Doctrinal Clarity or vagueness?

[Episkopos]

Yes, absolutely. Through faith that is not of our own lest any man should boast. We are simply to follow/obey Him....His leading. And it takes faith/trust to do that.

Faith that is not our own (that of Christ) leads us to walk exactly as Jesus walked. Do you deny that? Following Christ from various distances is good, but no better than what the Israelites did in the wilderness. Do you see that?

 

[Lizbeth]

God considered Abraham to be righteous. This doesn't mean that God saw Abraham to be as righteous as He is. There is a human scale to righteousness. Just like there is a human scale to strength (God is far stronger).

Without Jesus we can do nothing. Nothing? Nothing on a human scale? Or nothing on an eternal scale?

Without this distinction between the human level and the holy level we get nothing but confusion, foolishness and heresies.

I don't disagree with everything you say brother, but on this point I believe you're not rightly dividing the word.....this seems to be reasoning to try and make something make sense that appears contradictory to the logical mind. Splitting hairs in a way. If righteousness is a gift from God how can it be our own, (or Abraham's own) righteousness? Our own righteousness is as filthy rags, so how could that please God or be sufficient to translate us into the kingdom of light? God is the one who chose and called Abraham to begin with.....faith to believe was not his own, just like our faith is not of our own (that no man may boast) but is of the Holy Spirit. We did not choose Him, but He chose us.

But after receiving the gift of righteousness then of course we are to learn to walk in what we have received and overcome in the battles that get thrown at us, and aim for true holiness, (which really we already have, but aren't necessarily walking in). It's the paradox of "all things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under." Not really logical as such, but it is spiritual truth.

 

[Wrangler]

Do you flat out deny that the words of Jesus are Spirit and life? Is Jesus a mystic? Or can you admit you have no idea what the NT is about?

Your questions are silly and baiting. I invite scrutiny of what I say if I think it is honest. Otherwise I just ignore questions.

See how easy that is? To answer your questions:

• No, I do not deny that the words of Jesus are Spirit and life (in a metaphorical sense)
• No, Jesus was not a mystic.
• I have an idea of what the NT is about (Thanks for kindly asking)

Since I reject mystical dualism, I reject the "insight" of mystical dualists of the word of God. The "insight" imposes manmade doctrine onto God's word, which violates:
2 Cor 1:13 (VOICE) We are not writing to you in anything resembling codes or riddles.
Mark 7:13 (NLT) And so you cancel the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.

 

[Wrangler]

I don't disagree with everything you say brother, but on this point I believe you're not rightly dividing the word.....this seems to be reasoning to try and make something make sense that appears contradictory to the logical mind. Splitting hairs in a way. If righteousness is a gift from God how can it be our own, (or Abraham's own) righteousness?

@Episkopos is a mystic. He believes it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end.

That's a euphemism. He invents meaning as he goes.

 

[Mr E]

I don't disagree with everything you say brother, but on this point I believe you're not rightly dividing the word.....this seems to be reasoning to try and make something make sense that appears contradictory to the logical mind. Splitting hairs in a way. If righteousness is a gift from God how can it be our own, (or Abraham's own) righteousness? Our own righteousness is as filthy rags, so how could that please God or be sufficient to translate us into the kingdom of light? God is the one who chose and called Abraham to begin with.....faith to believe was not his own, just like our faith is not of our own (that no man may boast) but is of the Holy Spirit. We did not choose Him, but He chose us.

But after receiving the gift of righteousness then of course we are to learn to walk in what we have received and overcome in the battles that get thrown at us, and aim for true holiness, (which really we already have, but aren't necessarily walking in). It's the paradox of "all things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under." Not really logical as such, but it is spiritual truth.

Neither do I disagree with everything @Episkopos says. I hope I haven't given that impression. I've said before that I often enjoy his musings, but sometimes he strays far off track. He's adopted a kind of works-based faith where he proposes a kind of methodology to 'attain' righteousness, grace, faith, and holiness as some sort of progression from one level to another. It's kind of Jewish thinking at the root of the tree, like the farmer knows nothing, the Rabbi a lot, so he must feed the farmer, the synagogue rulers and the Council of the Sanhedrin are the best of the Rabbis, oh- and then there are the kaballah mystics, who know all and have left all behind--- but you have to rise through the ranks and know all before you can abandon it. It's mainly/mostly self-promotion and hubris which proclaims "I know more than you, so you should listen to me.' At times, it's stomach churning.

 

[Wrangler]

In your scheme Jesus was resurrected from the dead so that the whole world can continue to sin. The absolute here is the "non-dualistic"..."without Me you can do nothing."

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything like that.

Like Lizbeth, I don't believe you are discerning God's word rightly. The Bible is a highly figurative book. Non-literal is not a synonym for mystical.

When God says Abraham's descendants will be more than the grains of sand in the world or stars in heaven, it is hyperbole. (This is how the culture of those who wrote the Bible spoke.) Another clear example is when Jesus said if you destroy the temple, it will be rebuilt in 3 days. He was not talking about the literal temple Solomon built.

