23 major reasons to reject the Premil doctrine!

[Ronald Nolette]

Instead of making these unfair claims can you present actual evidence?

Check my last answer to you. It is one of the big glaring ones.

Along with saying teh seals, trumpets and bowls run concurrently. All that it takes to prove you wrong is to read and list the 3 sets of 7 and list their results as written in gods Word. That is enough to prove amillenial eschatology a lie.

 

[WPM]

If they were clearly climatic then all would see it. And no I do not dick truth, I embrace, despite your pontificating to the opposite.

But as for teh time frame of Jesus earthly kingdom- yes that is the mantra. It is the only chapter in the bible that gives the time frame. sorry it is not enough for you so you have to rewrite the Word of God to fit amillenialism.

And for decades I have taught the whole counsel of eschatology.

So according to you when jesus returns to earth, He hands teh kingdom over to His father. All the prophecies that God said He will do in the and on the earth be damned! OK then. Whatever floats your boat.

Just like you screw up understanding teh seals, trumpets and bowls, you have screwed up the word Paruosia to mean the second coming. It doesn't.

No they don't. but that is because you are far more woodenly literal than you would let on to.

Because you so freely rip verses out of context to misapply them, you have made your understanding of Scripture a mess.

One example alone is enough.

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

You absolutely demand that this firstr resurrection is referring to jesus. No one who understands grammar can come off with that because the passage is absolutely, explicitly and simply referring to those who were beheaded for not taking the mark.

It further cements that truth with verse 5- "the rest of the dead". The fact that you cannot see that is very very telling.

You have zero rebuttals for the Amil position. All you have is: "what saith Revelation 20." It matters little that your view of that lone chapter is completely messed up. Notwithstanding, you avoid text after text (as above) that shows the end to be the end. This is what demolishes your speculations and what you have been taught.

 

[WPM]

Check my last answer to you. It is one of the big glaring ones.

Along with saying teh seals, trumpets and bowls run concurrently. All that it takes to prove you wrong is to read and list the 3 sets of 7 and list their results as written in gods Word. That is enough to prove amillenial eschatology a lie.

These are parallels. They speak of the same truths/events. They finish with the one final future coming of Christ. You refuse to address them because they forbid your error and what you have been taught. All we get in your posts are your private opinion and horrendous spelling/ You cannot even spell the word "the" correct. This shows your incompetence.

 

[Keraz]

The coming of the Lord is shown to be the end of the world. There is no gap of time in-between the coming of Christ, the resurrection and the end. They all belong to the one final climactic overall event.

This belief is a serious misapplication and a direct rejection of plainly stated scripture. A denial of all the Prophetic Words in Revelation 19:11 to the end of Revelation.
All of scripture up until now has been a progression, a series of stages - commencing at the Fall and now; how Jesus offers to all who will receive it, His Redemption and Salvation.
Thru all the ages, Satan has been the Deceiver and many have missed their opportunity to become one of God's people.

From many angles, we are now very close to the time the Lord will take action and commence all the Prophesied end time events. We have been told about what God has planned for our future.
To just say: Jesus will come and then thats it - all over for humans and this earth; is more that foolish; because as a Christian with a Bible, you can read the Prophesies. The Day will come when God will ask" Why didn't you take note of what My Prophets said?

 

[WPM]

This belief is a serious misapplication and a direct rejection of plainly stated scripture. A denial of all the Prophetic Words in Revelation 19:11 to the end of Revelation.
All of scripture up until now has been a progression, a series of stages - commencing at the Fall and now; how Jesus offers to all who will receive it, His Redemption and Salvation.
Thru all the ages, Satan has been the Deceiver and many have missed their opportunity to become one of God's people.

From many angles, we are now very close to the time the Lord will take action and commence all the Prophesied end time events. We have been told about what God has planned for our future.
To just say: Jesus will come and then thats it - all over for humans and this earth; is more that foolish; because as a Christian with a Bible, you can read the Prophesies. The Day will come when God will ask" Why didn't you take note of what My Prophets said?

