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Behold

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Hi Chris:

If the OP was talking about our position in
Christ

That's my Thread.

"being now MADE FREE FROM SIN" is our "Position IN CHRIST".

And we can thank JESUS for that "gift of salvation" as He shed His blood for us to make it happen.

Welcome to Salvation..

ITS a "GIFT".


Its the heretics on this Thread and on every christian forum, who are ranting about their position : = always found as trying to keep themselves saved.
Why?
Because they dont actually trust in Christ.

This is why they post and post and post about "here is what you have to do"". Here is how you persevere. Here is how you try to Keep Yourself Saved, now that your faith is broken, as proven by the FACT that you dont believe that Jesus keeps you saved......

= And They can thank John Calvin's "ministers" for leading them directly into their broken faith.

2 Corinthians 11:15
 
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Behold

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Circular reasoning, deflecting, and you have not read the post brother, if you did, Calvinism was not the topic.

Calvinism is your topic.

That's a bit of circular reasoning, but mostly its a demonic stronghold in your mind.
This happened to you, because you did not obey Hebrews 13:9, that says you must establish your heart with GRACE... The Grace of God.
If you dont, then "doctrines of devils' will take you and you will become their minister.
That is what has happened to you, as that is CALVINISM.
Its demonic.

Paul refers to this fallen Believer....as being "in the flesh", having "fallen from Grace".
And 2000 yrs ago, this same demonic teaching was ruining believer's faith.
Some of them are found in the Epistle to the Galatians.
They had what you are teaching, because someone had ruined their faith.
Paul refers to this situation... as being "bewitched".

Calvin's theology is an enemy of the Cross and you are here teaching it, Johann.
So, here is the problem.... Galatians 1:8

See yourself yet?
 
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Michiah-Imla

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we can thank JESUS for that "gift of salvation" as He shed His blood for us to make it happen.

“…thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:20-22)

coffee:
 

Behold

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“…thou standest by faith.

Yes, as "God has counted faith as righteousness".


Proof?

The believer is born again.

To be born again, means that God has taken your faith, in that instant, and performed the divine exchange.
Your sin, becomes..>"God hath made Jesus to be sin for us"..
And God's righteousness, becomes the born again, as "the righteousness of God in Christ". "being now made free from sin".

This is not a process.
Its the new birth that manifests a "new Creation in Christ."

There is your Son/Daughter of God.

Welcome to: " the GIFT of Salvation"
 

Michiah-Imla

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This is not a process.
Its the new birth that manifests a "new Creation in Christ.

“If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away…” (Colossians 1:23)

“…if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:6)

“…the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Hebrews 10:38)
 

Behold

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1.) “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away…” (Colossians 1:23)

2.) “…if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:6)

3.) “…the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.” (Hebrews 10:38)

Thank you for the verses...

Your 3rd post is what a heretic will teach you as how to lose salvation, but the verse does not say anything about salvation.

It only states God's point of view regarding God's Soul.

Here is the best way to understand the verse.... "The Jusitifed, shall live eternally because God has accepted their faith in Christ to Justify them, as this is "justification by Faith."
I would teach this verse also, as .....God can't have any pleasure is making you His Born Again Child, if you do not give Him your faith, in His only Begotten Son.
Why no pleasure.?
Because the born again are the heritage of the Lord, and this is God's pleasure, as you are joining Him.
No Faith, no joining, no Salvation.

Your 2nd verse..... you posted it out of context, and so did your commentary, Michiah-Imla.

Here is the context......"""verse 8 : Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:""

See that? That is who your verse is talking to.....and they are not saved... These are those same Hebrews.

A key for you, when you get ready to really study the word, is to read the verses before your verse and after, and then you wont post verses out of context, most of the time.


And your 1st verse.... the context is....>"if you continue in the faith, grounded and settled".

And who would not?
That would be the person that is this....>"some seed fell on thorny ground".........

See that?
That is a has faith for a while then the cares of this world.....

