Does the Bible identify "Babylon"?

[ewq1938]

That's not quite true. The description of Zech. 4:1 says "...and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:" This is a description of a menorah that is oil-based. A menorah looks like a candlestick w/ seven flames, the oil runs up through the pipes to fuel the flames. They, the "two anointed ones" are the candlesticks in Rev. 11 which is a metaphor for "light bringers" and the HS (olive oil) provides the power they use in their ministry.

It might also say this:

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

 

[Always Believing]

2 Jhn 9 says whoever doesn't abide in the doctrines of Christ has no real relationship with God. It's not enough to accept Jesus' divinity and everything as an intellectual exercise. True Christians cannot call God a liar and honestly lay claim to having a good relationship with Him. There is a reason why Paul was inspired by God to pronounce a double curse on literally any angel or man that dared to preach anything that was contrary to the gospel he preached.

I'm only saying that some time or other we've all believed some tradition or teaching that is not true, and we find out it's not by the Bible. That's doesn';t mean we aren't still pure of heart and living righteously by His grace.

Now if someone believe a doctrine or tradition or heresy that results in ungodliness, then that's different.

But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[Trekson]

This is not scriptural but a mixing and distortion of what is given, Johns says what he saw and the prophecy is within the words he gives. The woman was the church who by this time was changing from the first converts from Israel to all the expanse of the empire so soon was more gentiles than Jews. And who took over the Christians from there, it was the church at Rome, look in any history of Western Civilization and you will see..

Well if you're going to read a book of prophecy like Rev. as a history book, understanding will never come.

 

[Trekson]

It might also say this:

Zec 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?

I guess it's all in how one reads it. I read it like: the two olive trees are the two witnesses and the oil they give to the pipes is the HS and when they are emptying the oil out of themselves, they are lighting themselves as candlesticks bringing light to a world hung-up in darkness and not hiding their light under a bushel.

 

[ewq1938]

I guess it's all in how one reads it.

Like reading it wrongly? It is clear when reading correctly that the two olive trees provide oil for the oil lamps (candlesticks) which are two churches. The two olives trees are not also the two candlesticks nor are the two candlesticks the two olive trees.

What we have here are two individuals, and two groups of people of unknown number. These form the two witnesses.

 

[Trekson]

Like reading it wrongly? It is clear when reading correctly that the two olive trees provide oil for the oil lamps (candlesticks) which are two churches. The two olives trees are not also the two candlesticks nor are the two candlesticks the two olive trees.

What we have here are two individuals, and two groups of people of unknown number. These form the two witnesses.

I'm a shopkeeper and a father, I'm a hobbyist and a shopkeeper. It starts w/ two, the "and" clarifies that they are 'both". A normal, proper reading sees two men, anything else is reading something into the passage that isn't there.

 

[Hobie]

Well if you're going to read a book of prophecy like Rev. as a history book, understanding will never come.

Prophecy is history as it is the timeline of what will happen, and from Johns perspective this was going to happen. We see how history shows that basically all the customs and idolatry of Pagan Rome slowly was let into the Christian church, led by those in Rome. The corruption of compromise and conformity was restrained for a time by the fierce persecutions which the early church suffered under paganism. But as persecution ceased, and Christianity was accepted, then she let in the old beliefs of pagan priests and rulers and allowed corruption and traditions to replace the pure truth of the church. As long as the Roman Emperors were persecuting or just tolerating the church, there was no way for the "mystery of iniquity" to be manifested.

But as the empire grew weak, and Constantine began giving the new entity a place to grow and removed the restraint, then the "mystery of iniquity" started to blossom. It fought all the other parts of the early church to secure control of the civil power and make them conform to the dogmas and tradition of this apostate form of religion of Rome. The faithful in the early church fought against it but it spread from Rome to Alexandria and the rest of the empire, so they decided to separate from the apostate church if she would not clear itself from the pagan falsehood and idolatry. But they then became the enemies of the false church and soon they were being excommunicated and called 'heretics' or worse. We then see the laws being put in place for this apostacy, as in 313 AD, the Edict of Milan ordered the restoration of property to the Christians. But it was quickly seized upon and twisted to secure the imperial recognition and the legal establishment of the Catholic Church.

By the the sixth century the papacy had become firmly established and the Papacy taken charge without any scriptural authority. Its seat of power was fixed in the imperial city, and the bishop of Rome was declared to be the head over the entire church. It is one of the leading doctrines of this apostate church is that the pope is the visible head of the universal church of Christ, invested with supreme authority over bishops and preachers in all the world. And we see that the pope has been given the very titles of divinity, called the ‘Lord God the Pope,’ and has been declared infallible.

