Understanding "THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED" passage.

[rwb]

I fully agree that man is a spirit--we have no debate about that.

Randy, you don't seem to be listening! Man is NOT a spirit! He is a mortal human being with a spirit.

But inasmuch as the body describes Man as a *combination* of spirit and body I think that to be consistent the Bible describes our resurrection as the same, ie as the combination of spirit joined to a new physical body. Calling it a "spirit body" is therefore describing a spirit man joined to a new physical body that conforms to the Spirit of God.

To know and enter the Kingdom of God on the new earth, man must have part in the first resurrection in TIME, and the bodily resurrection when the last trumpet begins to sound that TIME on earth shall be no more. Man is only described a spiritual body when his spirit ascends to heaven alive through the power of the Holy Spirit in us. As long as man has both a living physical body and living spirit in this age or the age to come, they will be living souls upon this earth and the new earth to come

This is the part I disagree with. I just don't hear it stated as such in the Bible.

How can man possess eternal life after his body dies? If he does not possess eternal life when his body dies, then Christ would not have said whosoever believes in me shall NEVER DIE. There are only two options Randy. Either our body is not really dead when there is no sign of life, or our spirit continues to live if in dwelt with the Holy Spirit after our body dies. Which do you believe is the way faithful men possess the promise of eternal life the moment we believe?

That's the point I've continually been making, and you are contradicting yourself here. 1st you say the "human body is never eternal." And then you claim it can be "raised immortal." That is, my friend, a complete contradiction! It's no wonder we're in disagreement and you can't understand my position. You're dead set on believing something that is irrational and contradictory.

Eternal life is given to the spirit in men through His Holy Spirit in us. Our natural body is given immortal life when resurrected if we died in faith. The resurrected and changed human body becomes immortal possessing an eternal spirit, that complete living soul shall never die. No contradiction, just confusion on your part.

This is the problem I'm having with your position. You say that eternal life can only apply to the human spirit because the human spirit alone is eternally existing. But I'm denying that. I'm saying that through physical resurrection man can retain his identity as spirit and soul, and thus both body and soul can obtain eternal life.

The fact we receive eternal life while we are yet in our mortal bodies does not contradict this. It is a *promise* of physical resurrection, and not just the application of eternal life to our spirits!

It is the spirit within man that is given eternal life through His Spirit in us. Remember, it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing. Without His Spirit, in physical death man's spirit will return to God who gave it without life. Man's spirit is only eternal if it possesses the life-giving Spirit of God within. The life we receive through His Spirit in us is eternal spiritual life and shall be immortal & incorruptible physical life. Then we will be complete living souls.

It is in spiritual resurrection that man retains a spirit (living) soul, and that only through the Holy Spirit. Only through His Spirit in our spirit does our spirit attain eternal life while we are still living in mortal flesh. Our mortal bodies cannot attain eternal life because they are all destined to die. The physical resurrection is the promise of Christ, that men/women of faith will be made whole again when the Kingdom of God is complete, the last trump sounds that time on earth has ended, and our bodies are resurrected immortal.

As I said earlier, as bodiless spirits we do not yet have the fulfillment of Eternal Life--we only have a legal guarantee of that and the partial experience of what the Bible calls a "down payment" on our Salvation. We have a renewal of our spirit, as well as the promise of physical resurrection. We enjoy the benefit of fellowship with God and a sharing in the virtues of Christ. But we do not yet have the full package, which requires more than a bodiless spirit--it requires a physical resurrection.

Paul says we shall be spiritual bodies, when the body of the faithful saints dies. No, both while alive on earth and alive in heaven when we leave this earth, we are on eternally spiritually alive through His Spirit in us. We won't be complete living souls again until after the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and the seventh trumpet begins to sound time for this earth shall be finished. The Spirit that gives us eternal spiritual life is indeed our down payment. Looks forward to the complete promise of immortal body with eternal spirit as whole living souls once again.

No, you have this completely wrong! As a Millennialist I believe that at the 1st resurrection the saints of today and of ages past will obtain a full physical resurrection, whether they live for a thousand years in heaven or not. I believe Jesus was fully raised from the dead in a physical body after the Cross, and presently lives in heaven. But he is *not* a bodiless spirit with Eternal Life!

I know that is what you believe Randy. But this is not biblical and cannot be proven, it is only your opinion without proof from the Word of God. The living martyred souls John sees in heaven are there because in TIME, which a thousand years equates, they lived and reigned with Christ. (That's what 20:4 says) That which John says is living though they were physically dead, but John isn't seeing flesh but spiritual bodies, because in life they were faithful unto death, so through the Spirit they lived, and death could not take from them the eternal spiritual life they have through the Spirit. These faithful saints will remain in heaven a spiritual body until the Kingdom of God is complete and time (the thousand years) have ended. Then after Satan's little season, these spiritual bodies will have immortal physical bodies to live with the Lord on the new earth forever.

