Romans 6:22

[Michiah-Imla]

The Bible gives us MORE than enough evidence of Jesus's divinity

You know, I’m not really interested one way or the other in the discussion of the trinity.

But I can throw just as many verses that challenge your literal take on the scriptures you listed (which are good ones I admit).

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:17)

“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” (Galatians 4:4)

“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9)

I stand with the language of the Bible.

Phrases like “holy trinity”, “Jesus is God”, etc., are all unbiblical phrases.

 

[Jim B]

Listen,

i appreciate that you are a sensitive person.
However,.... dont pick sides....dont play sides........only pick truth.

Come to My Threads to get truth you have not yet understood.
Or to ask a question.
If you finger point some heresy at me, then you can't learn here and it'll just be chaos for you.
And, when im very direct with you, that is exactly what it has to be, as here is the thing so that you can get more light, Johann.

A.) Theology has to be exactly right, or its exactly wrong.

There is no place found in the word of God for..this.

"well, here is what i think".

And one more thing about Jesus who said this.....
He said there were many things he wanted to teach the 11 Disciples., but they were not ready to hear....could not deal with the revelation at that time.

So.....What did Jesus do about that, as he had to die on the Cross, and go Home to Heaven.

Here is what He did, Johann,

Jesus said...from Heaven...

"Paul is a chose vessel unto me, and he is the apostle to the gentiles".

...See that? That is how JESUS gives to us those things that the early disciples who walked with him, were not yet able to receive.

This is why Paul told you. "follow ME, as i follow Christ".
No other apostle said that.....only Paul

Paul was sent to us by Jesus, and he wrote all the Church Doctrine, everything about the "Gifts of the Spirit" and how to deal with your wife, and how to choose a Minister and build a church and all about Tithing.. and so much more.
The Holy Spirit is the revealer...........but PAUL is your TEACHER, and he's not alive down here, but people like me, who are very few now in these "great falling away"... end times, are still preaching Pauline Theology.
Its rare now to find it Brother.
Grab it and hold on firmly.

I was born a Jew; both my parents were Jews. Are you saying that what Paul (a Jew) wrote is not applicable to me?

 

[Jim B]

The 5 Foundational Truths of Revelation​

The Hierarchy of Truths​

The Deposit of Faith - much like a house - exists according to a Hierarchy of Truths, wherein some truths are more foundational than other truths. The latter rest upon the former as the 2" x 4" studs constituting the frame of a home rest upon the concrete foundation and the plumbing. Before the frame is built, the concrete must be poured, and even before the pouring, the first pipes for the plumbing must be set in place. With regard to catechesis, the existence of a hierarchy of truths does not mean some truths are more true than others.
Rather, it means that for an effective pedagogy (or, method of teaching), the catechist must lay the foundation first and teach the remainder of the deposit with the foundation always in mind, connecting the pieces.

5 Foundational Truths​

In order for newbies to get a solid hold on the Deposit of Faith, it is critical to show them how all of the truths are grounded in several foundational truths. These truths are contained in one significant paragraph within the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"God, infinitely perfect and blessed in himself, in a plan of sheer goodness freely created man to make him share in his own blessed life. For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man. He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength. He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church. To accomplish this, when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son as Redeemer and Savior. In his Son and through him, he invites men to become, in the Holy Spirit, his adopted children and thus heirs of his blessed life." (CCC, #1)​

​

These five foundational truths of revelation are invoked throughout the Catechism and provide a framework in which all doctrine finds its proper context. They are:

1. The Blessed Trinity: God is an eternal loving communion of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
2. The Person of Jesus: A divine person who took on human nature in the Incarnation
3. The Paschal Mystery: the suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ
4. The Dignity of the Human Person: made in the image and likeness of God
5. The Church: the Body of Christ brought to life in the Holy Spirit

Breaking It Down​

Let's take a look at each of these foundational truths individually.

The Blessed Trinity
All creation comes from the Trinity, receives its truth, goodness and beauty as a reflection of God's nature, and finds its end in the Trinity. Therefore, it makes sense that all reality should be understood in terms of the Trinity. Human dignity flows from its being made in the likeness of the Trinity. Holy Matrimony participates in the inner life of the Trinity. Our being male and female reflects the Trinity (e.g., the Theology of the Body). Eternal life consists in living in the bosom of the Trinity.

The Person of Jesus
Pope John Paul II tells in in Catechesi Tradendae (On Catechesis in Our Time): "At the heart of catechesis we find, in essence, a Person, the Person of Jesus of Nazareth" (CT #5). Everything is summed up in Jesus. Everything must be taught in relation to him. The Mosaic Law prepared Israel for Jesus. Jesus is the center of history. Jesus is the fulfillment of divine revelation. Jesus makes the Father visible. Jesus sends us the Holy Spirit. Jesus governs over his Church as its invisible head. The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. Mary's importance flows from her relation to her Son.

