and I have begun to hunger for true righteousness in my inner man.
I WANT to be spotless, but I do what I don’t want. I do what I agree is not good and snap impatiently and angrily at the other lady who helps me with the coats because she’s going on and on about how this one has a little fraying at the cuffs or that one has a small spot on the pocket. I snap at her, we are trying to keep them from FREEZING to death, not dressing them for a job interview!! NOW is my collecting of the coats a despicable thing? No. It is still a good thing to do to care that homeless men don’t freeze to death in their tent in the woods.
Now do you see that the righteousness a man is capable of (caring that the homeless not freeze) is not a bad thing? Just because I am not perfect, holy, it is still not a bad thing.
And,
35 but in every nation the one who [a]fears Him and [b]does what is right is acceptable to Him.
So using me and coats, would you say my collecting of coats is not acceptable to God? Does He see I have done a bad thing to collect them? Haven’t I cared that my brother not freeze at least as much as I care that I don’t freeze? Would you say my collecting of coats is a foul and dirty thing, like a mildewed and mustering sponge in the sink? no. You would not.
Now if I compared the righteousness/the right thing I have done with the coats against the righteousness and holiness of our Lord, THEN what I did would appear as the filthy sponge in the sink.
That’s the comparison of the righteousness a man can do against holiness.
As Epi taught us in zoom, some verses concern the righteousness men are capable of and some concern the holiness of God. Remember when he compared Annais and Saphira with the man God told to go to Paul and he argued with God, why wasn’t HE struck dead? He argued with God. Why didn’t God strike him dead too?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
That's right! Taking words out of context to apply it in a difference sense is precisely what the OP is referring to. When one is talking about he who is without sin, cast the 1st stone, we are talking about stoning. This word "can be" taken in the sense of getting high from drugs. This is the kind of word games you routinely play. You do this to make an unrelated point to what is being discussed.
Your connotion to teacher excludes no one (since we "can" possibly pearn from everyone), right?
teacher
noun
teach·er ˈtē-chər1
: one that teaches
especially : one whose occupation is to instruct
2
: a Mormon ranking above a deacon in the Aaronic priesthood
Perhaps it makes you feel smart?
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Milk Drinkers and fake believers, will always try to argue that they have some part in "being righteous".
This is their SELF Righteousness running their RELIGION.
God's Righteous = will only and always give all Credit Due Christ on the Cross as the only REASON that God views them as "made righteous" and kept righteous.
Philippians 1:6
Always with love Nancy!I remember feeling his frustration at times with me during Zoom, lol.
Reminds me of:
"Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?" John 14:9
Seems Jesus got a bit frustrated with His disciples several times, lol.
Pretty sure had I not gotten so into the world earlier on in my life, my mind would be much more sharp...reap-sow...
What is tiring is the by rote indoctrination patterns that pass for doctrines...doctrines that have no merit except to feel good in the flesh. The gospel is HARD on the flesh. Only the poor and suffering see it as good news. We are to preach the good news to the poor...not the rich. The rich have everything to lose. Woe to the rich..they have their reward right now in this life.More made up conjecture. More imaginings.
There were no free samples given in the parable. The parable isn't about salvation. Not in the slightest. It isn't about grace.
They all had oil, some had a lamp full, some had a lamp full and an extra flask. Everybody's lamp went out in the story, because they became drowsy and went to sleep. When they were awakened with a shout, the five who had an extra flask were able to replenish their lamps, while those with no extra oil were told to go to market and buy some.
You think the oil is grace? You think the five wise ones bought grace? --by paying all they have to obtain it?
That's a new gospel, friend.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I too am enjoying this. The 'teacher' cannot answer a simple question about how he knows what he is "teaching?" (I don't think I've ever encountered an actual false teacher before this thread.)
No answer.
Cricket ... cricket ...
Sad that @Episkopos relies on putting others down to make his points.
- Luther,
- other Reformers,
- denominations that teach "fast food" shallow knowledge,
- @Mr E (it must be within your own power to walk above your own power) and
- me asking 'silly' questions that are ignored.
Indeed. Humility: the beginning and end of the virtues. That's not vague but doctrinally clear.
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