That's not what I read. Breathing spirit-life in Man in the beginning was not Eternal Life. That was associated with the Tree of Life, which Man failed to partake of. The eternity of his spiritual being certainly made him capable of receiving Eternal Life, but the fact he did not indicates that the eternity of his spirit has nothing to do with obtaining Eternal Life.

It was not just living in an innocent state forever, without falling, that constituted Eternal Life. It was choosing to eat from the Tree of Life. It was a picture of eating from Christ before the need for the Cross.

If man had not been created of the Spirit breath of God and immortal body, God would not have promised they would live forever IF they obeyed Him. They had the choice to eat from any tree they chose. Except they could not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God barred the way to the tree of life, because if He had not then mankind would live forever in a state of aging, growing old, and sick and everlasting suffering.

Adam and Eve became natural spirit, with mortal bodies, destined to die only after they disobeyed God. That was what God means when He tells them, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Not only did Adam & Eve become natural, mortal mankind on the very day they disobeyed God, but throughout the day/age they lived they began to experience what God has promised as their bodies began the process of decay through sin and death that was the consequence of sin.

 

[rwb]

What is the future?

For the one who dies in unbelief, darkness and death. For the one who dies in faith eternal light and life with the Lord forever.

 

[-Phil]

What you're doing here is mixing two different definitions of "life" here. As I've said from the start, Eternal Life and Eternal Existence are two different things. If we use the term "Life," without making this distinction, we end up in confusion.

Yes, the Lost end up without *Eternal Life.* But they don't cease to exist anymore than the saved when they die.

And so, when you're talking about the death of the Saved, just what do you mean when you say they become "spiritual bodies?" They don't cease to exist anymore than the Lost do, but they have already received Eternal Life. However, they don't actually obtain Eternal Life in the completely fulfilled sense until they are *raised from the dead.*

That means they do not have "spiritual bodies" until they are actually raised from the dead. They do *not* obtain spiritual bodies after death *before* they have been raised from the dead!

Your statements are extremely opaque on these matters because I keep raising them and you continue to double down on previous statements you've made without addressing these issues. At what point are you saying that the Saved obtain "spiritual bodies" after death--before or after their physical resurrection?

Why are you saying that no one can see "spirits?" Samuel saw the spirit of Samuel, who had a physical appearance. It was not a resurrection body, but his spirit did have an appearance.

1 Sam 28.13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?”
The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure coming up out of the earth.”
14 “What does he look like?” he asked.
“An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said.

You see, here you're including both the Lost and the Saved as if in the same condition. You're saying that all, following physical death, are physically dead. That is a truism, and nobody would dispute it.

But you are saying this in the context of the possession of Eternal Life, which you say only the Saved have in their spirits. The fact is, after the Saved die they still don't have their possession of Eternal Life completed, or consummated.

The Saved have obtained Eternal Life legally, before they have obtained their immortal bodies, and in part they do experience Eternal Life, or the spiritual life that comes from the eternal Christ. But they don't have it completely until they actually obtain their resurrection bodies!

You seem to imply they have it before death, after death, and after their resurrection, as well? As such, you're defining Eternal Life as belonging to the spirits of the Saved even before they experience their physical resurrection.

And I'm saying that exists only *legally* and in part experientially, before their resurrection. The spiritual body Paul speaks of has to do not with their pre-resurrection spirits, but rather, with the completion of their experience of obtaining Eternal Life when they are *resurrected from the dead!*

I hear this notion regularly that time and eternity are separate domains? Well, certainly that is true for God, but it certainly isn't something we, as humans, can identify with.

So why speak about eternity as if we have a bit of sense about it? That is the worst kind of speculation, and in fact a form of pedantry. We should speak in terms that God gave us to speak in, or we will end up on the edge of insanity! ;)

No, we are *not* told that our spirits have Eternal Life before the resurrection! When Jesus said we have already obtained Eternal Life, already know God, and already experience the fruits of divine virtue, and will never die, he was speaking of our *down payment* of the spiritual life presently, while awaiting the fulfillment of a legal contract we already possess. We only have Eternal Life *legally* right now--not in its complete sense, as Jesus himself taught we have not yet arrived at the Kingdom of God. It is only "near."

Lovely!

