Shalom, veteran.
Wow. I had no idea you were that far behind in your learning of your Jewish heritage. That's what I mean when I mention your Jewish roots. I'm sorry. Had I known the depth we had to go, I would have taken a different approach. It's just that I really like your take on the 10 lost tribes in post #93, and I thought that meant you knew something about Y'hudah as well.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume. I well understand Judah's history after the split of old Israel, even to today.
Let's start here: The problem with modern Christianity is that they've leaned too far in the opposite direction, presumably from trying to get away from any similarities to the Jewish religion. This all started with the anti-Semitism of the 200s and 300s A.D. The Gentile “Christians” were beginning to out-number the Jewish “Christians,” and they resented the Jewish influence and lordship (as they saw it) over the “Church.” There was such an aversion as to be blind hatred during that time period. They destroyed much of the Syriac versions of the Bible, and the Aramaic versions were almost totally destroyed! They are only now discovering some 1[sup]st[/sup]-century, Aramaic versions of the Bible through archaeology. Aramaic is closely related to Hebrew as
Aram (ancient Syria) is "next door" to northern Isra'el (across the Golan Heights). There are many similarities between the two languages, as close as Portuguese is to Spanish. You can find out more about the research and the re-publishing of the Aramaic version at http://www.aent.org/.
But, there IS a Jewish heritage to Christianity! Yeshua` Himself was a Jew, and was born “King of the Jews”; His disciples were Jews; Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee (Acts 23:6)! Yeshua` said that He was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Isra'el (which was NOT just the 10 tribes, by the way, but all twelve or thirteen tribes, if you include both sons of Yosef, Matt. 15:24), He sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Isra’el (Matt. 10:6), and He said "salvation is of the Jews" (John 4:22). He purposely did not go to any town of the Goyim (Gentiles) and seldom went to the towns of Shomron (Samaria). Yeshua` was an observant Jew, keeping all the Law and the commandments (Matt. 5:17-20; John 15:10). Paul, too, was an observant Jew (Acts 21:23-26; Rom. 11:1; Phil. 3:4-6; 2 Cor. 11:22)
Firstly, Christ Jesus was not, and is not, "king of the Jews". He never admitted to that title they mocked Him with (Matt.27:11-12). That was a sign which Pilate had put up on Christ's cross to mock the Jews who had Him crucified (John 19-19-22). The Jews complained about it. Christ Jesus is King of all Israel, since that's in relation to David's throne on earth which He is to inherit involving ALL the tribes of Israel, and there's more Israelites than just those who call themselves Judah or Jews.
According to Paul in Romans 9 and Ephesians 2, God's Israel now includes believing Gentiles. The lost sheep of the "house of Israel" is not specifically about Jews. The "house of Israel" is a specific title per Old Testament history about the ten tribes of the northern kingdom of israel that had already been scattered out of the holy land prior to Judah going into their Babylon captivity. When Christ said He was not sent but unto the "lost sheep of the house of Israel", He was making a prophetic statement of how The Gospel would eventually be rejected by the Jews at Judea, and instead be received by the lost remnants of the scattered ten tribes, along with Gentiles that would believe (Acts 28). It's what Jesus was talking about also in the parable of the husbandmen of the vineyard (Matt.21).
Christ gave His early disciples two different commissions in The Gospel at two different times. The first was before His crucifixion (Matt.10:5), which was when He told them to not go into any city of the Gentiles. But after His crucifixion, He told them to go and preach The Gospel to ALL nations (Matt.28:19). Amazing that you would leave that difference out while trying to say I'm the one far behind in learning. That second commission was especially concerning the history of Christ's Apostles taking The Gospel to the nations of Asia Minor and Europe after His crucifixion and resurrection. Then from there, The Gospel would go to all other nations.
In John 4:22, Christ made that remark to the Samaritan woman at the well, that salvation was of the Jews, because the only ones of Israel in the land at that time were those of the remnant of Judah that returned from the Babylon captivity which began to call theirselves Jews. The ten tribes, the majority of the people of Israel, had already been scattered to the nations and were not there any longer. He did NOT... mean that Salvation belongs only to the "house of Judah" or Jews, but to all of Israel. Since only a remnant of the house of Judah was left in the land, which was only about a small remnant of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, there wasn't anyone else there of Israel to refer to. The Samaritan woman well understood who the Jews were, because that's who was left in the southern lands around Jerusalem at the time.