Revelation 19 is the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." You refuse to take this literally because it exposes your beliefs. Ironically, Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

Revelation 20 takes us back to the first resurrection where Christ defeated, sin, death, Satan, Hades, and eternal punishment. It shows the strong man being spiritually bound in order that the Gentiles could be enlightened. It is currently ongoing.

 

[WPM]

Check my last answer to you. It is one of the big glaring ones.

Along with saying teh seals, trumpets and bowls run concurrently. All that it takes to prove you wrong is to read and list the 3 sets of 7 and list their results as written in gods Word. That is enough to prove amillenial eschatology a lie.

Where is your rapture in Revelation?

 

[Keraz]

Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19.

As Revelation 19 is directly followed by Rev 20, it is incumbent for you to prove it isn't and it chronologically belongs elsewhere.

Plain reading of those 2 Bible Chapters, makes a simple and continuous narrative, so shifting Rev 20 to where?, is not really sensible, logical or the right thing to do. It also incurs the curse of Rev 22:18-19.

Believing in AMill is one thing; rather silly, IMO, but to teach that theory is another; and God will Judge those who teach more severely. James 3:1

 

[WPM]

As Revelation 19 is directly followed by Rev 20, it is incumbent for you to prove it isn't and it chronologically belongs elsewhere.

Plain reading of those 2 Bible Chapters, makes a simple and continuous narrative, so shifting Rev 20 to where?, is not really sensible, logical or the right thing to do. It also incurs the curse of Rev 22:18-19.

Believing in AMill is one thing; rather silly, IMO, but to teach that theory is another; and God will Judge those who teach more severely. James 3:1

Quite the opposite. Revelation is full of recaps. Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

 

[Keraz]

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world

Rev 20 is not a recap, neither is it symbolic, allegorical; or spiritual. It describes literal events in their correct sequence.
Your forceful comments do not change the truth of Bible prophecy.

You are right, in that all the wicked, godless peoples will be gone and only the faithful peoples will go with Jesus into the Millennium.
The New heavens and earth come after the Millennium; in Eternity. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[rockytopva]

Where is your rapture in Revelation?

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. - Revelation 3:3

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. - Revelation 20:6

 

[Trekson]

(18) Premillennialists cannot even agree on the timing of the arrival of the new heavens and the new earth. They are split on whether Revelation 21 comes chronologically after Revelation 20 and therefore after the millennium kingdom and Satan’s little season in time or whether it is synonymous to that much-debated chapter and that the new heavens and new earth appears at the start of the millennium. This exposes another major weakness in the Premillennial camp: if they cannot even agree on something so simple and elementary as this in their main proof text, how can we trust their chronological approach to Revelation 19 and Revelation 20?

(19) Premil invents a 3rd group of humans that Scripture knows nothing of, that are too wicked to be raptured at the second coming and too righteous to be destroyed. It is these mortals, they argue, who populate their alleged future millennial earth. The reality is there are only two peoples in this world – the righteous and the unrighteous, those "in Adam" (the 1st birth) and those "in Christ" (2nd birth).

(20) Premil has an unhealthy obsessive focus on natural Israel, wrongly believing her to be God’s chosen people today under the new covenant. As a result, they have a mistaken fixation with natural Jerusalem in the Middle East, as if it is the epicenter of God’s workings with mankind on this earth and the place of His unconditional favor. This is wrong! They ignore much Scripture that shows that the fig tree has been cut down, the kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. Ancient Jerusalem and the temple therein were merely Old Testament imperfect shadows of the heavenly reality that was revealed at the first advent. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we have become one with spiritual believing Israel in the OT. It makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one new man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time!