Only for he who remains in darkness and unbelief! The future is bright for the children of God! Because even though our body dies, we shall be with the Lord in heaven.

Most literally though, what is a future?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Man is NOT a spirit! He is a mortal human being with a spirit.

Clearly, the Bible describes men as spirits. They are spirits who are supposed to have bodies but who can temporarily be bodiless, or described as "naked."

Here Elisha describes himself as a "spirit."

2 Kings 5.26 But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you?

To know and enter the Kingdom of God on the new earth, man must have part in the first resurrection in TIME... As long as man has both a living physical body and living spirit in this age or the age to come, they will be living souls upon this earth and the new earth to come

Are you saying that human beings are not "souls" when they die and exist before the resurrection? If so, I don't find that to be biblical.

Rev 6.9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.

How can man possess eternal life after his body dies?

He possesses it *legally* in the same way people accept the Lord today, by receiving Christ's atonement on their behalf. We possess Eternal Life *now* by accepting it as a legal fact and as a spiritual reality, all the while knowing it will not be completely consummated until our physical resurrection.

If he does not possess eternal life when his body dies, then Christ would not have said whosoever believes in me shall NEVER DIE.

Jesus was speaking of the *legal guarantee* of our possession of Eternal Life at the resurrection.

Jesus was *not* implying that after death the Saved will obtain "spiritual bodies" in the vacuum before they are raised from the dead! We will "never die" in the sense that we will never lose our spiritual connection with the Lord.

There are only two options Randy. Either our body is not really dead when there is no sign of life, or our spirit continues to live if in dwelt with the Holy Spirit after our body dies. Which do you believe is the way faithful men possess the promise of eternal life the moment we believe?

Jesus is talking about the fact we receive, upon legal guarantee of Salvation, an immediate experience with God that can no longer be broken. We have in this sense received Eternal Life.

Eternal life is given to the spirit in men through His Holy Spirit in us. Our natural body is given immortal life when resurrected if we died in faith. The resurrected and changed human body becomes immortal possessing an eternal spirit, that complete living soul shall never die. No contradiction, just confusion on your part.

This is not what Paul meant by the "Natural Man." Paul applied that to mortal human beings who reject the things of God.

The life we receive through His Spirit in us is eternal spiritual life and shall be immortal & incorruptible physical life. Then we will be complete living souls.

We are already living souls, and will continue to be living souls when we die.

It is in spiritual resurrection that man retains a spirit (living) soul, and that only through the Holy Spirit. Only through His Spirit in our spirit does our spirit attain eternal life while we are still living in mortal flesh. Our mortal bodies cannot attain eternal life because they are all destined to die.

Our mortal bodies *rise from the dead* in a new form. The old form goes away to dust completely. People retain "living souls" whether they are Saved or not, whether they choose to live by the Spirit of God or not.

Paul says we shall be spiritual bodies, when the body of the faithful saints dies.

No he doesn't say that. He doesn't say we obtain spiritual bodies immediately at death! Rather, he says will will obtain our spiritual bodies *at the resurrection!*

No, both while alive on earth and alive in heaven when we leave this earth, we are on eternally spiritually alive through His Spirit in us. We won't be complete living souls again until after the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete and the seventh trumpet begins to sound time for this earth shall be finished.

We don't cease to be "souls" after death and before the resurrection!

The Spirit that gives us eternal spiritual life is indeed our down payment. Looks forward to the complete promise of immortal body with eternal spirit as whole living souls once again.

We don't become "whole souls again!" We are already "whole souls." If you mean that we, as human souls, aren't "whole" in the sense we are "sick," I agree. But we do not exist as "spiritual bodies" before the resurrection!

I know that is what you believe Randy. But this is not biblical and cannot be proven, it is only your opinion without proof from the Word of God. The living martyred souls John sees in heaven are there because in TIME, which a thousand years equates, they lived and reigned with Christ. (That's what 20:4 says)

We don't know Time from Eternity because we *only* know Time!

The book of Revelation was speaking to us in Time! John sees souls in heaven *before* their resurrection, under the altar in the 5th Seal.

You seemed to think that I, as a Millennialist, believed that during the Millennium the Saved exist in a bodiless state. And I corrected that, stating that I, as a Millennialist, believe we are raised from the dead at Christ's 2nd Coming and continue to exist as physical beings during the Millennium and forever.

What are you saying isn't true biblically? I said that Jesus rose bodily from the grave and ascended into heaven as a resurrected physical being. I also believe Jesus continues to exist as a physical human being in heaven and will continue to exist as such forever. And you say this isn't true why? What is your evidence that it is *not* true?