Josephus was NOT giving a definition of what a “Jew” is. The word “Jew” simply stems from the Middle English words, “jewe,” “gyu,” or “ju” (spelling was not very strict back then), which in turn came from the Old French words, “juieu” or “juiu,” which came from the Latin word “judaeus,” which came from the Greek word “ioudaios,” which came from the Aramaic word “yehudai,” which came from the Hebrew word “Yahudiy,” derived from the name “Y’hudah” or “Judah!” (In many “Romance languages,” languages that stem from Roman Latin, the “y” sound is mixed/confused with the “zh” sound. Today, we have adopted a more “dzh” sound and write it with the stylized iota “j.”)
The Jewish historian Josephus was very specific that the title of 'Jew' came from the name 'Judah', and when it first began to be used, i.e., by the small remnant of the "house of Judah" that returned to Jerusalem after the Babylon captivity. It was specifically about those of Ezra 2, and it included foreigners. I suspect it was used a little earlier though, most likely right after God had split Israel into two separate kingdoms. The southern kingdom of the "house of Judah" is probably when it really first began to be used by Judah to distinguish themselves apart from the northern kingdom of Israel (ten tribes under king Jeroboam of Ephraim).
So what you're saying there doesn't prove anything against what he declared about that title of 'Jew'. An important thing about the history of that title per Josephus, is that it did NOT involve the ten tribes who had already been scattered prior to the "house of Judah" going into their later Babylon captivity. Judah at Jerusalem involved only the southern "kingdom of Judah" after the split per God's Word (2 Chron.11:17). The northern "kingdom of Israel" made up of the ten tribes were separated from Judah in Solomon's days, and then removed from the holy land (1 Kings 11 thru 2 Kings 18). And it has remained so unto this day, which is why the two sticks prophecy of Ezekiel 37 is still future.
So, strictly speaking, the word “Jew” simply means “a descendant of Y’hudah” or “a descendant of
Judah.” Only since the days of the split during R’chav`am’s (Rehoboam’s) reign has the name been associated with the southern portion of David’s and S
mo’s Kingdom.
True. Which is what I've been saying all along. Josephus was speaking only of the small remnant of Judah that returned to Jerusalem from Babylon as Jews. Yet the majority of the "house of Judah" that went captive to Babylon chose to stay in Babylon, and were then further scattered through the countries, and also per history began using that title of Jew wherever they went. Since those kept their heritage as Israelites while scattered, when the ten tribes did not, what does that reveal to you? That's what God showed would happen (Hosea). Ten tribe Israel would lose their heritage as Israel, while most of Judah would not.
Now, regarding the Babylonian Talmud, you should learn that there were two Torah’s – a written Torah and an oral Torah. Some things were passed on by word of mouth since the days of Mosheh (Moses). I won’t go into examples here, but not all of the details concerning the Tabernacle or the
Temple were written down. Some things were learned from mentors who had learned information from their mentors, etc. It was not until some Isra’elis still living in Bavel (Babylon) after the captivity were running out of people who knew the information that they decided that the oral Torah should also be written down to preserve it for future generations, should the line of mentor succession be broken. This oral tradition or oral Torah became the Talmud, a written record of the oral Torah. The only portion to which we believers in the Messiah Yeshua` should object is the commentary secions by rabbis down through the years since then. As such, we may treat the Talmud as we would … say … the Apocrypha. We may not treat it as we would the rest of the Bible (i.e., as God’s Holy Word), but it is still a good source of information.
That may be what Jewish tradition says, but God through Moses already wrote down the specifics of tabernacle worship per the Old Covenant, even to how the ark of the covenant was to be fashioned. Oral tradition means just that, 'oral traditiion'. The real Torah is God's Holy Writ through Moses. By 'oral tradition', that's how the Jews began getting away from God's Holy Writ, until they formed their own... set of extra-Biblical traditions which Christ rebuked them for. That was especially manifested in Babylon with the Babylonian Talmud, a book of philosphical sage writings only roughly based on Torah tradition. It's the same kind of working as a certain Church system (I won't name) that reveres their own 'traditions' more than the actual written Word of God. By that 'oral tradition' working is also how the Jewish Kabbalistic system came about, a heavily mystical system outside of God's Holy Writ that proposes some very pagan type ideas, showing the Canaanite corruptions mixed among the oral traditiions of the Jews.