(21) General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the quick (or living) and the dead,” “every man,” “every eye,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men everywhere,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race (or the full amount of all the wicked) are redefined and explained away to let Premil fit. If one was to take a precise straightforward interpretation of these phrases, one could only come to conclusion that there are no exclusions here. This shows that the Premil boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

(22) Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

(23) Premil does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

This is an impossible post to respond to but I do have a couple comments to make. 1. Not all premills are pretribs leading to different views of what the millennium consists of. Much of your post is based on assumptions of what "all" premills believe, which leads to much of it being inaccurate. 2. The scope of Rev. 19 is much smaller than you believe. It is referring to a single battle in a single valley and as in any war, people other than soldiers die. Rev. 19 is in no way speaking of a global event. 3. You say Rev. is "mostly figurative and obscure" and that is wrong as well. Rev. is probably the best known book of the bible and should be read as literal w/ the understanding that some symbolism is used but when it is it is usually explained somewhere else in the text. 4. You're right in that Rev. 20 doesn't offer any details of what the millennium will be like but there are several OT prophecies that do. 5. If you can look around at this world the way it is and say "yep this is God's kingdom at it's finest", that where we are is already the culmination of human history and God's plan for mankind ended at the cross, you are hopelessly lost and confused w/ very little understanding of how to "rightly divide the word of truth"!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where is your rapture in Revelation?

The rapture is not mentioned in Revelation. That is a red herring on your part. It is mentioned in Thess. and that was all God decided it needed to be mentioned.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

These are parallels. They speak of the same truths/events. They finish with the one final future coming of Christ. You refuse to address them because they forbid your error and what you have been taught. All we get in your posts are your private opinion and horrendous spelling/ You cannot even spell the word "the" correct. This shows your incompetence.

NO they don't speak of the same events. They have similarities, but glaring differences. That makes them separate and different events. But to an allegorist, different results and differing methods can be rewritten to fit the amil agenda.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have zero rebuttals for the Amil position. All you have is: "what saith Revelation 20." It matters little that your view of that lone chapter is completely messed up. Notwithstanding, you avoid text after text (as above) that shows the end to be the end. This is what demolishes your speculations and what you have been taught.

Well REv. 20 is all that is needed to define the time frame of Jesus earthly kingdom. He said He would return. He said He would set up a kingdom. He said the Jews would see Him again when a condition is met.

then REv. 20 tell s us this:

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

That there were a group of people who were killed and resurrected (the first resurrection of Rev. 20), and they lived and reigned with Jesus for 1,000 years.

You have to rewrite Scripture to make it mean what is written and commonly understood.

If my mispelling "the" is so offensive to you put me on ignore. If not put your big boy pants on and discuss without throwing the tools of a desperate person- ad-hominems.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

These are parallels. They speak of the same truths/events. They finish with the one final future coming of Christ. You refuse to address them because they forbid your error and what you have been taught. All we get in your posts are your private opinion and horrendous spelling/ You cannot even spell the word "the" correct. This shows your incompetence.

Well let us look at the seal trumpets and bowls and see why the bible shows they are not the same events nor run concurrently

Seal 1: Rider on white horse conquering
Trumpet 1: 1/3 of grass and trees burned
Vial 1: grievous sore upon those with the mar

Seal 2: World war
Trumpet 2: 1/3 of the seas became AS blood 1/3 creatures died and 1/3 ships destroyed
Vial 2: Seas became blood and ALL creatures died therein.

Seal 3: hyper inflation and famine
Trumpet 3: Wormwood falls and 1/3 fresh waters become poisoned
Vial 3: ALL fresh waters poisoned

Seal 4: 1/4 of humanity killed
Trumpet 4: 1/3 part of heavenly bodies struck and light reduced
Vial 4: Sun touched and heat greatly increased.

onto the 7th of each:

7th seal: silence in heaven and the 7 angels given 7 trumpets.
7th trumpet: Announcement that the word now belongs to Jesus
note: Scripture tells us that the seventh angel sounds for a long time
7th vial:
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

So a normal, natural reading ,accepting words as commonly used we know these are events that run consecutively not concurrently.