While I am keen on metaphorical sayings, I deny the validity of mysticism. While I love mysteries, even Jesus did not know when he would return. Only God knows that. Just because the day is unknown to us, it does not make it unknowable. One can say things that are unknown are a mystery but that does not make it mystical.

 

[Mr E]

@Episkopos is a mystic. He believes it is entirely possible to pick up a turd from the clean end.

That's a euphemism. He invents meaning as he goes.

He's certainly a wanna-be.

 

[Episkopos]

I don't disagree with everything you say brother, but on this point I believe you're not rightly dividing the word.....this seems to be reasoning to try and make something make sense that appears contradictory to the logical mind. Splitting hairs in a way. If righteousness is a gift from God how can it be our own, (or Abraham's own) righteousness?

God's righteousness is a covering OVER us. It is an anointing. As in..."His banner over me is love." Entering INTO Christ gives us God's covering grace.

God covers OUR righteousness with His own. He covers our strength with His own. He covers our life with His own...etc

1 Corinthians 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


2 Cor. 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags, so how could that please God or be sufficient to translate us into the kingdom of light?

We are not taken up by our righteousness but by our faith...the full measure of our faith brings about the gift of grace and the full measure of the grace of God.

The example of Abraham was a fullness of human faith justifying us. Why don't more people pay attention to Phinehas? A whole measure of works also justified him.

For another example of faith that justifies we have the Heb. 11 account of Enoch

Heb. 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Enoch was taken up into heaven by his faith. That serves as an example to us how faith works. Our faith moves God! The NT faith is about a new kind of faith that takes us up...translates us INTO the Beloved. The fullness of our faith upgraded by grace into the fullness of the faith of Christ so that mountains can be moved.

Compare that account to this...

He hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of His dear Son, Col 1:13

God is the one who chose and called Abraham to begin with.....faith to believe was not his own, just like our faith is not of our own (that no man may boast) but is of the Holy Spirit. We did not choose Him, but He chose us.

The angels were moved by Abraham's faith...that he feared God. There is NO reward for a gift that God gives us...only what we do with it.

But after receiving the gift of righteousness then of course we are to learn to walk in what we have received and overcome in the battles that get thrown at us, and aim for true holiness, (which really we already have, but aren't necessarily walking in). It's the paradox of "all things HAVE been put under His feet, but we do not yet SEE all things put under." Not really logical as such, but it is spiritual truth.

The eventual end of the world is not the same as our individual end. We can experience the fullness of a walk in God's overcoming grace even as the world slides deeper into chaos.

 

[-Phil]

Bit sneaky putting ‘doctrinal’ before clarity, and or ‘between’ clarity & vagueness.

 

[Nancy]

Amen, yes it is.

Gal 3:6

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.



Rom 3:24-27

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.





Rom 3:21-22

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:





Rom 4:1-27

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.



Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Rom 5:1-2

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.




Rom 5:6-10

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.



Rom 5:15-19

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



THIS IS THE GOSPEL. Recommend pulling up a chair and reading those scriptures prayerfully from your own bibles. But it doesn’t nullify all the warnings and admonitions. We are not to use this grace and liberty as a license to sin…..and how can we who are dead to sin live in it any longer…..God is not mocked….if we keep on wilfully sinning there is no more sacrifice for sins…. Etc, etc. It may appear paradoxical such that if we try to reason it out with our logical carnal mind we will miss the mark. We need to just believe and receive everything written and don’t even try to resolve the apparent contradictions ourselves. Understanding or partial understanding needs to come by the Holy Spirit and eventually will.

It's from this foundation of having been made the righteousness of Christ that we even seek to run the race lawfully (He being the cornerstone of the foundation)….His Spirit within, His conscience, His fear, as well as gratitude and love for the Lord for so great a salvation which makes us want to please Him.

Hello sister,
Thank you for the reply, lot's to sort through!

 

[The Learner]

ok where are we going with this what doctrine does the OP want to discuss?

 

[ScottA]

So says the mystic.

If you want to call speaking by the Holy Spirit "mystic"...you are again out of context.

 

[Wrangler]

If you want to call speaking by the Holy Spirit "mystic"...you are again out of context.

I've learned to give mystics all the credit they deserve.

 

[Mr E]

If you want to call speaking by the Holy Spirit "mystic"...you are again out of context.

It’s kind of funny when people cling so tightly to their beliefs while throwing shade on the beliefs of others. We are better off holding things loosely and remaining open to that mystical One. If there are those who dismiss the mystery of the Holy Spirit, what of value could they possibly offer? What they, themselves know?

No thank you. To reject the duality of scripture is to reject scripture. It’s a rejection of our nature itself, physical and spiritual at once. If that understanding is what counts as mystical. Color me. If you deny the invisible, you deny Him and His nature.

A pragmatist would realize the benefit of questioning his own ‘beliefs’ while asking questions and forming a better hypothesis for those yet unknowable things. Only a zealot refuses to question his own while throwing rocks at others.

 

[Wrangler]

To reject the duality of scripture is to reject scripture. It’s a rejection of our nature itself, physical and spiritual at once.

