Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Status
Not open for further replies.

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Correct. Agree.



IMO there is a wonderment, regarding a possibility of Jesus’ appearance to men in the OT, (of course OT men not knowing His name,) but as some OT men had visible encounters...with “angels” that appeared to them “having the look of a man”, even at times “calling” them a man, but knowing they were in the presence of a SPIRIT ANGEL....and on some occasions...OT men having the feeling of being in the presence of God Himself....and delineating that presence....from AN angel’s presence...(ie. AN angel OF the LORD) ... TO: the specific...THE angel of the LORD.


THE angel of the LORD, seems to hold a different significance in the OT...as more Directly being in the presence of God...perhaps JESUS before His incarnation as THE SON of God.

And THE angel of the LORD in the OT, being asked directly, What is his name....and His REPLY, “why do you ask, KNOWING IT IS SECRET”.

Certainly not saying a man CALLING an Angel, a man, means he is a man; or a man CALLING Jesus an Angel, means He IS an Angel...

Jesus IS a Spirit without a Beginning. Not subject to Die.
Angels ARE created spirits with Beginnings. Not subject to Die.



Yes. Agree.
The Angel of the Lord is unique and speaks as God himself. I believe he could be Jesus, he isn’t an ordinary Angel. Maybe Messenger of the Lord would be a better translation. The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “theangel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: stunnedbygrace

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,509
12,929
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Angel of the Lord is unique and speaks as God himself. I believe he could be Jesus, he isn’t an ordinary Angel. Maybe Messenger of the Lord would be a better translation. The precise identity of the “angel of the Lord” is not given in the Bible. However, there are many important “clues” to his identity. There are Old and New Testament references to “angels of the Lord,” “an angel of the Lord,” and “theangel of the Lord.” It seems when the definite article “the” is used, it is specifying a unique being, separate from the other angels. The angel of the Lord speaks as God, identifies Himself with God, and exercises the responsibilities of God (Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; 2 Samuel 24:16; Zechariah 1:12; 3:1; 12:8). In several of these appearances, those who saw the angel of the Lord feared for their lives because they had “seen the Lord.” Therefore, it is clear that in at least some instances, the angel of the Lord is a theophany, an appearance of God in physical form
Yes. Agree.

God has a agenda.
Everything He Created and Made He did so for His Pleasure.

IMO, God does not RELY solely on His Created Servants to Accomplish His Desired End Results of a Holy Heaven and Holy Earth with Holy Occupants...

We get a snippet in Scripture, (which I think IS a KEY-NOTE passage) of God “purposing” IN HIMSELF, to Accomplish His Own Desire.

We know God has given man, little by little, bit by bit knowledge to ponder...and No doubt God has been the World’s Greatest Mysterious Wonder....

I love this...—->

Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

John 10:
[30] I and my father are one.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wynona

JunChosen

Well-Known Member
Apr 7, 2020
1,836
409
83
Los Angeles
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
In Genesis Chapter 16, we read about "the Angel of the Lord" which is translated as a "theophany" which means a manifestation or appearance of God or a god to a person. [Genesis 3:8; and then quotes Genesis 16:7-14].

But note what the angel of the Lord said unto Hagar in verse 10, "I will multiply thy seed." Can a mere angel who is a ministering entity create anything???

Indeed, the Angel of the Lord can be none other than the manifestation of the Lord Jesus Himself.

To God Be The Glory
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,193
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Jesus is not Michael the archangel. The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael (or any other angel, for that matter). Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels: “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The hierarchy of heavenly beings is made clear in this passage—angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshiped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel (not worthy of worship
There are a lot of things in Hebrews 1:5-8 that when compared with other scripture take on a completely different connotation....e.g. “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’?”

Jesus, in his pre-human existence, was always called God’s “only begotten son” (John 3:16) and that designation means that no other “son of God” is like Jesus and therefore, his uniqueness is what Paul was alluding to here. The pre-human Jesus had a name, which I believe is Michael. Jesus has many names and roles as “God’s holy servant”. Jesus has a God, even in heaven. (Acts 4:27; Rev 3:12)

“And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’”

So sending his “firstborn” into the world means that the spirit being who became Jesus, was already God’s “firstborn”...in fact Paul called him “the firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15)...which means that he was the very first creation of his Father. Revelation 3:14 is where Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”.
Therefore, the angels would never have “worshipped” him even though he was their Commander. They would do “obeisance”, which is the same word, and has the connotation of rendering honor and respect to one who is not God.....”worship” belongs only to the Father. (Luke 4:8)

“In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’”

Again, mistranslation is giving a false impression here. The son is not addressed as “God” here, but is implied in the way it is translated into English. If you read the very next verse, which most people ignore, it says...”God, your God, anointed you.” So Jesus has a God who anointed him, and upon his return to heaven, he resumed his position, but with the reward of having “all authority” GIVEN to him by his God and Father. (Matt 28:18)
If Jesus was God he would already have “all authority”.

