Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[ButterflyJones]

If you don't know how to respond to a particular challenge, but only how to continuing saying what you already believe. Then I'll not offer you any challenges, much less repeat them.

Thank you for choosing to troll elsewhere

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

True. Faith is given to all men that hear, not just those selected at creation to receive it.

And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. (Mark 4)

All that hear receive the word into their hearts. Not all choose to keep the faith of Jesus.

Let me clarify. There is predestination of what those that believe must do to be saved. Predeterminism of who will believe is false.



I.e. you have not response to the challenge.


This makes no sense. He draws all men proves all men are created to be drawn of God. Not all men choose to come to Him, that they might be saved. God does not create some men to resist Him. The first man Adam was not the first one preselected for rebellion. And since all men have sinned as Adam, then all men would be preselected for rebellion, and none were ever prechosen for faith.

Predestinating who will do what, teaches the devil is the creator of all men to rebel against God, since all men have done so.



This is lip service rubbish. There is no fair in creating some to be sheep and some to be goats, and then God calls and draws all just show who he created to be sheep and who He created to be goats.



All souls of men are created by God, and come into the world lightened by Christ. All are His souls and fertile soil to please Him at creation and coming into the world. When men choose to sin against Him, the soul dies and the soil dries out.

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (Rev 4)

No man is created for the good pleasure of God to condemn forever. Your doctrine is a false accusation against the true God, that first loved all men by creating all men equally good in His image.

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Gen 1)

God never creates any creature bad and evil. Not Lucifer, nor Adam, nor any man coming into the world.



Yes, I reject your false doctrine against God the Creator of all things good. It's time for you to say God creates some men bad and evil. Otherwise, your doctrine is only theoretical and false.


He already knows who. Not already determined who.


No soul is missing anything from creation and birth. The question is what did they cast away. They cast away the goodness of God's image created with, and the light of Christ lightened with.




Because they did not want to be chosen of the true God that is love, but chose to be gods themselves. The same as Adam.

If you believe some men are predestined and created differently from other men, then one of those letters is yours.


One of those letters is yours. It's not HOW God prechooses, because he doesn't prechoose. It's only how He knows who will be chosen and who will not. The Father foreknows who will and who won't, because the Word watches to see who will and who will not. God chooses them He sees choosing to believe Him and not other gods. The choice is made at that time, not before.

We disagree ... no need to pursue this futile argument. Go your way. God Bless

 

[Gilligan]

Thank you for choosing to troll elsewhere

No problem. I hate trolling on those that just talk around people anyway. There's no fun nor point in that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you perfect? Have you achieved sinlessness?

Do you honestly think that God requires us to be perfect or sinless, when that is impossible?

Were Christ’s Apostles perfect and sinless......yet the fact that sin and imperfection are an inextricable part of humanity does not excuse disobedience. The sin that is in us only offends God when we willfully practice what God’s word tells us not to do. If we are trying to the best of our imperfect ability to obey God in all things, then that is all that God requires of us for now......perfection and sinlessness will come at the end of the thousand year rule of the Kingdom.

Christians are a brotherhood who must all be in agreement (1 Cor 1:10)....and they must teach the truth about God, and about the role that his Christ has played, and will play, in the future outworking of his will and purpose.

We cannot be “Christians” in isolation and in disagreement with other “Christians”. Being disunited proves that God’s spirit is absent....it is a uniting force, not a divisive one.

When Christ comes to judge the world, who among those who claim him as their “Lord” will he accept and recognise as his own? (Matt 7:21-23) “Many” will be shocked at his rejection because he will tell them that he NEVER knew them......”never” means “not ever”. They were not found to be “doing the will” of his Father.

So tell me what you believe is the will of the Father?

 

[Gilligan]

We disagree ... no need to pursue this futile argument. Go your way. God Bless

That's one down. Now just three others to go. God bless you too.

 

[ButterflyJones]

No problem. I hate trolling on those that just talk around people anyway. There's no fun nor point in that.

There is no opportunity for discussion when a troll is admittedly participating on a Christians discussion site.

At least you recognize your sin of trolling. That's a first step.

 

[Gilligan]

Do you honestly think that God requires us to be perfect or sinless, when that is impossible?

You don't need to back down to fault finders.

Having a perfect heart and right spirit with God, and not sinning with works of the flesh, is the grace of God, washing of the blood of the Lamb, and the rule of Christ.

The only imperfection we have in this life, is the same as Jesus as a man. We can be tempted with unclean thoughts and vain imaginations from the devil, but like Jesus and unlike the world, we no longer take the devils' thought to be our own and act upon them.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6)

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10)

..perfection and sinlessness will come at the end of the thousand year rule of the Kingdom.