That person was never actually born again....... their faith was not GROUNDED, because it had no ROOT....
 

Johann

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Calvinism is your topic.

That's a bit of circular reasoning, but mostly its a demonic stronghold in your mind.
This happened to you, because you did not obey Hebrews 13:9, that says you must establish your heart with GRACE... The Grace of God.
If you dont, then "doctrines of devils' will take you and you will become their minister.
That is what has happened to you, as that is CALVINISM.
Its demonic.

Paul refers to this fallen Believer....as being "in the flesh", having "fallen from Grace".
And 2000 yrs ago, this same demonic teaching was ruining believer's faith.
Some of them are found in the Epistle to the Galatians.
They had what you are teaching, because someone had ruined their faith.
Paul refers to this situation... as being "bewitched".

Calvin's theology is an enemy of the Cross and you are here teaching it, Johann.
So, here is the problem.... Galatians 1:8

See yourself yet?
Let's try again
PERSEVERE

The biblical doctrines related to the Christian life are difficult to explain because they are presented in typically eastern dialectical pairs (see SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE [biblical paradoxes]). These pairs seem contradictory, yet both are biblical. Western Christians have tended to choose one truth and ignore or depreciate the opposite truth. Let me illustrate.

Is salvation an initial decision to trust Christ or a lifetime commitment to discipleship?

Is salvation an election by means of grace from a sovereign God or mankind's believing and repentant response to a divine offer?

Is salvation, once received, impossible to lose, or is there a need for continual diligence?

The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem begins with apparently conflicting passages of the NT:

texts on assurance
statements of Jesus (John 6:37; 10:28-29)
texts on the need for perseverance
statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22;

Mat 10:22 and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


13:1-9,24-30;
Mat 13:3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow.
Mat 13:4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
Mat 13:5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
Mat 13:6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
Mat 13:8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Mat 13:9 He who has ears, let him hear.”



24:13;
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.
Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.
Mat 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Mark 13:13; John 8:31;

Joh 8:31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples,


15:4-10;
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.


Rev. 2:7,17,26;
Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’



3:5,12,21)
Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22;
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

1 Cor. 15:2;
1Co 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
1Co 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

2 Cor. 13:5;
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

Gal. 1:6;
Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

3:4;
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5:4;
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

6:9;
Gal 6:9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

Phil. 2:12;
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,

3:18-20;
Php 3:18 For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.
Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

Col. 1:23; 2
Col 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.





statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27)
statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)

Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65).

Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually.


God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities! See SPECIAL TOPIC: COVENANT and SPECIAL TOPIC: KEEP

Salvation is offered to all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Jesus' death dealt with the fallen creation's sin problem (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus. See SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN

If you would like to read more on this subject from a non-Calvinistic perspective, see

Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)
Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969
Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961


The Bible is addressing two different problems in this area:

(1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives and (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?


The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and VERB TENSES like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7).


I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the PERFECT TENSE VERBS used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.
 

Michiah-Imla

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Your 3rd post is what a heretic will teach you as how to lose salvation

I posted scripture verses.

I didn’t teach anything.

It Seems as though the scriptures are convicting you of something you don’t want to think about…
 

Behold

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Let's try again
PERSEVERE

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power

God does not save us because we "persevere".
God saves us through Christ's Cross, and also gives us Eternal life because we took His son by Faith, and are eternally justified, thereby.
Proof?
Is to be born again.

"Calvinists" line up behind verses they use to teach perseverance, or enduring, or any type of self effort in place of God's Grace.

Another word for Calvin is "heretic" or "legalist" or Cross Rejector.
 

Behold

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“…thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:20-22)

Notice that you verse says to "continue in HIS Goodness".

"HIS is God.
"Goodness" is God's Grace as the Blood Atonement.

Heretics, as you know.... teach that 'HIS" as YOUR effort to try to be good., by keeping the law, and trying to sin and confess to stay saved.
That's Legalism.