The only power in history that clearly fits all these prophecies is the Papacy and this was clear to the Bible scholars from the Middle Ages on, and even today, But now as most churches of the Reformation have started to drift back to Rome under the drive to ecumenism it puts out, most Christians have moved away from this interpretation.

 

[Timtofly]

Like reading it wrongly? It is clear when reading correctly that the two olive trees provide oil for the oil lamps (candlesticks) which are two churches. The two olives trees are not also the two candlesticks nor are the two candlesticks the two olive trees.

What we have here are two individuals, and two groups of people of unknown number. These form the two witnesses.

The problem with this interpretation is you are saying two brick buildings are fed by two OT individuals.

There is only one church when it comes to being a witness. Not two mega churches at the Second Coming.

Even two individuals make up a church. So your interpretation could mean just 2 churches of 2 individuals. So there will be at least 4 individuals going around preaching the gospel as your two candlesticks.

Besides there are hundreds of denominational groups. Are you saying God is going to choose just 2 flavors to represent the gospel?

The point is that there are 4 individual witnesses. 2 from the OT and 2 from the NT. The 2 individual witnesses from the NT are still only 2 humans, just like two humans from the OT. 2 plus 2 equals 4. Not 2 plus 2 (x) equals 4. But if you want to solve for x, it would be 1 not an indefinite amount.

It is my interpretation these 4 are also symbolized by the 4 beast who stand as witnesses:

"and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,"

Either these are literal beast, or symbolic for the 4 witnesses mentioned later in chapter 11.

 

[ewq1938]

I'm a shopkeeper and a father, I'm a hobbyist and a shopkeeper. It starts w/ two, the "and" clarifies that they are 'both".

Are you the shop keeper and the people who come into the shop? No. An olive tree is different than a candlestick. There is a difference between a prophet, and a church the prophet gives his prophecies to.

A normal, proper reading sees two men, anything else is reading something into the passage that isn't there.

That is a normal, improper, uneducated reading that doesn't understand what a candlestick is.

 

[Trekson]

Prophecy is history as it is the timeline of what will happen, and from Johns perspective this was going to happen. We see how history shows that basically all the customs and idolatry of Pagan Rome slowly was let into the Christian church, led by those in Rome. The corruption of compromise and conformity was restrained for a time by the fierce persecutions which the early church suffered under paganism. But as persecution ceased, and Christianity was accepted, then she let in the old beliefs of pagan priests and rulers and allowed corruption and traditions to replace the pure truth of the church. As long as the Roman Emperors were persecuting or just tolerating the church, there was no way for the "mystery of iniquity" to be manifested.

But as the empire grew weak, and Constantine began giving the new entity a place to grow and removed the restraint, then the "mystery of iniquity" started to blossom. It fought all the other parts of the early church to secure control of the civil power and make them conform to the dogmas and tradition of this apostate form of religion of Rome. The faithful in the early church fought against it but it spread from Rome to Alexandria and the rest of the empire, so they decided to separate from the apostate church if she would not clear itself from the pagan falsehood and idolatry. But they then became the enemies of the false church and soon they were being excommunicated and called 'heretics' or worse. We then see the laws being put in place for this apostacy, as in 313 AD, the Edict of Milan ordered the restoration of property to the Christians. But it was quickly seized upon and twisted to secure the imperial recognition and the legal establishment of the Catholic Church.

By the the sixth century the papacy had become firmly established and the Papacy taken charge without any scriptural authority. Its seat of power was fixed in the imperial city, and the bishop of Rome was declared to be the head over the entire church. It is one of the leading doctrines of this apostate church is that the pope is the visible head of the universal church of Christ, invested with supreme authority over bishops and preachers in all the world. And we see that the pope has been given the very titles of divinity, called the ‘Lord God the Pope,’ and has been declared infallible.

The only power in history that clearly fits all these prophecies is the Papacy and this was clear to the Bible scholars from the Middle Ages on, and even today, But now as most churches of the Reformation have started to drift back to Rome under the drive to ecumenism it puts out, most Christians have moved away from this interpretation.

Sorry, I don't believe historicism has a leg to stand on.

 

[Trekson]

Are you the shop keeper and the people who come into the shop? No. An olive tree is different than a candlestick. There is a difference between a prophet, and a church the prophet gives his prophecies to.