True perfection of the immortal body, and of the mind only come with the resurrection of the church. That is when we will have bodies like Christ after His resurrection, and minds like God on the throne who cannot even be tempted to sin, much less commit sin.

 

[ButterflyJones]

You don't need to back down to fault finders.

Having a perfect heart and right spirit with God, and not sinning with works of the flesh, is the grace of God, washing of the blood of the Lamb, and the rule of Christ.

The only imperfection we have in this life, is the same as Jesus as a man. We can be tempted with unclean thoughts and vain imaginations from the devil, but like Jesus and unlike the world, we no longer take the devils' thought to be our own and act upon them.

Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof. (Matthew 6)

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. (2 Cor 10)






True perfection of the immortal body, and of the mind only come with the resurrection of the church. That is when we will have bodies like Christ after His resurrection, and minds like God on the throne who cannot even be tempted to sin, much less commit sin.

I would suggest when you confess to trolling Christians you cannot then hope to be credible trying to defend your perspective on so less perfection through Christ.

That's the last I'll say to you. Christians are very discerning. We see you.


(A P. s. Fun fact to fellow Christians. Gilligan's Island, the classic TV show, featured in its cast of characters them portraying the 7 deadly sins in scripture.)

 

[Gilligan]

There is no opportunity for discussion when a troll is admittedly participating on a Christians discussion site.

At least you recognize your sin of trolling. That's a first step.

Now who's trolling. I'd already forgotten about you, until you came running back. Look, you are out of arguments and give no response to challenges, so instead of saying so, you accuse me falsely of trolling. Simple. Honestly, I have no interest in challenging someone's teaching, if they refuse to be challenged. Don't worry. You won't be hearing anymore challenges from me. If you ever say something I agree with, I'll be glad to say so. Other than that, I have no more interest in trying to correct anything you say.

 

[ScottA]

No dots to connect. Sorry. Neither you nor me were created and in Christ before God created anything nor anyone. God's word always makes perfect sense and doesn't defy reality.

That is just you contradicting what is written in the scriptures and claiming that "Jesus Christ is" not "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you honestly think that God requires us to be perfect or sinless, when that is impossible?

ah, so are you making excuses for not obeying Jesus in all things? Since that is what you claimed others did

 

[Gilligan]

That is just you contradicting what is written in the scriptures and claiming that "Jesus Christ" not "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

The argument is becoming silly. Jesus Christ is the same before and during creation forever. We are to be the same as He yesterday, today, and forever.

But we were not anything in any yesterday before our own creation, especially not before any creation of Christ.

Are you saying you are as Christ the Word, that was with God in the beginning, so that you now have become the Word made flesh? You came down from heaven to be conceived in the womb of a woman? Or are you saying after your catching up to paradise, you are now descended from heaven?

If so, that's fine by me. But if you have any new revelation of truth, that Scripture does not now confirm, then you've ascended a little to high in your own mind. One such revelation being, that you were with the Word and with God in the beginning. I wasn't. And if that has been revealed to you while caught up, then I'm afraid you've been talking to the wrong angel.

But in any case, has these things changed your manner of life at all? Are you now cleansed of all filthiness of the spirit and flesh? Are you now delivered from doing any unrighteousness and works of the flesh? Are you now one of the saints, as Peter, ensured in your faith and salvation to never sin and fall? If so, that is a good thing. If not, then you need to go back up there and talk to someone else. I'm not joking. I do not question nor doubt any person's stated experiences. It's just a matter of who it is experienced with.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

There is no opportunity for discussion when a troll is admittedly participating on a Christians discussion site.

At least you recognize your sin of trolling. That's a first step.

Gilligan got ship wrecked on that island, remember? He's just lost, cut him some slack. God is trying to teach him something. He can't figure out if God will get him off that island or if He only has His free will to author of his own destiny.

 

[ScottA]

The argument is becoming silly. Jesus Christ is the same before and during creation forever. We are to be the same as He yesterday, today, and forever.

But we were not anything in any yesterday before our own creation, especially not before any creation of Christ.

Are you saying you are as Christ the Word, that was with God in the beginning, so that you now have become the Word made flesh? You came down from heaven to be conceived in the womb of a woman? Or are you saying after your catching up to paradise, you are now descended from heaven?

If so, that's fine by me. But if you have any new revelation of truth, that Scripture does not now confirm, then you've ascended a little to high in your own mind. One such revelation being, that you were with the Word and with God in the beginning. I wasn't. And if that has been revealed to you while caught up, then I'm afraid you've been talking to the wrong angel.