After all this happened, THEN Josephus came on the scene. Josephus was a Hellenized Jew. He further ENCOURAGED the Hellenization of Isra’el as a people, as they were incorporated into the
Roman Empire. (Romans actually PREFERRED Koine Greek to Latin and only used Latin in Rome and for matters of state. Most of the civilized world at that time already spoke Koine Greek when Rome came to power, and they – like Alexander the Great – simply assimilated the cultures. That’s why, for the most part, the pantheons of the Greeks and the Romans are basically the same except for the names.) As a Hellenizer, Josephus is not the best authority on the origin or usage of the word “Jew,” anyway. Quite simply, he is biased!
I'm well aware of how many of orthodox Judah hated Josephus, and still hate him today, which certainly is bias on their part. No doubt it's because of what he revealed in his histories, going outside their supposed authority, which makes him all the more credible, and is probably why his histories are often referred to by Christian scholars throughout Christian history, and still today.
Christianity has LOTS of Jewish roots! It is NOT a “falsehood” or a lie! Let’s look at a few examples:
Christianity comes from the word "Christian" which is a title first used at Antioch for the followers of Jesus Christ. The majority of Jews rejected Christ Jesus, and He rejected the Jews' religion exercised by the Pharisees and Sadduccee sects, which proves the distinctness of Christianity apart from Judaism. Just because the word Judaism comes from the name of the tribe of Judah, it does not... mean Judaism represents the same thing as God's Truth in His Holy Writ. Anyone reading Christ's warnings about the Jews' religion concerning their "leaven" doctrines of men should have easily recognized that (Matt.16:6-12).
The concept of baptism is from the Jewish usage of the mikvah, a pool that has constantly flowing water in which to bathe as a purification for sacrificing at the
Temple! This was ORDERED in the Torah of Mosheh! Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) was given this ministry of purification in preparation for the arrival of God’s Messiah, and it has since passed on as an ordnance of the “church,” and some even count it as a “sacrament.”
First mistake, that term 'Jew' was not used until after the split of old Israel into two separate kingdoms per history. In other words, Moses whom God gave His law through, was not a Jew, even though some have tried to move that title all the way back to his days, and even back to Abraham. Moses was a Hebrew. We don't even find that title of Jew used in the KJV Bible until 2 Kings 16.
The various washings required under the Old Covenant Levitical priesthood did include rites of purfication, but not for the remission of sins through Christ Jesus. The baptism for the remission of sins per John the Baptist was to represent The New Covenant under Jesus Christ. Different time, different Covenant. Those symbolic washings of the old Levitical priesthood didn't belong specifically to Judah and the Pharisees anyway. It was unto ALL Israel in the days of Moses. And Judah was not even responsible for administering them per that Old Covenant.
So referring to that as some 'Jewish' thing is supposition. Furthermore, notice the malefactor who believed crucified with Christ didn't have to go through water baptism to be saved. Jesus has The Power to save without water baptism also, but He did set the example for us to do it as He did, which is the reason why Christians still do it today, not as some kind of Jewish thing, but to represent remission of sins through Christ Jesus by The New Covenant of His Blood. And the fact that it is open to all peoples of all nations reveals all the more how that Baptism is not a Jewish thing today. So claiming the various washings per the Old Covenant is one thing, Christian Baptism is another. If not, then maybe you can tell me of an Orthodox Jew under Judaism today that gets baptized of water for remission of sins through Christ Jesus?
The concept of “the Lord’s Supper” or “Communion” or the “Eucharist” comes from the final Passover Supper that Yeshua` shared with His disciples. This “Passover Supper” is known in Jewish circles as the “Pesach Seder,” a feast associated with the exodus from
Egypt. During a Seder, there are four cups of wine served, two before the meal, one during the meal, and one after the meal:
1. The Cup of Sanctification
2. The Cup of Deliverance
3. The Cup of Redemption
4. The Cup of Praise
It was the third cup, the Cup of Redemption, that Yeshua` chose to be a reminder of His sacrifice on the cross. His blood sacrifice became the final atonement for our sins. He chose this to be His last drink before the ordeal He would suffer. He did not drink the fourth cup but said,
Matt. 26:29-30
29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
KJV
Instead, He just sang a “hymn” with them, a “hallel,” or a SONG of “praise,” and then they retired to their camp site.