That which John says is living though they were physically dead, but John isn't seeing flesh but spiritual bodies, because in life they were faithful unto death, so through the Spirit they lived, and death could not take from them the eternal spiritual life they have through the Spirit. These faithful saints will remain in heaven a spiritual body until the Kingdom of God is complete and time (the thousand years) have ended. Then after Satan's little season, these spiritual bodies will have immortal physical bodies to live with the Lord on the new earth forever.

So you're saying the Saved in heaven have "spiritual bodies" right now? I certainly disagree with that, since I think Paul was speaking of the resurrection when he mentioned our inheritance of "spiritual bodies." The fact we already possess Eternal Life legally has nothing to do with our having obtained "spiritual bodies" prior to our resurrection, in my opinion.

If man had not been created of the Spirit breath of God and immortal body, God would not have promised they would live forever IF they obeyed Him. They had the choice to eat from any tree they chose. Except they could not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God barred the way to the tree of life, because if He had not then mankind would live forever in a state of aging, growing old, and sick and everlasting suffering.

Rather, disobedience to God's Word separated Man from God and caused him to have to die. This cancelled Plan A, but brought Plan B into view.

Adam and Eve became natural spirit, with mortal bodies, destined to die only after they disobeyed God.

What is "Natural Spirit with mortal bodies?" We are "fallen spirits" with mortal bodies. The Natural Man has a fallen spirit, and as such inclines towards the independent world as opposed to obedience to God.

Not only did Adam & Eve become natural, mortal mankind on the very day they disobeyed God, but throughout the day/age they lived they began to experience what God has promised as their bodies began the process of decay through sin and death that was the consequence of sin.

Adam and Eve were always "natural spirits," but Paul referred to the "Natural Man" after the Fall to indicate that now, after the fall into sin, we all incline towards the evil. "Natural Man" or "natural spirit" is a definition for Man.

But Paul was speaking of a *condition* that Man fell into. You're confusing these two very different senses of "Natural."

One defines who and what Man is. He is natural, or created as part of Nature. The other definition of "natural" has to do with the specific sinful condition Man has fallen into. These two distinct senses should not be confused!

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ is not saying our resurrected body will be a spiritual body. If that were true, we would not be physical, because that which is spirit is not physical. When John writes "we shall be like Him" he does not mean we will be spiritual body. If we read the verse in context, we find that John means we will be like Christ in that we will be pure, "even as he is pure." (1Jo 3)

Luke 24:39 (KJV) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

John 3:6 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Your Claim Is "False"

Scripture clearly teaches that the future resurrected "Spiritual Body" will be eternal and incorruptible, it will be exactly as the body Jesus maintained after the resurrection

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 15:42-44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[rwb]

Clearly, the Bible describes men as spirits. They are spirits who are supposed to have bodies but who can temporarily be bodiless, or described as "naked."

Here Elisha describes himself as a "spirit."

2 Kings 5.26 But Elisha said to him, “Was not my spirit with you when the man got down from his chariot to meet you?

I'm simply going to quote this verse from other translations, hoping it will help you more than if I tried to explain the function of a spirit in mankind.

2 Kings 5:26 (KJV) And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants?
2 Kings 5:26 (WEB) He said to him, Didn't my heart go with you, when the man turned from his chariot to meet you? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and olive groves and vineyards, and sheep and oxen, and male servants and female servants?
2 Kings 5:26 (ASV) And he said unto him, Went not my heart with thee, when the man turned from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards and vineyards, and sheep and oxen, and men-servants and maid-servants?
2 Kings 5:26 (YLT) And he saith unto him, `My heart went not when the man turned from off his chariot to meet thee; is it a time to take silver, and to take garments, and olives, and vines, and flock, and herd, and men-servants, and maid-servants?

As to the rest of your reply, it would be simply repeating yet again what we've already discussed. I'm tired of having to repeat myself.

 

[rwb]

Your Claim Is "False"

Scripture clearly teaches that the future resurrected "Spiritual Body" will be eternal and incorruptible, it will be exactly as the body Jesus maintained after the resurrection

Jesus Is The Lord

1 Corinthians 15:42-44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

You're only focusing on Paul's words that speak of our bodily resurrection when the last trump sounds. But that isn't the only resurrection Paul is speaking of in this passage. He goes into great detail to prove death of our body is not the end for those who die in faith. Paul shows us that when our body is sown in death, we are raised a spiritual body. Because there is BOTH a natural body and a spiritual body. The natural he tells us is like the first Adam and of the earth, but that which is spiritual is like the Lord from heaven, heavenly. Heavenly bodies are not natural, and like Adam, they are spirit, like Christ is.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, (1) How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, (2) that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (3) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, (4) The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (5) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (6) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, (7) that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