That is a normal, improper, uneducated reading that doesn't understand what a candlestick is.

It's doesn't matter what a candlestick "is", it's what a candlestick "does" in this prophecy that is important!

 

[ewq1938]

It's doesn't matter what a candlestick "is"

That's false. Of course it matters else people will make up whatever they want about the candlesticks.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


As you see, there are two of one thing and two of another.




------------------one witness------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witness".

So what are olive trees?


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


"What are these two olive trees"


Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


"These are the two anointed ones"


And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

ones:

1121

01121 ben {bane}

from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


What are the two candlesticks?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


"and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.

 

[Trekson]

That's false. Of course it matters else people will make up whatever they want about the candlesticks.

Revelation 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, AND the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


"the two olive trees" AND "the two candlesticks"


As you see, there are two of one thing and two of another.




------------------one witness------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

We have 4 altogether that compose the "two witness".

So what are olive trees?


Zechariah 4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?


"What are these two olive trees"


Zechariah 4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zechariah 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


"These are the two anointed ones"


And olive trees represent anointed people. So, the two olive trees that form ONE WITNESS are two individuals that have been anointed.


Zechariah 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Two anointed ones. To be anointed simply means to be blessed with the gifts of the Holy spirit, especially with knowledge which includes knowledge of the future known as prophecy. "ones" means individuals, there are two individuals being spoken of.

ones:

1121

01121 ben {bane}

from 01129; TWOT - 254; n m

AV - son 2978, children 1568, old 135, first 51, man 20, young 18,
young + 01241 17, child 10, stranger 10, people 5, misc 92; 4906

1) son, grandson, child, member of a group
1a) son, male child
1b) grandson
1c) children (pl. - male and female)
1d) youth, young men (pl.)
1e) young (of animals)
1f) sons (as characterisation, ie sons of injustice [for un-
righteous men] or sons of God [for angels]
1g) people (of a nation) (pl.)
1h) of lifeless things, ie sparks, stars, arrows (fig.)
1i) a member of a guild, order, class

----------------one witness--------------second witness------------
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.


What are the two candlesticks?

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.


"and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches"


Candlesticks represent churches which are groups of Christians.

Sorry but the word "and" is saying they are the fulfillment of both and the mention of the "two" previously confirms that! The verse doesn't add anyone else. If you were to take a poll, I guarantee that over 95% would agree w/ my understanding of what the verse is saying.

 

[ewq1938]

Sorry but the word "and" is saying they are the fulfillment of both and the mention of the "two" previously confirms that! The verse doesn't add anyone else. If you were to take a poll, I guarantee that over 95% would agree w/ my understanding of what the verse is saying.

Which doesn't mean anything at all.

There is no way the symbol of the olive trees feeding the olive oil lamps can also be the lamps themselves. That's like saying the gas pump is also the car.

 

[Hobie]

Sorry, I don't believe historicism has a leg to stand on.

And yet the Bible proves it true... Daniel 2:39

 

[Davy]

You have a serious pride issue without knowledge and a ready tongue for blaspheming others. When you want to learn what I mean about anything you can ask. Politely. In the meantime I have no use for you.

That is a sad example of trying to express intelligent debate when it instead shows your ignorance. It's obvious you have no intention of staying with The Scriptures.

 

[Davy]

No, only this polititical-religious entity has survived and is fulfilling the prophecy and will continue to the end when she will be destroyed right as Gods Word says.

You are listening to 'MEN's doctrines, and NOT God in His Word.

I implore you to quit believing what those men say that you listen to, and instead get into God's Word for yourself asking Him for understanding instead.

The Babylon Harlot for the end is JERUSALEM in a false IDOL worship state. That is what Jesus showed for the time of "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:15-26, and what Apostle Paul showed for that same time of the end per 2 Thessalonians 2, and also what Apostle John was shown in Revelation, especially Revelation 11 and 13 and 17.

 

[Trekson]

Which doesn't mean anything at all.

There is no way the symbol of the olive trees feeding the olive oil lamps can also be the lamps themselves. That's like saying the gas pump is also the car.

And yet the Bible proves it true... Daniel 2:39

vs. 39 - Greece, vs. 40 - Rome, vs. 41-44 - still awaiting fulfillment

 

[Adam]

Babylon is any secular government which is not of God but is of this world.

 

[ewq1938]

Babylon is any secular government which is not of God but is of this world.

Babylon represents religious people not secular.