The concept of Pentecost, the memorial of the giving of the Ruach haQodesh, the Holy Spirit of God, happened upon the fiftieth day since the Passover. (“Pentecost” comes from the Greek word “penteekostee” meaning “fiftieth.”) This JEWISH holiday, kept by the “counting of the omer,” to count when the fiftieth day came, was a commemoration of when the Law was given by God on Mount Sinai! The two holidays coincide! It is the day of the year that God used for both writing the Law of tables of stone and writing the Law on “fleshly tables of the heart” (2 Cor. 3:3)!
That’s just three of the many ways that Christianity has borrowed from its Jewish origins, and the list would be incomplete without mentioning all the prophecies given to the Isra’elis in anticipation of the Messiah’s coming, both as haMashiach ben Yosef, the Messiah son of Joseph (Egypt’s Joseph, not the husband of Mary), the Suffering Messiah (the first Advent or Coming), and as haMashiach ben David, the Messiah son of David, the Victorious, Conquering Messiah, heir to David’s throne (the second Advent or Coming).
There again you make mistakes by trying to group those Old Covenant matters under some 'Jewishness' thing, when those things per the Old Covenant were not given specifically to Judah, but to all the 12 tribes of Israel, the sons of Jacob. Those traditions do not belong specifically to the "house of Judah" or Jews. They belong to all of God's people, all Israel. And now, under Jesus Christ with His having made a change per The New Covenant, it's ludicrous to still want to be wrapped up in those old traditions of the Old Covenant. If you'll notice per 1 Cor.5:7, Jesus Christ BECAME... our Passover sacrificed for us. We are no longer held to following the Old Covenant passover tradition how old Israel did.
All the Torah was given because of transgressions of the people, and to point to Christ's coming to bring The New Covenant. If we try to go back to the old ways per the Old Covenant, the Gentiles would be left out of Christ's Salvation, and even those born of Israel would also! Israel cannot have Salvation without the believing Gentiles on Jesus Christ, and visa versa.
There's nothing wrong with the "traditions of the fathers." That's the oral Torah I was talking about. Yeshua` did not object to the traditions of the fathers; He objected to THEIR traditions, the traditions that THEY, the P'rushiym (Pharisees), started!
Mark 7:7-9
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,
as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And He said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
(KJV)
That kind of thing is what 'oral tradition' causes. Put 20 people in a circle and whisper something to one and tell them to pass it on, and most likely it'll come back corrupted somehow.
And, one should not by hypocritical regarding traditions, either. I dare say that most churches have their own sets of traditions. Some are exceedingly ritualistic and mechanical: two congregational songs, a prayer, another congregational song, a special number presented by a group or a solo, the sermon, and a benediction. Evangelical groups will often throw in an altar call between the sermon and the benediction for people to respond to the message. Many will even write down these traditions in fliers for the people who come so they may follow along and know what to expect and what is expected of them. Is that a bad thing? It depends! It's not a bad thing to be informative, but it may be a bad thing if people are just "going through the motions," and it has become a mindless habit for them to follow.
I whole-heartedly agree, traditions of men among the Christian Churches can be just as bad. For example, the Easter tradition is one such corruption, since the word Easter is not in God's Word (Acts 12:4 word "Easter" is actually the Greek word for passover in the Greek NT manuscripts). Instead, the word Easter comes from an old pagan name for their easter rites of sexual fertility. It's really a shame that word per tradition has come to be used to represent the time of Christ's death and resurrection. However, it may have a teaching purpose for the ten tribes of Israel, to remind them how they had rebelled against God and His Ways which is why they were scattered among the Gentiles, and went fully into Baalism before Christ Jesus came to reveal His Gospel to them. In the Christian west prior to Christ's first coming, they were following all sorts of pagan worship derived from ancient Baalism that originated in Babylon.