But in any case, has these things changed your manner of life at all? Are you now cleansed of all filthiness of the spirit and flesh? Are you now delivered from doing any unrighteousness and works of the flesh? Are you now one of the saints, as Peter, ensured in your faith and salvation to never sin and fall? If so, that is a good thing. If not, then you need to go back up there and talk to someone else. I'm not joking. I do not question nor doubt any person's stated experiences. It's just a matter of who it is experienced with.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

You are either imagining things I didn't say, or putting words in my mouth.

What I said was that Jesus Christ was "before the foundation of the world", and "the same yesterday, today, and forever", just as the scriptures do. Are you with me so far?

Then I indicated that those who are "in Him" who was "before the foundation of the world" and "the same yesterday, today, and forever" are scripturally and rightfully defined as also being "in Him" "before the foundation of the world." Which then is confirmed in Revelation wherein the context encompasses all "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this"--meaning everything written--including us and all of creation, is "The Revelation of Jesus Christ", "the First and the Last."

Now, I know that no one has previously put it all together in the way I have presented it--but nonetheless, it is the way of God, just as it is written, saying "But the word of the Lord was to them, “Precept upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little,” That they might go and fall backward, and be broken And snared and caught."

Notice that Isaiah says "was" (past tense). Why does he say "was" before the word of God was even complete? Godly grammatical error? --No, but because, is "was", just as Jesus "was", --"before the foundation of the world."

I submit therefore, that having been "caught" off guard by what may first seem crazy (just as drinking Christ's blood and eating His flesh was first rejected), does not make these things untrue, but worth considering, that they may be confirmed in you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

ah, so are you making excuses for not obeying Jesus in all things? Since that is what you claimed others did

Is that what I said? If you are going to respond to my posts then it would help if you understood them and quoited them accurately....what did I say next that answers your question...?

"the fact that sin and imperfection are an inextricable part of humanity does not excuse disobedience. The sin that is in us only offends God when we willfully practice what God’s word tells us not to do. If we are trying to the best of our imperfect ability to obey God in all things, then that is all that God requires of us for now......perfection and sinlessness will come at the end of the thousand year rule of the Kingdom. "

Got it now?

 

[The Learner]

The fundamental unbelief of man, is that he's not created in God's image, and takes for granted the fact that man has intelligence from God alone. That's why pseudo sciences try to find the same intelligence in animals.

what does the image of god indlude?

 

[The Learner]

No I won't. I've made my challenge to your predertermist reading of John 15. Since you avoid it and just repeat your own version of predeterminism, then I'm not interested.

what is the correct definition predeterminism theology speaking?

 

[The Learner]

But you don't have a response to the main one, that I have seen predeterminists use most.



And here proves predeterminism is false. All men are drawn of the Spirit to repent and believe the gospel:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. (Acts 17)

Your doctrine is false, and is an accusation against the God that is love, and first loved us all by creating us all in His image, not just some.



Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (Matthew 7)

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (Prov 1)

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jerem 29)

Predeterminism mocks them that seek the Lord, even in their blindness, because they want to find Him with a whole heart.



It's a mysterious process made of a false doctrine. Finding the Lord is nothing mysterious at all: He died for all men, draws all men, and those who seek Him with the heart shall find Him.

Simple.

It's how I found the Lord, and the same way for all who do. All are created to do so, but not all do. Calvin's predeterminism was a man's foolish effort to answer why some don't, that has no answer, because God doesn't even understand it.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 18)

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 8:35)

A prederminist makes a hypocritical fool of God, who supposedly creates some men for the good and honor and some for the evil and dishonor, and then asks Himself and others, why they do the evil.

It's just the nature of being created with free will to believe and obey God or not.

All people are not in the same place at the same time, thus all is limited.

 

[The Learner]

I'm not sure what this means, but so long as God isn't deciding beforehand who the winners and losers will be, before creating them that way, then it has some merit. What's the 'eternalist point of view'? Isn't that just another way of saying omniscience?

The point of omniscience is that the Father knows all things in the beginning, because the Word has already watched all things from beginning to end. God knows because He has watched who does what, not because He has determined who does what by creating them that way.

I am tired and will be kicked oof soon, eternalist point of view is basically, texts speaking of eternal from God's direct knowledge, texts warning us about backslidding and running the race are from limited human pastoral understanding of scripture. Both types of texts are inspired by God.

 

[The Learner]

No dots to connect. Sorry. Neither you nor me were created and in Christ before God created anything nor anyone. God's word always makes perfect sense and doesn't defy reality.

From one of the Jewish points of view human souls were created during the seven days and held someplace, maybe Pardise, Michigan.