PUL-EASE. This is a manifest artificial dichotomy. A butterfly does not have 2 natures, before and after its cocoon phase.

An argument AGAINST abortion is that a human is a human from the beginning. We are not one nature before the magical-mystical moment of birth and then another nature after. Rather, it is one nature growing from one phase to another.

I recall an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation. The leader of an alien but pre-warp society said he woke up that day the most powerful being in the known universe. He goes to bed realizing he is just a small man in a much larger universe. BUT, he thinks it was a good day.


When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
1 Corinthians 13:11

 

[Mr E]

PUL-EASE. This is a manifest artificial dichotomy. A butterfly does not have 2 natures, before and after its cocoon phase.

An argument AGAINST abortion is that a human is a human from the beginning. We are not one nature before the magical-mystical moment of birth and then another nature after. Rather, it is one nature growing from one phase to another.

I recall an episode of Star Trek The Next Generation. The leader of an alien but pre-warp society said he woke up that day the most powerful being in the known universe. He goes to bed realizing he is just a small man in a much larger universe. BUT, he thinks it was a good day.


When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.
1 Corinthians 13:11

That’s among the most pathetic responses I’ve read here, and I’ve read a lot.

Are you a butterfly? What does its nature have to do with yours?

 

[Wrangler]

That’s among the most pathetic responses I’ve read here, and I’ve read a lot.

Are you a butterfly? What does its nature have to do with yours?

Re-read what I wrote. Pay specific attention to our nature pre and post birth.

It is, of course, a brilliant analysis, if I don't mind saying so myself. Dual natures? When donkey's fly. See what I did there?

 

[Episkopos]

Neither do I disagree with everything @Episkopos says. I hope I haven't given that impression. I've said before that I often enjoy his musings, but sometimes he strays far off track. He's adopted a kind of works-based faith where he proposes a kind of methodology to 'attain' righteousness, grace, faith, and holiness as some sort of progression from one level to another. It's kind of Jewish thinking at the root of the tree, like the farmer knows nothing, the Rabbi a lot, so he must feed the farmer, the synagogue rulers and the Council of the Sanhedrin are the best of the Rabbis, oh- and then there are the kaballah mystics, who know all and have left all behind--- but you have to rise through the ranks and know all before you can abandon it. It's mainly/mostly self-promotion and hubris which proclaims "I know more than you, so you should listen to me.' At times, it's stomach churning.

LOL. Its so funny how people react to apostolic doctrine. It is God who receives us into the high calling...not a religious clique. Paul sought to win Christ and be translated into the Beloved. People 2,000 years later have NO idea what Paul is talking about. There's no idea of what it means to walk in resurrection life. Again, all of this is by election of God, not some kind of religious posturing.

In the time of the early church the spiritual brotherhood was seen as a dangerous sect by the more worldly minded. We have returned to that same worldliness, but now pushed by religious people.

 

[Enoch111]

LOL. Its so funny how people react to apostolic doctrine.

It is even funnier when Episkopos imagines he is presenting "apostolic doctrine". It would take up a lot of cyberspace to expose all the errors which Episkopos has brought to this forum. Here's just one doozy: God covers OUR righteousness with His own.

Since you will not find this anywhere in Scripture, what you will find is that ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS. So according to Episkopos, God does not remove these filthy rags but rather covers them up with clean linen, pure and white. Did you ever hear such nonsense?

Now here is what God does: Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. (Zech 3:3-5).

 

[Episkopos]

It is even funnier when Episkopos imagines he is presenting "apostolic doctrine". It would take up a lot of cyberspace to expose all the errors which Episkopos has brought to this forum. Here's just one doozy: God covers OUR righteousness with His own.

Since you will not find this anywhere in Scripture, what you will find is that ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS. So according to Episkopos, God does not remove these filthy rags but rather covers them up with clean linen, pure and white. Did you ever hear such nonsense?

This is funny. Instead of God's covering righteousness you would have the righteousness of God be attributed to you...as if you are intrinsically as righteous as God. Of course pretend righteousness sounds good...if you are into pretending. In your scheme you sin with God's righteousness...making God's righteousness (although pretend) to be like filthy rags, just like yours.

I also said our strength (which is insufficient) is also covered by His strength. Our life is covered by His life (IN Christ). We still live..but not by our own power, while we are IN Christ. Our life is dealt with at the cross...cutting away the carnal nature. The same goes for OUR capacity for righteousness. OURS is cut away to reveal a saintly righteousness being formed in the image of Christ. The righteousness of saints is NO LONGER carnal in nature...but covered (and influenced) by His own. We don't behave the same way in the Spirit as we do in the flesh. One would have to know the higher walk under HIS anointing to understand how grace works.

Now here is what God does: Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. 5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by. (Zech 3:3-5).

You are making my point. Clothing is a covering. The filthy garments is the insufficiency of the flesh. The covering of Christ...by PUTTING on Christ (after the outer man is crucified and the flesh nature cut away) makes one holy and without spot or wrinkle of sin.

God doesn't impute anything to us that isn't true. Otherwise God is partaking in the pretend schemes of men. But what is highly esteemed among men is abomination with God.