So this is why Bible study has to involve ALL of scripture.....not just cherry picked verses that seem to back up what many want to believe. The Bible explains itself if we let it.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are a lot of things in Hebrews 1:5-8 that when compared with other scripture take on a completely different connotation....e.g. “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’?”

Jesus, in his pre-human existence, was always called God’s “only begotten son” (John 3:16) and that designation means that no other “son of God” is like Jesus and therefore, his uniqueness is what Paul was alluding to here. The pre-human Jesus had a name, which I believe is Michael. Jesus has many names and roles as “God’s holy servant”. Jesus has a God, even in heaven. (Acts 4:27; Rev 3:12)

“And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God’s angels worship Him.’”

So sending his “firstborn” into the world means that the spirit being who became Jesus, was already God’s “firstborn”...in fact Paul called him “the firstborn of all creation” (Col 1:15)...which means that he was the very first creation of his Father. Revelation 3:14 is where Jesus calls himself “the beginning of God’s creation”.
Therefore, the angels would never have “worshipped” him even though he was their Commander. They would do “obeisance”, which is the same word, and has the connotation of rendering honor and respect to one who is not God.....”worship” belongs only to the Father. (Luke 4:8)

“In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’”

Again, mistranslation is giving a false impression here. The son is not addressed as “God” here, but is implied in the way it is translated into English. If you read the very next verse, which most people ignore, it says...”God, your God, anointed you.” So Jesus has a God who anointed him, and upon his return to heaven, he resumed his position, but with the reward of having “all authority” GIVEN to him by his God and Father. (Matt 28:18)
If Jesus was God he would already have “all authority”.

So this is why Bible study has to involve ALL of scripture.....not just cherry picked verses that seem to back up what many want to believe. The Bible explains itself if we let it.
Yes it also explains how Jesus can have a God but be divine himself.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,193
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Yes it also explains how Jesus can have a God but be divine himself.
If you do a study on the word “theos” (god) in Greek, you will see by the definition in Strongs that this word “god” in Greek means....any divine person....but divinity does not always mean deity.
Satan is called “theos” but he is not a deity in the same sense that Jehovah is.

Someone who is divinely appointed can also have this word applied to them. God himself called his appointed judges in Israel “gods” but obviously they were not deities. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus is divinely appointed and given authority that he previously didn’t have. (Matt28:18)
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you do a study on the word “theos” (god) in Greek, you will see by the definition in Strongs that this word “god” in Greek means....any divine person....but divinity does not always mean deity.
Satan is called “theos” but he is not a deity in the same sense that Jehovah is.

Someone who is divinely appointed can also have this word applied to them. God himself called his appointed judges in Israel “gods” but obviously they were not deities. (John 10:31-36)

Jesus is divinely appointed and given authority that he previously didn’t have. (Matt28:18)
Since this is getting into a subject that is restricted on this forum I’ll refrain from further commenting and return to the subject of the OP
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
If you do a study on the word “theos” (god) in Greek, you will see by the definition in Strongs that this word “god” in Greek means....any divine person....but divinity does not always mean deity.
More nonsense from Aunty Jane. False gods are NOT divine persons but demons (called "devils" in the KJB). We all know that there are false gods mentioned in the Bible so this is not news. But what should really concern you is the false god taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses in place of the true God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The New World Translation of the Watchtower Society has made Jesus into a false "god" (John 1:1). But that does not bother you in the least because you have been brainwashed to believe a lie.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JunChosen

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,193
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
More nonsense from Aunty Jane. False gods are NOT divine persons but demons (called "devils" in the KJB). We all know that there are false gods mentioned in the Bible so this is not news. But what should really concern you is the false god taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses in place of the true God -- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The New World Translation of the Watchtower Society has made Jesus into a false "god" (John 1:1). But that does not bother you in the least because you have been brainwashed to believe a lie.
What if you have? What then?
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,193
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Since this is getting into a subject that is restricted on this forum I’ll refrain from further commenting and return to the subject of the OP
I hate the censorship.....it stifles open minded debate and closes minds.

I wish they would ban the ones who can’t keep a civil tongue....not the most important subjects in the Bible.....who is God and who is Jesus? The scriptures speak for themselves.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I hate the censorship.....it stifles open minded debate and closes minds.