In answer to the question of how the dead are raised up, Paul, speaking of our physical body says our body must die or it will not be raised to life again. But the physical body that dies in not the body that we shall be raised up with. Paul tells us that God will give us a body after death that pleases Him. And to every seed his own body. After speaking of different kinds of flesh on earth of beasts, fishes, and birds, Paul also speaks of celestial bodies and terrestrial, and the glory of the moon, and stars. Then he says our natural body is sown in weakness but will be raised in power. Our physical body will be raised in power, because it will be immortal and incorruptible. Nothing will ever be able to harm our body again. But that body is not raised until the last trump sounds.

Paul's next statement is important and should not be missed. He tells us our natural body that will be raised in power is not the body that is raised when our body dies. The body raised when our natural body dies is not natural, but a spiritual body. Because there is both a natural body and a spiritual body, and they are not the same body. Paul explains why the natural and spiritual are not the same body because that which was natural is of the first Adam and of the earth, earthy. That's our physical body like Adams. But the spiritual body we shall be is not the natural body, but of the second man, the Lord from heaven, who is of heaven, heavenly. Paul says just as we first bear the image of the first Adam that is natural, of the earth, in death we shall also bear the image of the Lord in heaven, as heavenly body.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Paul explains why our physical body cannot be raised up when we die. Because flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God. So the body raised up when our natural body dies cannot be a physical-spirit body, since our physical body must wait in death until the Kingdom of God is complete to be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Paul shows us our mortal body will not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds. When the last trump sounds our physical body won't be resurrected a spiritual body but natural only then immortal and incorruptible.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm simply going to quote this verse from other translations, hoping it will help you more than if I tried to explain the function of a spirit in mankind.

2 Kings 5:26 (KJV) And he said unto him, Went not mine heart with thee, when the man turned again from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards, and vineyards, and sheep, and oxen, and menservants, and maidservants?
2 Kings 5:26 (WEB) He said to him, Didn't my heart go with you, when the man turned from his chariot to meet you? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and olive groves and vineyards, and sheep and oxen, and male servants and female servants?
2 Kings 5:26 (ASV) And he said unto him, Went not my heart with thee, when the man turned from his chariot to meet thee? Is it a time to receive money, and to receive garments, and oliveyards and vineyards, and sheep and oxen, and men-servants and maid-servants?
2 Kings 5:26 (YLT) And he saith unto him, `My heart went not when the man turned from off his chariot to meet thee; is it a time to take silver, and to take garments, and olives, and vines, and flock, and herd, and men-servants, and maid-servants?

As to the rest of your reply, it would be simply repeating yet again what we've already discussed. I'm tired of having to repeat myself.

The verse you're quoting uses the word "heart," which is translated by some as "spirit." They are synonymous and interchangeable terms, although "heart" may reference the emotions along with a person's being, or life essence.

When we talk about who we are it may be more helpful to use pronouns like him or you, rather than "spirit" or "heart." Or, we may use the term "soul," which again suggests that man is a spiritual creature in association with a physical body.

Really, "spirit" just seems to suggest a life, which is associated with a body normally. But since we know people exist eternally, we think of their soul as existing as a spirit, though without a body until the resurrection.

My arguments do not rest on this one verse, which I agree is not definitive. My arguments, however, rest on the assumption of man's eternal existence, along with the fact we can exist without a body. I do not call this a "spirit-body," but rather a "spirit waiting for a body."

The only difference here between the Saved and the unsaved is that the Saved have an unbroken spiritual connection with God, through Christ, whereas the unsaved do not. This does not mean the Saved have a "spirit body" prior to their resurrection.

If you grow tired of repeating yourself you should use better arguments to prove your case? Or, you just may be wrong, and repeating the same wrong arguments which I should not agree with.

 

[Phoneman777]

Jerusalem Will Rule Over Earth's Kings, When (The Beast) Takes His Future Seat There For 42 Months

Revelation 13:8KJV
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 16:13-14KJV
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Revelation 19:19KJV
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Truth, you've just lost the debate...

You said Jerusalem "will rule" which is future tense -- that's not what the angel told John. He said "reigneth" which is present tense.

Understand?

The city which the angel told John "reigneth over the kings of the Earth" at the time of John received the revelation was Rome - not Jerusalem. And, for what "woman" aka "church" is Rome famous, a church that does the apostate bidding of Satan in the name of Christ? Certainly not Judaism, which committing her apostasy 1,500 miles away...it's the Roman catholic papacy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We'll never know how many of these "protestants" are actually Jesuits in disguise. They may think they're getting away with things now, but the truth will eventually come out and they will beg God to forgive their papist loyalites and receive nothing but fiery retribution.

You think that because someone has some elements in common with a school of theology that the person *is* a member of that school of theology? Certainly not!

I personally have borrowed from a number of different schools of theology in the field of eschatology to come up with my own unique set of beliefs. There is at least some truth in virtually all beliefs held by doctrinally-orthodox believers.

We should learn from one another, and then try to refine our beliefs into a systematic theology that agrees with the best way we can. Though I'm a Postrib Premil, I can say I've borrowed elements from Historicism, Preterism, Dispensationalism, and Futurism. ;) Name-calling isn't going to get us anywhere!

 

[Truth7t7]

You're only focusing on Paul's words that speak of our bodily resurrection when the last trump sounds. But that isn't the only resurrection Paul is speaking of in this passage. He goes into great detail to prove death of our body is not the end for those who die in faith. Paul shows us that when our body is sown in death, we are raised a spiritual body. Because there is BOTH a natural body and a spiritual body. The natural he tells us is like the first Adam and of the earth, but that which is spiritual is like the Lord from heaven, heavenly. Heavenly bodies are not natural, and like Adam, they are spirit, like Christ is.

1 Corinthians 15:35-50 (KJV) But some man will say, (1) How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, (2) that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (3) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, (4) The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (5) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (6) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, (7) that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

In answer to the question of how the dead are raised up, Paul, speaking of our physical body says our body must die or it will not be raised to life again. But the physical body that dies in not the body that we shall be raised up with. Paul tells us that God will give us a body after death that pleases Him. And to every seed his own body. After speaking of different kinds of flesh on earth of beasts, fishes, and birds, Paul also speaks of celestial bodies and terrestrial, and the glory of the moon, and stars. Then he says our natural body is sown in weakness but will be raised in power. Our physical body will be raised in power, because it will be immortal and incorruptible. Nothing will ever be able to harm our body again. But that body is not raised until the last trump sounds.

Paul's next statement is important and should not be missed. He tells us our natural body that will be raised in power is not the body that is raised when our body dies. The body raised when our natural body dies is not natural, but a spiritual body. Because there is both a natural body and a spiritual body, and they are not the same body. Paul explains why the natural and spiritual are not the same body because that which was natural is of the first Adam and of the earth, earthy. That's our physical body like Adams. But the spiritual body we shall be is not the natural body, but of the second man, the Lord from heaven, who is of heaven, heavenly. Paul says just as we first bear the image of the first Adam that is natural, of the earth, in death we shall also bear the image of the Lord in heaven, as heavenly body.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Paul explains why our physical body cannot be raised up when we die. Because flesh and blood nor corruption can inherit the Kingdom of God. So the body raised up when our natural body dies cannot be a physical-spirit body, since our physical body must wait in death until the Kingdom of God is complete to be resurrected immortal and incorruptible. Paul shows us our mortal body will not be resurrected immortal & incorruptible until the last trump sounds. When the last trump sounds our physical body won't be resurrected a spiritual body but natural only then immortal and incorruptible.

The scripture below is speaking of the only resurrection that will take place, this is on the last day at the second coming (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:42-44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Truth7t7]

Truth, you've just lost the debate...

You said Jerusalem "will rule" which is future tense -- that's not what the angel told John. He said "reigneth" which is present tense.

Understand?

The city which the angel told John "reigneth over the kings of the Earth" at the time of John received the revelation was Rome - not Jerusalem. And, for what "woman" aka "church" is Rome famous, a church that does the apostate bidding of Satan in the name of Christ? Certainly not Judaism, which committing her apostasy 1,500 miles away...it's the Roman catholic papacy.

We Disagree

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great.

The Levitical High Priest Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes "The Woman", The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven Mount city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified

Revelation 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Jews/Hebrews cast dust upon their heads, weeping for the (Great City) Jerusalem

Revelation 18:19AKJV
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

 

[rwb]

The verse you're quoting uses the word "heart," which is translated by some as "spirit." They are synonymous and interchangeable terms, although "heart" may reference the emotions along with a person's being, or life essence.

Exactly! The spirit within man's body is defined - a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. The soul much like the spirit is defined - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you. Since the spirit in man with the Holy Spirit is eternal it makes sense to describe the martyred in heaven as living souls. Because when we have life, with either physical body or spiritual body we are living souls.

If someone should say "I am with you in spirit" while physically alive, it means my heart, and mind is thinking of you.