 

[WPM]

The rapture is not mentioned in Revelation. That is a red herring on your part. It is mentioned in Thess. and that was all God decided it needed to be mentioned.

Exactly. It is not there because your Pretrib rapture is a figment of your imagination. So, where in Thessalonians does it teach a tribulation period after a future rapture - never mind your invented 7-year trib?

 

[WPM]

Well REv. 20 is all that is needed to define the time frame of Jesus earthly kingdom. He said He would return. He said He would set up a kingdom. He said the Jews would see Him again when a condition is met.

then REv. 20 tell s us this:

Revelation 20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

That there were a group of people who were killed and resurrected (the first resurrection of Rev. 20), and they lived and reigned with Jesus for 1,000 years.

You have to rewrite Scripture to make it mean what is written and commonly understood.

If my mispelling "the" is so offensive to you put me on ignore. If not put your big boy pants on and discuss without throwing the tools of a desperate person- ad-hominems.

You just admitted my allegation in your post. Rev 20 is all you have. Notwithstanding, you force a faulty private meaning on that much-debated text that contradicts the climactic detail of the rest of Scripture.

Where in that chapter does it teach Jesus introducing an earthly kingdom at the second coming?

Where in that chapter does it teach the Jews would see Him again when a condition is met?

 

[WPM]

Well let us look at the seal trumpets and bowls and see why the bible shows they are not the same events nor run concurrently

Seal 1: Rider on white horse conquering
Trumpet 1: 1/3 of grass and trees burned
Vial 1: grievous sore upon those with the mar

Seal 2: World war
Trumpet 2: 1/3 of the seas became AS blood 1/3 creatures died and 1/3 ships destroyed
Vial 2: Seas became blood and ALL creatures died therein.

Seal 3: hyper inflation and famine
Trumpet 3: Wormwood falls and 1/3 fresh waters become poisoned
Vial 3: ALL fresh waters poisoned

Seal 4: 1/4 of humanity killed
Trumpet 4: 1/3 part of heavenly bodies struck and light reduced
Vial 4: Sun touched and heat greatly increased.

onto the 7th of each:

7th seal: silence in heaven and the 7 angels given 7 trumpets.
7th trumpet: Announcement that the word now belongs to Jesus
note: Scripture tells us that the seventh angel sounds for a long time
7th vial:
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

So a normal, natural reading ,accepting words as commonly used we know these are events that run consecutively not concurrently.

A plain reading of each recap shows the end of each parallel to be the end. The flaws in your argument in relation to Revelation 20, I believe, primarily emanate from your failure to recognise the seven symbolic cycles existing in Revelation. Therefore, you fail to see how Revelation 20 is the commencement of the last parallel.

An example of the parallels is seen in the fact that Babylon’s destruction at the end of the sixth parallel Revelation 17-19 is also recorded at the end of parallels 4 & 5 revealing the awful apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the appearance of Christ at the Second Advent – the day of God’s wrath. They all graphically portray the elements and the wicked being destroyed, albeit in distinct yet similar symbolic language.

Notwithstanding, when we look at the conclusion of these three parallels before us, we see that they culminate in the all-consummating destruction of Babylon. Significantly, after a vivid record of the final destruction they all immediately commence with a new corresponding viewing, albeit concentrating on another aspect of the great conflict between good and evil. Revelation 19 is therefore a record of the end of the world, which sees the destruction of this earth and the wicked that are in it.

The complete and absolute destruction of Babylon is alluded to in several of the symbolic parallels in Revelation. However, Premillennialists consistently mistakenly advance Revelation 17-19 as the sole record of the destruction of Babylon, though it is just one of three different explicit references (or repeats) of its complete and final annihilation. All, significantly, occur at the end of each of the seven respective parallels. Moreover, Revelation 17-19 is only one of seven records of the final day of God’s wrath, all of which notably occur at the end of each parallel. Notwithstanding, all are viewed from a slightly different camera-view, although sometimes using varying terminology, yet, revealing the same immediate and utter destruction of the world and the wicked.