Those among Judah today who love the LORD ARE weeping for their nation and their people! And, please, learn to separate between those who "love the LORD" and those who have accepted Yeshua` as God's Messiah for them, who have become believers in Yeshua`. You should know that there is a PROCESS that one goes through in accepting Yeshua`, and it takes time to accomplish this process! While the actual moment of justification by God takes place instantaneously and is thus likened to a human birth, hence the "new birth," there is likewise a period of gestation that precedes the birth, a time of conviction from the Ruach haQodesh through which God instructs a person of his or her need for God's justification. Is it possible to "love the LORD" and be going through the time of conviction without yet experiencing the New Birth? OF COURSE IT'S POSSIBLE! That's why we should treat EVERYONE we meet as at least a POTENTIAL child of God, if he or she is not ACTUALLY a child of God, yet. The Jews are the same way!
But what I was speaking about per Scripture, was of recognizing the crept in unawares that are mentioned all throughout God's Word. Without knowing about that and staying on watch, the seed sowed (Word of God) will never... take root in the minds and hearts of God's people. Got to plough the dirt, clear away the stones, cut down the thorn bushes, and then plant seed in goodly soil. Otherwise one is wasting their time because the seed will always be eaten up by the enemy that creeps in. This is one of Judah's main problems today, as it is also within many of today's Churches. But among those in Christ Jesus that are ever on watch, it is not. Some will always require a rebuking, because Jesus showed we cannot always recognize the 'tares' among His people.
Just because they may "hate" (FEAR) Christianity and Christianity's "Jesus Christ," most of that is because they DO NOT KNOW Yeshua` haMashiach, yet! However, they may respect and love the LORD God - YHVH the real God! It is WRONG to assume that Jews know what and whom they are rejecting when they reject Christianity and Christianity's "Jesus Christ!" Most do NOT have the background to know what and whom they are rejecting! They are merely following the leader, and they FEAR the history of Christianity and the atrocities that have been committed in the name of "Jesus Christ!" Most only know of the Roman Catholic Church as "Christianity" and have no other means by which to know otherwise!
Not all orthodox Jews 'hate' Christianity, even at the behest of their religious elders that do. I know some. And I realize how the majority of them are still blinded today, and will remain so untli Christ's return (per Rom.11). Yet there are others among them that not only hate Christianity, but they literally hate God and all His people. Those are false Jews that have crept in, servants of the devil. Those are the ones mixed among the Jews that have been responsible for atrocities done in early Europe against Christians that caused the Jews to be banned from Europe on several occassions in past history. Those are the ones that could come up with oral traditions that the life of the goyim is worthless and murder of the goy (Gentiles) can be justified if one is a Jew. One of true Judah would never come up with that kind of mockery against God.
Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus, particularly in the State of Isra'el today, are considered "missionaries" (a derogatory term to the Jews there) and are "pariahs" among the religious Orthodox Jews! They are in constant danger from prejudices against them, but they stay there and serve there, considering themselves as emissaries for Yeshua` to the people of Isra'el and Jerusalem! Sure, they follow the traditions of their fathers, but only because God TOLD THEM TO FOLLOW THEM! They are still Jews, after all. Thus, they are to keep the commandments of God - not because the HAVE to do so to be right with God, but because they WANT to do so out of respect to God because they LOVE HIM!
Then they should not be so ready to adopt many of the traditions of those orthodox unbelieving Jews, and claim to be Christians at the same time. I don't see my Christian brethren of Judah as 'Jews', since that word represents more towards the religion of Judaism than it does with a follower of Jesus Christ. They are Israelites, is how I see those of Judah that have believed on Jesus Christ. Remember how Paul rebuked Peter in Galatians for separating away from believing Gentiles when his Israelite brethren from Jerusalem came for a visit. That's a Biblical NT example that we are not to be separate, but one body in Christ Jesus.
Don't fall prey to the same fear out of ignorance that Jews do today from their own fears! You don't have to fear Messianic Jews just because they're DIFFERENT!
I haven't. I realize what Judah's responsibilities in The Gospel and among the Christian nations are today. I recognize God has left much of His history with them, the true traditions from the Old Testament Books apart from the Jews' religion. It's becaue of Bible prophecy in The Old Testament Books that I know that. It's not those among Judah today that concerns me. The one's among Judah today that concerns me, are the 'tares', false Jews. Those should be a concern of yours too, and that was my whole point of my previous post.