Your verses says you remain in God, because of HIS Goodness.
Calvinists and other forms of Cross denying heretics post the verse you used to try to prove themselves as their own "goodness" that God will accept if they do works.
 

Michiah-Imla

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Heretics, as you know.... teach that 'HIS" as YOUR effort to try to be good

Huh?

The scripture tells us to continue in his goodness. That requires our effort to do so.

What’s the problem?

:IDK:

You posted them not to try to prove that salvation can be lost?

The scriptures speak for themselves.

The condition placed on salvation is obvious.
 

Behold

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to continue in his goodness.

That is God's goodness.

That is Christ.

Christ tells us that "apart from me you can do nothing".

This does not mean, "now that you are not born again anymore".....


See those verses?

"continuing in God's Goodness, is How Paul explains.... 2 Corinthians 13

"""Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. "

What is the TEST?

The test is to make certain you have not "fallen from Grace'" into Legalism, Calvinism, or Denominationalism ..or any type of Cult Religion that pretends to be of God.

How can you tell if you have?
You'l be on a forum and in a pulpit telling people that they can lose their salvation.
This is the test "failed"., as that one is "fallen from Grace".
You be all over my Threads trying to twist verses to teach that God's Son's Sacrifice is only as good as you are, and your works.
= FAILED the examination.
= are not continuing in "God's Goodness" as they have replaced it with their SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS = "works and self effort".
 

Johann

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Another word for Calvin is "heretic" or "legalist" or Cross Rejector.
Let me put it this way, you are preaching/teaching a different gospel, no sound doctrines.
You still have not read carefully what I have posted, and the Imperatives contained in the post.
You are not here to be corrected, or allow others to question your motives and what you propagate, any and all disagreements gets labeled as heretic or legalist or Cross rejecter.
I might be a Afrikaner, but stupid I ain't brother.

You will be hearing from me soon, now that I know how to use the quote feature.
Do you know what it means to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?

Or... Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

Note from from Deuteronomy 5:10
 It is a characteristic of Deuteronomy to link obedience to YHWH's covenant to love for YHWH (cf. Deut. 6:4-9; 7:9-11; 10:12-13; 11:1,13,22; 13:3; 19:9; 30:6,16,20).
 YHWH's love is not capricious, but clearly defined. He shows no partiality. His initiating covenant love is maintained by covenant obedience.
 "Keep" (BDB 1036, KB 1581) is the key concept in this chapter (cf. Deut. 5:1,10,12,29,32 and many more times in Deuteronomy). The OT was based on the grace of YHWH and human obedience/performance. YHWH wanted to show human inability to respond appropriately (cf. Galatians 3). The New Covenant (cf. Jer: 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-36) is based on God's gracious initiation and redemption in Christ. Believers are still destined to be righteous (cf. Eph. 1:4; 2:10), but they have been accepted and forgiven by grace through faith and not human merit (cf. Eph. 2:8-9). Now they obey/perform out of a sense of gratitude and family love (i.e., "those who love Me"). The goal is the same, a righteous (Christlike) people, but the mechanism has changed from human performance to Christ's performance (cf. Mark 10:45; 2 Cor. 5:21).
 Another Hebrew root used in Deut. 6:4, "hear" (BDB 1033, KB 1581), also means "hear so as to do/obey." Obedience is the evidence that faithful followers are faithful followers. Note Jesus' words in Luke 6:46! One of the saddest passages in Isaiah describes Israel's inability to obey (cf. Isa. 6:9-13)! also note Jesus' words in Matt. 7:21-23,24-27.

Notes from Deuteronomy 6:1
 Deuteronomy 6, along with the conclusion of chapter 5, could be characterized as a strenuous emphasis on the need for obedience (cf. Deut. 5:29,31,32,33; 6:1,2,3,4,17,24, and 25).
This same emphasis on the need for obedience is repeated in the NT (cf. Luke 6:46; John 14:15,21,23; 15:10; James 2:14-26; 1 John 2:5; 5:2-3). One way that we show Him that we really love Him is that we do what He has told us to do. The focus of this obedience is directed first toward God and then toward our covenant brother/sister. God always takes the initiative in grace (covenant benefits), yet He expects us to obey His covenant requirements!