I wish they would ban the ones who can’t keep a civil tongue....not the most important subjects in the Bible.....who is God and who is Jesus? The scriptures speak for themselves.
The debates on this topic go nowhere. Neither side is persuaded by the other. It did lead to some interesting discussions but I don’t think anyone changed their views. As far as people who can’t be civil I’m on another forum that doesn’t permit flaming and goading but enforcement seems to be biased in favor of liberals, so I’m glad there is a little more tolerance here.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keturah

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,193
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
The debates on this topic go nowhere. Neither side is persuaded by the other. It did lead to some interesting discussions but I don’t think anyone changed their views. As far as people who can’t be civil I’m on another forum that doesn’t permit flaming and goading but enforcement seems to be biased in favor of liberals, so I’m glad there is a little more tolerance here.
The one thing that these topics do achieve is, that having heard all views, others can make their choices knowing how the scriptures can be read....in a biased way with cherry picked verses out of context, or to read rebuttals that challenge that interpretation and give added food for thought.

The one thing that dispels ignorance is knowledge...but “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”.....we need to know the whole truth and base our assessment on the big picture, not on a collection of pieces in just one corner. All the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle have their place, but it’s not till you join them all up that you see the picture on the box.....there should be no holes with pieces missing.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The one thing that these topics do achieve is, that having heard all views, others can make their choices knowing how the scriptures can be read....in a biased way with cherry picked verses out of context, or to read rebuttals that challenge that interpretation and give added food for thought.

The one thing that dispels ignorance is knowledge...but “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing”.....we need to know the whole truth and base our assessment on the big picture, not on a collection of pieces in just one corner. All the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle have their place, but it’s not till you join them all up that you see the picture on the box.....there should be no holes with pieces missing.
You think you’re the only one who has the box with the picture on it, that yours is the only religion that looks at the big picture and looks at all of scripture. You’re wrong.
 

Aunty Jane

Well-Known Member
Sep 16, 2021
5,074
2,193
113
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
You think you’re the only one who has the box with the picture on it, that yours is the only religion that looks at the big picture and looks at all of scripture. You’re wrong.
I tried a lot of 'boxes' with lots of different 'pictures' before I settled on the only one that made sense to me. They were the only ones trying their best to do what Jesus told them to do, not making excuses for why they weren't. None of the others did and still don't.

Open a thread if you want to discuss these things....

If I am wrong, or if you are wrong...we will all know soon enough.
 

RLT63

Well-Known Member
Apr 24, 2022
3,256
1,842
113
Montgomery
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I tried a lot of 'boxes' with lots of different 'pictures' before I settled on the only one that made sense to me. They were the only ones trying their best to do what Jesus told them to do, not making excuses for why they weren't. None of the others did and still don't.

Open a thread if you want to discuss these things....

If I am wrong, or if you are wrong...we will all know soon enough.
There are already threads addressing JWs and what they believe. You might want to start one on cherry picking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keturah

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,476
17,040
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There are some compelling arguments made. But I think in the end to say Jesus is Michael the Arch Angel is sketchy ground. Is Gabriel Jesus also. Then why use a different name. Why specify "angel" and the name "Michael"? I think I'll take the scriptures literally when it's applicable.

Jesus is part of the Godhead, as the Savior and Son of God. What did God say about angels:

Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RLT63 and Keturah

ElieG12

Well-Known Member
Oct 8, 2022
915
266
63
Atlanta
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How come the JWs were the leaders in cherry picking?
You should stop and get back on topic. I have noticed that you have diverted it towards Jehovah's Witnesses and what you think of them. There are many opinions in the world that favor Jehovah's Witnesses over some other self-proclaimed "Christian" sects... but that is not the issue here.

Furthermore, the belief that Michael the Archangel is Jesus is not exclusive or original to Jehovah's Witnesses. Find out what this topic is about.

1) Ernst Wilhelm Hengstenberg, neo-Lutheran, said "Michael is nobody but Christ."

2) Johann Peter Lange, a Calvinist, in his Commentary on Revelation 12:7 wrote: "We understand that Michael . . . is, from the beginning, Christ on display as a warrior against Satan."

3) Joseph Benson, a Methodist, stated that the description of Michael as found in the Bible "manifestly points to the Messiah" in his Commentary on Dan. 12:1.

Although since 1919 especially, Jehovah's Witnesses have examined the Scriptures completely independently of the religious leaders and theologians of Christendom, the fact that other Biblical scholars have reached the same conclusions on this topic shows that it is a serious subject worth analyzing by all in general.

The reasons to understand that Jesus is the archangel Michael have been exposed and until now they have not been refuted. HONEST Bible students should meditate on all the edges before reaching a conclusion in their studies, and if it is necessary that they rectify some traditional idea that they have held for a long time, then they do it without delay... because the truth does not admit falsehoods (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Aunty Jane
Status
Not open for further replies.