Really, "spirit" just seems to suggest a life, which is associated with a body normally. But since we know people exist eternally, we think of their soul as existing as a spirit, though without a body until the resurrection.

Both spirit and soul suggest life. Our spirit is not exactly the same as soul, because our spirit returns to God when we die. A soul and spirit cease all life functions when our body dies without His Spirit in us. It is the Spirit of God in that gives our spirit eternal life. As long as we possess eternal life we are living (spirit) souls after our body dies.

My arguments do not rest on this one verse, which I agree is not definitive. My arguments, however, rest on the assumption of man's eternal existence, along with the fact we can exist without a body. I do not call this a "spirit-body," but rather a "spirit waiting for a body."

Yes, and if we have His Spirit in us when we die, we are a spirit in heaven waiting for our immortal & incorruptible body.

The only difference here between the Saved and the unsaved is that the Saved have an unbroken spiritual connection with God, through Christ, whereas the unsaved do not. This does not mean the Saved have a "spirit body" prior to their resurrection.

Those who are saved have the life-giving Spirit from Christ in them. We receive His Spirit in life/time when we are born again, when we believe. That's what makes believers different than unbelievers. Believers don't become spiritual body in heaven until their body dies. Because the life we receive when we believe, are born again, will never end. That life is His life in our spirit that shall never die. That's how John knows that those martyred for their faith, are without a physical body, but are spiritually alive in heaven as spirit souls.

If you grow tired of repeating yourself you should use better arguments to prove your case? Or, you just may be wrong, and repeating the same wrong arguments which I should not agree with.

Maybe I grow tired of saying the same thing as many different ways I know how, because you seem never to really consider what is said. I think you would rather be right than pursue truth, and that is why I grow weary of repeating myself.

 

[rwb]

The scripture below is speaking of the only resurrection that will take place, this is on the last day at the second coming (The End)

1 Corinthians 15:42-44KJV
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I broke the passage down in a way that would be difficult for you to miss. But alas, as a postrib, premillennialists, you deny what is plain. So you can continue to deny a spiritual resurrection when our body dies, because to admit it is true, would mean a thousand years equate to TIME on the earth, and the first resurrection is not physical but spiritual re-birth we must have part of in TIME, which is what a thousand years is.

 

[Truth7t7]

I broke the passage down in a way that would be difficult for you to miss. But alas, as a postrib, premillennialists, you deny what is plain. So you can continue to deny a spiritual resurrection when our body dies, because to admit it is true, would mean a thousand years equate to TIME on the earth, and the first resurrection is not physical but spiritual re-birth we must have part of in TIME, which is what a thousand years is.

1.) I'm not pre-millennialist in my belief, there won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

2.) When a person dies, they don't partake in a "Resurrection" as you claim, this takes place at the "Second Coming" on the last day (The End)

3.) The "First Resurrection" seen in Revelation 20:4-6 will take place at the second coming on the last day (The End)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Phoneman777]

You think that because someone has some elements in common with a school of theology that the person *is* a member of that school of theology?

No.

I personally have borrowed from a number of different schools of theology in the field of eschatology to come up with my own unique set of beliefs. There is at least some truth in virtually all beliefs held by doctrinally-orthodox believers.

Nothing wrong with that. God, one inspired writer says, allows the spirit of deception to remain in the midst of the church (tares and wheat) so that we never forget our great need for His protection and continued prayer for Holy Spirit discernment.

We should learn from one another, and then try to refine our beliefs into a systematic theology that agrees with the best way we can. Though I'm a Postrib Premil, I can say I've borrowed elements from Historicism, Preterism, Dispensationalism, and Futurism.

Let's examine that - is it possible to mix EQUAL PORTIONS of all the above? Can the same Antichrist come in the past but also in the future?

Of course not.

Therefore, at some point in our "truth culling" one of these many belief systems must begin to dominate our systematic theology - and those whose theology centers around a future Antichrist must admit that at the core of their belief is Jesuit Futurism.

;) Name-calling isn't going to get us anywhere!

Would you consider it to be "name calling" if you identified a person as a "child molestor" who moved in across the street after having being paroled from serving time in prison for child molestation?