..........which you classify "as works"




This is true of both the OT and the NT. The NT requirements are
faith
repentance
obedience
service

perseverance

God wants a godly, loving, obedient people to clearly reveal Himself to a fallen world. God wants to attract them through His people to Himself.

......which you classify "as works" yet these are the Imperatives under the law of Christ Jesus which you throw away and advise others to do the same.

You even discard water baptism, an Imperative of Christ the Messiah, and encourage others to do the same.

J.
 

Behold

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Let me put it this way, you are preaching/teaching a different gospel, no sound doctrines.

Read my Thread, and then you'll know what im teaching.
Isn't that obvious?
Its the first post in this Thread i wrote, in case you missed it Johann.

Be sure to use any QUOTE you would like, and we can talk about it.

And there is only one Gospel that is the Truth.
John 14:6 is how it is described.....
However, Its Paul's that is the main idea of the Grace of God.
He calls it "my Gospel" 3x, as Jesus gave it to him personally.
Its the Gospel of the Grace of God.
Its the "preaching of the Cross".
 

Johann

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What is the TEST?
Unless indeed ye be reprobate (ei mēti adokimoi este). Paul challenged his opposers in Corinth to try (peirazete) themselves, to test (dokimazete) themselves, whether they were “in the faith” (en tēi pistei), a much more vital matter for them than trying to prove Paul a heretic. Such tests can be made, unless, alas, they are “reprobate” (adokimoi, the very adjective that Paul held up before himself as a dreadful outcome to be avoided, 1Co_9:27).

Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Examine - Greek, 'Try yourselves.'
Prove your own selves. This should be your first aim, rather than seeking "a proof of Christ speaking in me" (2Co_13:3).
Your own selves. If ye try your own selves ye will see that Christ is in you (Rom_8:10). Finding Christ in yourselves, by faith, ye may believe that He 'speaks in me' (2Co_13:3), by whose ministry ye have received this faith. Compare "we ... in Him" (2Co_13:4). To doubt it would be the sin of Israel, who, after so many experimental proofs of God's presence, still cried (Exo_17:7). "Is the Lord among us or not?" (cf. Mar_8:11.)
Except ye be reprobates. The Greek softens it, 'somewhat reprobates' [ adokimoi (G96)] - i:e., not abiding the "proof" (alluding to the same word in the context). Image from metals (Jer_6:30; Dan_5:27; Rom_1:28).
JFB

Now who is quoting scripture out of context..........
 

Behold

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You even discard water baptism, an Imperative of Christ the Messiah, and encourage others to do the same.


I dont discard Water Baptism.
I just teach it correctly, as Paul teaches it like this...."Jesus sent me not to water baptize".
He didnt say, that it was not to be done, but he places no emphasis on this symbolic situation.

Water Cults, such as "the cult of mary" and the Jehovah's Witness's, teach that water is required for Salvation.
They teach that water causes Salvation.
The NT teaches that the Holy Spirit does that.....not the city water supply.
 

Behold

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Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Do you think you'll ever post something that someone else didnt write, Johann.

Also, if your read 1 Corinthians 6, Paul says that they didnt even know that that Holy Spirit was in them..

They, these born again Christians,.... didnt know it.

So, he is not accusing them of being reprobates, he is admonishing them to not be in the dark, spiritually.

This is... "study to show yourself approved " so that you not be found on a forum, rarely ever being able to post anything that you didnt cut and paste from someone else's commentaries and website, because you are unable to even discuss scripture of your own accord or theological understanding of even the "simplicity that is In Christ".
That would be you, in that verse., Johann, according to your POSTS.

You think on that now Johann...., and i'll be back another time to deal with you and your redundant cut and past, a bit more.


-B
 
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