Whilst, we will only look here at the three direct descriptions of the destruction of Babylon (at the termination of parallels 4, 5 & 6), parallels 1, 2, 3 & 7 also reveal the apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the appearance of Christ at the Second Advent – the day of God’s wrath. They all graphically portray the elements and the wicked being destroyed, albeit in distinct yet similar symbolic language.

Notwithstanding, when we look at the conclusion of these three parallels before us, we see that they culminate in the all-consummating destruction of Babylon. Significantly, after a vivid record of the final destruction they all immediately commence with a new corresponding viewing, albeit concentrating on another aspect of the great conflict between good and evil. Revelation 19 is therefore a record of the end of the world, which sees the destruction of this earth and the wicked that are in it.

The destruction of Babylon represents the fall of false religion prior to the Lord's return. Revelation 18 is therefore before the
catching away in Revelation 19. Your argument re this is therefore inappropriate.

Parallel 4

Revelation 14:8-14, 19-20 says, "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication … The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation … cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress.”

Parallel 5

Revelation 16:14-20 says, "the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

Parallel 6

Revelation 18:1-3 says, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies … he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of almighty God.”

Parallels 1, 2, 3 & 7 also reveal the apocalyptic wrath that accompanies the day of God’s wrath – the elements and the wicked being totally destroyed in them ALL. What is more, if the conclusion of parallels 4 & 5 explicitly describe the final destruction of Babylon at the second coming, and if both suddenly terminate at that great climactic event, why do Premils so desperately require the 6th parallel to be anything different? Why must they insist on Revelation 20 being a chronological continuation on, instead of being the start of the seventh parallel?

Parallels 4 & 5 were a record of the same destruction as that revealed in Rev 18-19. In the other two parallels they were followed by the commencement of a new parallel.

Premils need to compare all three accounts above (in blue). They will find that they relate to exact same event and the one and only destruction of Babylon. The wording of each passage is near identical. I believe the accounts make it abundantly clear that the fall of Babylon relates solely to the end. In all 7 accounts, God waits to the end of the age to destroy the wicked systems of this world – Babylon being one of them.

Whilst I accept that every enemy of heaven has already been completely defeated at the cross, we are now simply waiting for their final put down. Babylon, being one of these enemies (namely false religion), has not fallen yet - this must therefore still be future. This must occur at, or just prior to, the second coming. Have there been three distinct annihilations of Babylon??? If we are going to take literal statements literal then please tell me what group of people (which are left behind) are excluded from “the flesh of all men.” I can't see where we can find surviving millennial inhabitants from this all-embracive supper or why we need a 1,000 years of Christ reigning (evidently unsuccessfully) during this age of Aquarius, that in reality is a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial age.

Premils need to compare all three accounts above (in blue). They will find that they relate to exact same event and the one and only destruction of Babylon. The wording of each passage is near identical. I believe the accounts make it abundantly clear that the fall of Babylon relates solely to the end. In all 7 accounts, God waits to the end of the age to destroy the wicked systems of this world – Babylon being one of them.

Whilst I accept that every enemy of heaven has already been completely defeated at the cross, we are now simply waiting for their final put down. Babylon, being one of these enemies (namely false religion), has not fallen yet - this must therefore still be future. This must occur at, or just prior to, the second coming. Have there been three distinct annihilations of Babylon??? If we are going to take literal statements literal then please tell me what group of people (which are left behind) are excluded from “the flesh of all men.” I can't see where we can find surviving millennial inhabitants from this all-embracive supper or why we need a 1,000 years of Christ reigning (evidently unsuccessfully) during this age of Aquarius, that in reality is a sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial age.

 

[WPM]

This is an impossible post to respond to but I do have a couple comments to make.

I understand.

1. Not all premills are pretribs leading to different views of what the millennium consists of. Much of your post is based on assumptions of what "all" premills believe, which leads to much of it being inaccurate.

Not really. I've made a lot of generalities that cover the full gamut of Premillennialism. These are classic errors i see in the general position.

2. The scope of Rev. 19 is much smaller than you believe. It is referring to a single battle in a single valley and as in any war, people other than soldiers die. Rev. 19 is in no way speaking of a global event.

According to who? The beast and his army embrace all who are not in the Lamb's book of life. That sure sounds all-inclusive to me.

What degree of influence does the “the beast,” “antichrist,” the “mystery of iniquity,” truly possess according to Scripture?

Revelation 13:3-4 states, “all the world wondered [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled] after the beast. And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast.”

Revelation 13:8 states, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

We are given much illumination and help in establishing the identity of, and the extent of those who pay homage to, the beast in this passage. In fact, it is extremely difficult to ignore the extraordinary influence of the beast outlined in the whole book of Revelation. The aforementioned verse tells us that his adherents include every single person “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Therefore, the beast specifically and symbolically relates to some all-embracing Christ-rejecting structure that includes the sum total of the non-righteous – those outside of the book of life.

Revelation 17:8: “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder [Gr. thaumazo, or admired and marveled], whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

We cannot in anyway underestimate the power and sway of the beast. His allegiance is comprehensive. In fact, every single human being whose name is not written in the Lamb’s book of life from the foundation of the earth ends up submitting to him.

Regardless of what or who this beast is, the wicked in total give homage or adherence to it, and also receive his mark. Moreover, God’s true elect do not conform or bow down to it, or even receive his mark. Such a truth meticulously complements the oft-repeated biblical truth that there are only two types of people in this world – saved and lost, sheep and goats.

If this is an evil spirit, then it is a very powerful evil spirit. In fact, it seems to control every unsaved person. Those who do not possess the Holy Spirit are governed by this spirit; all that “were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.”

3. You say Rev. is "mostly figurative and obscure" and that is wrong as well. Rev. is probably the best known book of the bible and should be read as literal w/ the understanding that some symbolism is used but when it is it is usually explained somewhere else in the text.

Your literalism doesn't add up. It contradicts the reality and the teaching of the said book. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolized) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

Signs (John 4:48)
Signify (Acts 25:27)
Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)

4. You're right in that Rev. 20 doesn't offer any details of what the millennium will be like but there are several OT prophecies that do.

Exactly! Because Rev 20 does not teach what Premils teach they have to cobble Scripture together to force it to say what they have been taught. This is called butchering Scripture. This is called eisegesis.

5. If you can look around at this world the way it is and say "yep this is God's kingdom at it's finest", that where we are is already the culmination of human history and God's plan for mankind ended at the cross, you are hopelessly lost and confused w/ very little understanding of how to "rightly divide the word of truth"!

The kingdom Premils promote does not exist in Rev 20 or anywhere else. It is fake news. The reality is, Scripture teaches:

• The kingdom of God has already spiritually arrived.
• Jesus defeated every enemy and removed every impediment to the eternal liberation of God's people.
• Jesus is currently ruling over the nations (including His enemies) at the right hand of majesty.
• The redeemed have now been empowered with authority to enforce Christ's great victory of 2000 years ago the great commission. They have been given authority over Satan and his minions. Being "in Christ," they currently rule in life and in death with Him.
• Satan's kingdom (the Gentile nations) has been invaded by the Gospel. The Gentiles have been enlightened for 2000 years. They are now without excuse.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Exactly. It is not there because your Pretrib rapture is a figment of your imagination. So, where in Thessalonians does it teach a tribulation period after a future rapture - never mind your invented 7-year trib?

YOu ask inane questions, which you know there is no answer to so you can go "gotcha"! But as for Thesselonians and being pulled before the trib (the wrath of God)

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

YOu demand evidence from others you could never even hope to list in quantity.