The Paschal Mystery
The Paschal Mystery sheds light on every truth. It reveals God's love for us. It is the means by which we are saved. Mary shared in Jesus' suffering. The grace of the resurrection is communicated through the Sacraments. We share in Christ's priesthood. It serves as the foundation of redemptive suffering. The Church is formed from the side upon the Cross. Jesus teaches us how to be self-less lovers from his work upon the Cross.

The Dignity of the Human Person
The dignity of the human person springs from the remarkable fact that, starting from the beginning, the sublime love among the three Persons of the Trinity, needing nothing else, nevertheless overflowed with a desire for other persons to share in their divine love. God crown creation with the creation of man. Being made in God's image makes us capable of receiving his life through the salvation that flows from the Redemption. The Christian moral life flows from our human dignity. Holiness consists in being formed into the image of Christ, who is the eternal image of the Father.

The Church
God created the world for the sake of the Church. Jesus suffered, died, and rose from the dead in order to create and imbue the Church with his divine life. The Church is God's chosen instrument of salvation and the dispenser of the Sacraments. Mary is the Mother of the Church. The Holy Spirit guides and animates the Church. The liturgy is the public worship of the Church and unites the Church in heaven with the Church on earth. God prepared Israel in the Old Testament to be united with the Gentiles in the Church. The Church safeguards the Deposit of Faith and faithfully hands it on from one generation to the next.

What Does This Mean Practically?​

The ordering of teachings within the catechumenal process requires a firm understanding of the foundational truths and the way in which all other truths flow from them. These foundational truths, then, should be laid out at the beginning and referred back to during subsequent sessions. In this way, the catechist can provide participants with an overarching framework in which the entire Deposit of Faith can and must be understood.

source

I am not a Catholic, but I found this to be very beautifully written and was blessed by reading it.

However, I am confused about one single sentence: "Mary shared in Jesus' suffering." How/when/where did Mary share in Jesus' suffering? Of course she agonized watching her child being crucified, but that is not the same as being crucified.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You know, I’m not really interested one way or the other in the discussion of the trinity.

But I can throw just as many verses that challenge your literal take on the scriptures you listed (which are good ones I admit).

“For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” (John 3:17)

“But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” (Galatians 4:4)

“In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.” (1 John 4:9)

I stand with the language of the Bible.

Phrases like “holy trinity”, “Jesus is God”, etc., are all unbiblical phrases.

The verses you presented only solidify the Trinitarian position.

But the fact that you couldn't address a SINGLE verse I presented did NOT go unnoticed . . .

 

[Michiah-Imla]

The verses you presented only solidify the Trinitarian position.

Nope.

The verses I presented solidify the mystery:

“…the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;” (Colossians 2:2)

But the fact that you couldn't address a SINGLE verse I presented did NOT go unnoticed . . .

 

[Illuminator]

You know, I’m not really interested one way or the other in the discussion of the trinity.

Why? Because you deny It?

It doesn’t say: “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ God?”

It DOES say Jesus is God all over the NT.

Jesus Christ's Divinity - Some of Many Examples - Scripture Catholic

Contents1 Scripture1.1 I. Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son1.2 II. Jesus Christ’s Witnesses Claim that Jesus is God1.3 III. Jesus Christ Claims to be God1.4 IV. Jesus’ Miracles Testify that He is God1.5 V. Jesus Christ is Worshiped2 Tradition / Church Fathers2.1...

www.scripturecatholic.com

Your assembly, the Protestants, and all the other Bible perverting reprobate assemblies will stand before God one day and answer for their deceitful works.

I notice that anti-trinitarians are also anti-Protestant. Enough of your bible-worshipping fanaticism, arrogantly judging Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox out of sheer pride. Back to the iggy bin you go!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Why? Because you deny It?

Because not one inspired writer declared plainly that Jesus was God. Much less elucidate on a “trinity”. Nor did any of the inspired writers make the “trinity” an issue to divide over.

But it is obvious that something amazing was going on in the relationship between the Son of God and God the Father.

The trinitarian can cite strong evidence from the scriptures, but so can the anti-trinitarian.

And God has allowed it to be this way.

I’m neutral on this issue.

But I’ll support either sides evidence as valid.

 

[Illuminator]

Because not one inspired writer declared plainly that Jesus was God. Much less elucidate on a “trinity”. Nor did any of the inspired writers make the “trinity” an issue to divide over.

But it is obvious that something amazing was going on in the relationship between the Son of God and God the Father.

The trinitarian can cite strong evidence from the scriptures, but so can the anti-trinitarian.