Likewise, if Jesuits formulated Futurism, then it is more than appropriate to refer to it as such, seeing that NO TRACE OF THIS TEACHING CAN BE FOUND ANYWHERE in the world before the 16th century Protestant Reformation when Historicism was indicting the Papacy as the prophesied Antichrist. ;)

 

[rwb]

1.) I'm not pre-millennialist in my belief, there won't be a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth

2.) When a person dies, they don't partake in a "Resurrection" as you claim, this takes place at the "Second Coming" on the last day (The End)

3.) The "First Resurrection" seen in Revelation 20:4-6 will take place at the second coming on the last day (The End)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

I'm not claiming anything. I'm simply repeating how Paul proves the life we receive when we die in Christ NEVER ends. We will not leave our body in death and go as spiritual body to heaven unless we have part in the first resurrection in life, which is spiritual. We must be indwelt with the life-giving Spirit of Christ when we die, or we will not be raised to heaven a living spiritual body when we die.

The first resurrection is not physical! It cannot be since the physical resurrection of all humanity will happen in the same hour that is coming, as John tells us. There will not be two separate hours for those who have done good and those who have done evil. Both will be resurrected in the same hour coming, with those who have done good resurrected first, immediately followed by the resurrection of those who have done evil.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Hour in this verse is defined - day, hour, instant, season, × short, (even-)tide, (high) time. It's usage throughout the New Testament conveys specificity. It's a very specific hour when all who are in the graves shall be resurrected for life or damnation, not two separate resurrections of the bodies, but one.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I've emboldened parts of the passage above to point some things out. John sees martyred souls alive after death, because in time, John writes is a thousand years they lived and reigned with Christ. In life, which is when all time exists, these martyred souls had lived and reigned with Christ.

Then John writes the rest of the dead, that is those who have not lived and reigned with Christ in time, shall not live again until the thousand years, referencing time, were finished. That means the dead never lived and reigned with Christ in life, which again is where time exists. The translators end vs 5 saying, "This is the first resurrection." Doing this has caused much confusion. Instead of the end of vs 5, it should begin vs. 6. Then instead of believing the rest of the dead living again is the first resurrection, we could understand John is simply stating that the rest of the dead will not live again until time, likened the thousand years were finished.

Then in vs 6 John writes of the first resurrection and those having part in it are blessed and holy, have overcome the second death, and shall be priests of God and Christ and shall live with Him in time, which a thousand years symbolizes. John is not saying the rest of the dead are the first resurrection. John is showing us that in time on earth there will be others who have part in the first resurrection who are not among the martyred souls John first sees alive in heaven. Only those who live and reign with Christ in time, a thousand years, are part of the first resurrection the martyred souls in heaven have been part of.

The rest of the dead John has already mentioned will never be blessed and holy and never overcome the second death. Because this comes only through being part of the first resurrection in time. And they won't live again until time is finished. The rest of the dead will be "the dead" who are resurrected for damnation and called to the GWTJ to be judged by what is found written in the books and the book of life. Then they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

We will not leave our body in death and go as spiritual body to heaven unless we have part in the first resurrection in life, which is spiritual.

Salvation isn't a "Resurrection" and Revelation 20:4-6 and the words "First Resurrection" doesn't pertain to the resurrection of Jesus Christ as you have been shown

We Strongly Disagree

The "First Resurrection" seen in Revelation 20:4-6 will take place at the second coming on the last day (The End)

There are (Two) resurrections on this (Last Day) the righteous are blessed to be in the (First Resurrection) to eternal life, on such the (Second Death) resurrection has no power.

1.) (First Resurrection) To Life
2.) (Second Death) Resurrection To Damnation

Revelation 20:6KJV
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The (Last Day) Resurrection Of All Below

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Corinthians 15:21-24KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

The (Last Day) Judgement

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[rwb]

Salvation isn't a "Resurrection" and Revelation 20:4-6 and the words "First Resurrection" doesn't pertain to the resurrection of Jesus Christ as you have been shown

We Strongly Disagree

We strongly Disagree has no merit. The resurrection life we must have part in is through Christ. Salvation is the gift of eternal life for those who were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, who were made alive/quickened/brought to life through the Gospel and power of His Spirit. You can deny being made spiritually alive when we were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is the first resurrection. But you cannot deny it is the resurrection of Christ, who is the first that we are made alive together with and through when we believe.

Ephesians 2:5 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

To be spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, means our spirit without Christ's spirit is a corpse that willfully commits sin, and error against God. We receive a full pardon for our sins when we are born again, forgiven from that moment. You can strongly disagree that our spirit goes from death to resurrection life through Christ when we are born again of His Spirit as long as you wish, but that doesn't make it any less truth.

 

[Phoneman777]

We Disagree

What matters is who agrees with Scripture.

You said "will rule" which is future tense. The Bible and I say, "Reigneth" which is present tense.

Are you not concerned that "reigneth" totally disqualifies Jerusalem and absolutely qualifies Rome as the city of the whore?