And God has allowed it to be this way.

I’m neutral on this issue.

But I’ll support either sides evidence as valid.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Another one who can’t prove me wrong and runs to the ignore feature

“For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.” (Luke 21:15)

Cowards…

At least when I expose @Illuminator in the future the reader will see no responses from @Illuminator . Letting truth stand unchallenged.

 

[Behold]

Not an answer to my question. For some reason, you deny that a man once rescued from a life threatening situation can never be in a life threatening situation again.

I can teach you, but i can't learn it for you, Wrangler.

You are not willing to understand that being born again, is not a situation you can end by bad behavior.
This is because your idea of Salvation, is to try to keep it based on your behavior.
And that is not God's plan of redemption through Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross.
So, you first have to understand the Blood Atonement, and then we can move into Hebrews and 1 John, and so forth.
But not until.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

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“Then said they, Come, and let us devise devices against Jeremiah; for the law shall not perish from the priest, nor counsel from the wise, nor the word from the prophet. Come, and let us smite him with the tongue, and let us not give heed to any of his words.” (Jeremiah 18:18)

“Give heed to me, O LORD, and hearken to the voice of them that contend with me.” (Jeremiah 18:19)

 

[Michiah-Imla]

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“…they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.” (Zechariah 7:11)

“Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.” (Acts 7:57-58)

I love how the Bible shows you the behavior of stubborn heretics…

 

[Wrangler]

You are not willing to understand that being born again, is not a situation you can end by bad behavior.

It's not about understanding but not agreeing with the false doctrine of OSAS.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

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“Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.

For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.” (Jeremiah 23:9-11)

And somehow we are to believe that the Catholic Church hasn’t fallen into corruption…

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED also accommodates these wicked things.

What a mess!

 

[Michiah-Imla]

It's not about understanding but not agreeing with the false doctrine of OSAS.

“I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.” (Jeremiah 23:14)

ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED in action.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Stop listening to ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED preachers:

“…Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.” (Jeremiah 23:16-17)

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not a Catholic, but I found this to be very beautifully written and was blessed by reading it.

However, I am confused about one single sentence: "Mary shared in Jesus' suffering." How/when/where did Mary share in Jesus' suffering? Of course she agonized watching her child being crucified, but that is not the same as being crucified.

Amen.

It shows a lack of respect or understanding of the cross..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's not about understanding but not agreeing with the false doctrine of OSAS.

This is where people come to a standstill

They are trying to argue some doctrine. and not what the Bible says.

until they get off this idea that they must fight this so called doctrine they hate.. nothing anyone says will them consider any other view

 

[Johann]

I love how the Bible shows you the behavior of stubborn heretics…

Mat 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?

Mat 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Mat 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you.


1. That those who are most censorious of others, are usually more notorious and culpable themselves, if not for the same sins, yet for others of equal if not greater magnitude.

2. That it is notorious hypocrisy to spy smaller faults in others, and not to see greater in ourselves.

3. That it is notorious impudence to pretend to censure and judge others for sins in which we live ourselves.

4. That there is no such way to teach us charity in not hastily, rashly, or too severely judging others, as to look first into our own hearts and ways, and seeing if we have not the same or greater failings. Our charity in this kind should begin at home.

J.

 

[charity]

So then put it in simple terms. You are teaching you have been made free from sin- define that in very simple terms. Cuz you sound just like the rest of the sinless perfection crowd.

'Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him,
that the body of sin might be destroyed,
that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin.'
(Romans 6:6-7)

Hello @Ronald Nolette,

I believe that you are misunderstanding the writer of the OP. For he is not advocating sinless perfection.

The believer in the Lord Jesus Christ has a 'standing' before God, His sins have been forgiven him, and he is now regarded as 'holy and without blame' (Ephesians 1:4) before the Father: not because of anything he has done, but because of the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son on his behalf. He is accepted in the Beloved, and is complete in Him (Colossians 2:10). He has been given the spirit of sonship, whereby he can call God, 'Father', and has a glorious hope that cannot be taken from him (Romans 8:15). All of this is received by faith.

We are told to 'reckon' as God 'reckons' and reckon ourselves 'to be dead indeed unto sin but alive unto God' (Romans 6:11). That is all that @Behold is doing.

God reckons us to have died with Christ, been buried, quickened, raised and ascended with Christ, and to be seated with Him at His right hand. When He who is our life appears, then we, who are members of His Body, will appear there with Him (Colossians 3:4). We reckon on this by faith, for we walk by faith and not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7), in the spirit (Romans 8:9).

Our flesh is made up of so many lbs in weight, is prone to sin, and will be with us until death (Romans 6): but we are no longer in the flesh but in the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells within us (Romans 8:9),

'All praise to the glory of His grace'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris